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Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
Unpopular opinion: WYSIWYG is a tool for elitists to look down on people with less money, less time, less painting talent, less resources in general. It forces adherence to an arbitrary, unnecessary standard, so privileged individuals can whinge about immersion and realism. Play with bottle caps and sticks for all I care, as long as it's fun.

A page back or so there were like 3 different guys were piling on someone who just plays garage hammer and uses proxies.

It's obvious this has always been about snobbery rather than any good sportsmanship or cultivation of the hobby.

If you’re playing Proxyhammer in your basement with your friends by all means enjoy the game for what it is. Showing up at a game store or event with a half cobbled together army meant to proxy the Netlist of the Month doesn’t make others snobs or elitists for not liking that. I’m converting as much 30k stuff as I can from plastics to avoid FW prices but everything will be made clear and look like what it’s supposed to look like. If the time and pride I spend doing that counts as snobbery then I can live with that. If I can’t afford or convert a Sicaran to the proper dimensions I’m not just dropping a spare Landraider on a table in a game with strangers.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's not hard if you don't suck with money.

Typical elitist lack of respect for those of us who suck with money.

If you are looking to get better, let me tell you, a degree from Trump university will have you buying pallets of Minis in NO TIME. Just give me your credit card number and I'll sign you up today.

SWEET! How do you do DMs on this thing… oh to heck with it, I'll just post it here in the thread… just gimme a sec to get my wallet…



On a serious note, though: I disagree with the really really hardline stances on WYSIWYG… I think a little bit of proxying, within reason, like if it's just one or two models in your army, and with stuff like "you can't see her pistol because it's under her cloak", is fine, but… hoo boy… an ork player, of all things, saying rokkits on his killa kans are so super duper ultra important he absolutely cannot go without them, but ALSO aren't important enough to bother with converting, ordering bits, ordering third party bits, or buying an extra kit, is just absolutely BAFFLING to me. I just bought a whole extra box of wracks just so I could model the coven detachment's' venom to look like wracks are flying it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yes it IS a big deal because Grenade Launchers are super bad and you pay for them. It isn't a free upgrade. So basically you give the pass to GW for the inability to balance anything and say to your opponent "tough luck your squads aren't good but muh immersion", even though any immersion is gone the moment you actually play the game because IGOUGO is more unrealistic than a Plasma Gun looking like a Grenade Launcher.

That's dumb, sorry.

Sorry, taking such a WAAC tryhard attitude in an unbalanced beer and pretzels game is dumb.

Would it be nice if grenade launchers were not crap? Sure. But I really don't have a pressing need to optimise every unit, so I take some anyway as I like the variety and how they look. And if this causes me to lose some games (unlikely but theoretically possible) it is not a big deal as my self worth is not tied to winning a game of toy soldiers.

Now we have the CAAC attitude creeping in. "Sorry GW made it so you built your models wrong so they can't do anything, but you shouldn't care because toy soldiers".

Do you honesty hear yourself? This is the kind of crap people defend when all of this bad balancing happens. We're fething paying for rules, almost as much as we are for the damn models. If you want suggestions on how to do stuff, there's plenty of PDFs you can find online ready to rock. You're defending what is, for all intents and purposes, non-professionalism for game design. Because toy soldiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Slayer keeps finding new ways to make every thread about IGOUGO. That is one mighty obsession.

Sorry, you can't claim there is a problem with immersion when you blindly accept a system that is basically not immersive in the first place. It's just hypocrisy from the CAAC and white knights in the thread.

Some options are good. Some options are bad. Some options that were good become bad, some options that were bad become good.

Welcome to EVERY GAME that gets updated EVER MADE. If you're that mad about grenade launchers being bad, let me tell you about a little game called Hearthstone. Your head will explode!

No competitive player worth their salt expects anything less than to wholesale replace AT LEAST 75% of everything that's in their current list every year or so. Space marine players should expect to completely redo their army every 3 months.

And that's if you don't just straight up swap factions.

It's the same as with every competitive game ever. You want to play at the high levels? Than you gotta pay. You want better than you got right now, you gotta pay. If you get this mad about needing to update your gak, then don't update it. It's not like that's why you're losing games anyway.

Does it suck that there are imbalanced rules and useless options? Yes, obviously. I would LOVE for flamers to not be totally worthless accross the board. But there's useless crap in EVERY game. CCGs call it 'pack-filler'.

"Okay, this Primaris Captain is supposed to have a power sword- just to even out our points, but I didn't model him with one"

"I can't find one of the guys that's supposed to have a plasma cannon like the other guys in this Devastator Squad, so I'm just gonna drop in this dude with a multi-melta as a proxy for now"

"This Leman Russ doesn't have sponson guns, so just ignore those"

Stuff like that is fine. Things happen. But don't ask people to just accept that random things in your army are differently armed. It makes you a pain in the ass to play against, and you can say what you want about me- but it's easier for me to not play against that and find a game with someone else.

On a serious note, though: I disagree with the really really hardline stances on WYSIWYG… I think a little bit of proxying, within reason, like if it's just one or two models in your army, and with stuff like "you can't see her pistol because it's under her cloak", is fine, but… hoo boy… an ork player, of all things, saying rokkits on his killa kans are so super duper ultra important he absolutely cannot go without them, but ALSO aren't important enough to bother with converting, ordering bits, ordering third party bits, or buