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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 03:39:14
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Ginjitzu wrote: Charistoph wrote:Ginjitzu wrote:Well as the OP only mentioned GW and CA2019, and did not mention ITC, I presume all of this ITC discussion is off topic, no?
Actually, since ITC will update along with CA2019 and/or 9th Edition and (as I pointed out above) a considerable number of American metas use ITC as their official ruleset, it rather is on topic, no matter how dismissive people are of them.
I'm not dismissing the ITC; merely pointing out the the OP didn't ask about it.
Do not read more in to my words than what I said. People have been dismissive about how official the ITC rules are. If you haven't been dismissive, then I obviously wasn't referring to you.
Considering how intertwined they are in such a large market, it doesn't matter that the OP didn't mention it. The ITC will get involved whether there will be a 9th in the summer of 2020 or not.
Heck, 9th Age of Warhammer Fantasy Battles demonstrates that even if GW closes complete shop on 40K (like that would happen), someone will make a 9th Edition at some point.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/18 17:29:53
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 04:41:46
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ITC is as offical to ITC as my opinions are official to me. If all we are saying is something is as official as the people involved, well done, we all agree. However as I play 40k I really just care about whats official to that and anything else is by that standard un official house rules, like ITC, ETC, and how care to play.
You can get a billion people to start drinking Mayo tomorrow, that won't ever be my official way to use the product.
Sure, someone will make a fan based tournament rules, or rules for 40k if GW goes belly up but it won't last long and will be a shadow of its former glory, just like 9th age.
As well if GW ever decide to out right dismiss ITC, I bet it would impact it quite a lot as many would then consider it to be the " wrong " warhammer. Regardless how loved some people find it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 08:07:07
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Ginjitzu wrote:I'm not dismissing the ITC; merely pointing out the the OP didn't ask about it.
Well yes I wasn't commenting on any rules outside the ones GW supply really.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/18 08:07:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 08:11:06
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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Charistoph wrote:Actually, since ITC will update along with CA2019 and/or 9th Edition and (as I pointed out above) a considerable number of American metas use ITC as their official ruleset, it rather is on topic, no matter how dismissive people are of them.
In many European countries, ITC is basically non-existent. In any case the whole ITC discussion is just a "well, actually"-comment that derailed the discussion from anything worth reading.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 08:11:21
7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 11:18:51
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
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Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 11:32:01
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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I disagree. Our group almost exclusively plays Wh40k by the books and most of the big issues are prevalent there just as they are in ITC.
Usually it's quite the opposite - things that are obnoxious in ITC are just ok in regular games because there are no magic boxes or secondary objectives.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 14:11:42
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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SeanDrake wrote:Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
Because the ITC crowd care about balance, and GW doesn't give a gak.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 14:25:36
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Martel732 wrote:SeanDrake wrote:Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
Because the ITC crowd care about balance, and GW doesn't give a gak.
So how does GW get it right if people don't play the game as designed? If people don't play with GW missions and instead play test potentially with houserules then the feedback they receive is wrong.
If we assume the playtesters are testing using core GW rules and then still having to create ITC formats afterwards then the playtesting isn't good enough or has a bias.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 14:28:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 14:31:19
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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SeanDrake wrote:Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
This may be the first time I've ever been in 100% agreement with SeanDrake. I don't have any illusions that GW's rules are balanced, but how can they be expected to balance their game against a different ruleset than what they put out?
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 14:42:30
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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GW wasn't getting it right before ITC. They aren't interested in balance. I don't think they have playtesters, which is why they lean on the ITC crowd.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 14:47:20
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord
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Martel732 wrote:GW wasn't getting it right before ITC. They aren't interested in balance. I don't think they have playtesters, which is why they lean on the ITC crowd.
Well they factually confirmed the presence of in house playtesters in FAQ's, in articles, white dwarf and other publications. I really don't know what more you need?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 14:51:55
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Add to this the "massive 40k announcement" that GW has lined up at Adepticon and I think it's fair to say this isn't the usual doomsaying or random guessing.
People reading what they want to read.
2020’s AdeptiCon Warhammer Preview is going to be the BIGGEST and BEST Warhammer preview EVER.
Warhammer preview. Not 40K. Not AoS. Because they preview many facets of the hobby. Not just 40K.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/18 14:56:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 20:34:03
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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SeanDrake wrote:Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
same here.
I've said it many times before, GW needs a specific "balanced" tournament ruleset.
otherwise the game we play @ flgs is perfectly fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 20:54:38
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Its possible to get costs sufficiently accurate that book missions and itc both work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 20:59:45
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Jidmah wrote:I disagree. Our group almost exclusively plays Wh40k by the books and most of the big issues are prevalent there just as they are in ITC.
Usually it's quite the opposite - things that are obnoxious in ITC are just ok in regular games because there are no magic boxes or secondary objectives.
Exactly. ITC creates just as many problems as it fixes. In truth most of my games lately have just been CA missions without any special terrain rules. The main issue with this kind of game is the game being over in 3 turns and objectives not mattering much. Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel732 wrote:Its possible to get costs sufficiently accurate that book missions and itc both work.
Yes - actually balanced point costs fix both game modes.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/18 21:01:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 21:03:08
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Ask a dumb question, but what are the ITC rules beyond only using Eternal War missions and the ground floor of ruins blocking LOS?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 21:03:33
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Dudeface wrote:Martel732 wrote:GW wasn't getting it right before ITC. They aren't interested in balance. I don't think they have playtesters, which is why they lean on the ITC crowd.
Well they factually confirmed the presence of in house playtesters in FAQ's, in articles, white dwarf and other publications. I really don't know what more you need?
Things like ironhands and CF and infiltrating or turn 1 DS assault cents? Like...Play testers don't matter when I can look at the rules for 45 seconds and know more about the game than they did playing it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Castor wrote:Ask a dumb question, but what are the ITC rules beyond only using Eternal War missions and the ground floor of ruins blocking LOS?
3x secondary objectives chosen by the player at the start of the round. They basically get to pick objectives against your army composition that work best for them. On top of the standard objectives in ITC (hold more)(kill more) per turn. A big complaint is a lot of these objectives revolve around killing. For some strange reason "power level" is a factor in the secondary objectives. My big complaint is you can build your army to be hard to score against (which is dumb) composition should not effect my ability to score against you.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/18 21:07:20
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 22:06:52
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Actually i like being able to build against secondaries. More player agency.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 22:28:01
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Racerguy180 wrote:SeanDrake wrote:Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
same here.
I've said it many times before, GW needs a specific "balanced" tournament ruleset.
otherwise the game we play @ flgs is perfectly fine.
I've said repeatedly that 40K's real problem is a lack of a baked-in check-mate condition in the core rules because without one it's nigh impossible for the player who is losing to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and if the game isn't built around having a check-mate it's really hard to bolt one on after the fact.
Nobody seems to be listening to me on the matter though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 22:53:08
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I can see that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/18 23:00:21
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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The Newman wrote:Racerguy180 wrote:SeanDrake wrote:Almost all of 8th editions main issues stem from the ITC house rules being so prevalent, people seem to want GW to balance the game for there favoured house rule set rather than balancing for actual 40k.
What concerns me is how much sway the itc crowd have in the play testing.
same here.
I've said it many times before, GW needs a specific "balanced" tournament ruleset.
otherwise the game we play @ flgs is perfectly fine.
I've said repeatedly that 40K's real problem is a lack of a baked-in check-mate condition in the core rules because without one it's nigh impossible for the player who is losing to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and if the game isn't built around having a check-mate it's really hard to bolt one on after the fact.
Nobody seems to be listening to me on the matter though.
And if they do they usually say "What, like Warmachine? Thbbt. I signed up to play a long bloody slog where one player gets a decisive advantage a third of the way through the turn limit but the rules say you're supposed to keep going to the end, not Capture the Flag!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 08:43:35
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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The Newman wrote:I've said repeatedly that 40K's real problem is a lack of a baked-in check-mate condition in the core rules because without one it's nigh impossible for the player who is losing to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and if the game isn't built around having a check-mate it's really hard to bolt one on after the fact.
Nobody seems to be listening to me on the matter though.
I think this is true, in the few games of Warmachine I played I really liked how you could assassinate the warcaster to snatch victory despite getting stomped.
I don't think there is a good way to implement such a think in 40k though. Something like killing the warlord wouldn't work because some armies simply can't do that and some warlords are night impossible to kill.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 09:43:01
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
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Jidmah wrote:The Newman wrote:I've said repeatedly that 40K's real problem is a lack of a baked-in check-mate condition in the core rules because without one it's nigh impossible for the player who is losing to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and if the game isn't built around having a check-mate it's really hard to bolt one on after the fact.
Nobody seems to be listening to me on the matter though.
I think this is true, in the few games of Warmachine I played I really liked how you could assassinate the warcaster to snatch victory despite getting stomped.
I don't think there is a good way to implement such a think in 40k though. Something like killing the warlord wouldn't work because some armies simply can't do that and some warlords are night impossible to kill.
In chapter approved they added the open war cards system, which includes "sudden death cards" that give you instant-win conditions. The covert operations game mode they introduced for it is apparently pretty fun too, where both players draw 2 secret sudden death cards and whoever achieves both first wins.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 09:52:49
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Dunno what you guys talking about.
The balance is much better than it ever was.
If you cut iron hands, and push some of the worst army's out there
The best win ranking army has about 3-6% more than the 10th
That's so near to how perfekt it can be
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 09:58:49
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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cole1114 wrote:In chapter approved they added the open war cards system, which includes "sudden death cards" that give you instant-win conditions. The covert operations game mode they introduced for it is apparently pretty fun too, where both players draw 2 secret sudden death cards and whoever achieves both first wins.
Did you ever try those cards? I did, it works terribly. At some random point during the game, it grinds to a screeching halt and just ends, leaving both players shrugging. Not to mention that these cards aren't exactly fair to certain armies.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 10:34:24
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Regular Dakkanaut
Cymru
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Xenomancers wrote: Jidmah wrote:I disagree. Our group almost exclusively plays Wh40k by the books and most of the big issues are prevalent there just as they are in ITC.
Usually it's quite the opposite - things that are obnoxious in ITC are just ok in regular games because there are no magic boxes or secondary objectives.
Exactly. ITC creates just as many problems as it fixes. In truth most of my games lately have just been CA missions without any special terrain rules. The main issue with this kind of game is the game being over in 3 turns and objectives not mattering much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:Its possible to get costs sufficiently accurate that book missions and itc both work.
Yes - actually balanced point costs fix both game modes.
Balanced points costs for ITC will be different to balanced points costs in the book missions and especially in the latest CA19.
I played against the supposedly-so-broken-all-we-can-do-is-cry Iron Hands stuff in a tournament last week. Literally all the stuff the internet is raging about. CA19 missions, I played the mission and got tabled on turn 6 with such a big VP lead it did not matter. So is that IH stuff broken and massively undercosted for CA19 missions? On the evidence of the day, I would say there is a problem there - it is absolutely horrible for less experienced players to deal with - but no way broken. Given the experience of the day, I would suggest that with CA19 missions and enough experienced players around that stuff will be a flash in the pan - a brief fad for a horribly boring list that will go away because it is a classic mid-table bully that does not win on the top tables so does not win tournaments.
If I had the exact same match-up in ITC mission I would have been crushed without any possible route to victory - so in ITC that stuff is broken because it really only leaves a handful of viable army builds in the whole game that can deal with it. In ITC that stuff needs a nerf either to its rules or to its points values, in CA19 missions I think it is a bit too strong but not so much that any sort of nerf is urgently needed and failing to win tournaments will sort the problem out naturally.
I have no idea how you are getting to turn 3 tablings in CA19 missions in your games, everyone must just be going all-in on ridiculous glass cannon lists where you are. I had none of that and where my opponents did concede it was because by turn 4 or so I had an unassailable VP point lead in progressive scoring (and they fancied a drink), not because they were even that close to getting tabled.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 10:52:52
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
London UK
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I was stung pretty badly by GW at the end of 7th. The Traitors Hate supplement came out just a few months before it was invalidated by 8th edition. My memory is poor but I think it was released in March 2017 and 8th was June.
This sudden rush of books through psychic awakening feels like the same pattern from 7th with Gathering Storm campaign and Traitors Hate.
I won't be buying any of the psychic awakening books just in case it happens again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 11:03:58
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Posts with Authority
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I like the rumor that all original astartes are going to move to Legends/Legacy/Whatever.
Not that I think that'll happen just yet, but I do enjoy some of the outrage that comes whenever someone brings it up.
I've seen people defend their families with less vigor.
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Mob Rule is not a rule. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 12:11:09
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I am telling you all 100% 9th is coming soon, playtesting has been in the works for ages. You can quote me on this, 9th is within the next year or two.
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iGuy91 wrote:You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote:You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures... 
the_scotsman wrote:Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/12/19 12:25:25
Subject: The state of 8th and rumours of 9th
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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CREEEEEEEEED wrote:I am telling you all 100% 9th is coming soon, playtesting has been in the works for ages. You can quote me on this, 9th is within the next year or two.
And behold, after the rain ends and the clouds disperse, there shall be sunshine!
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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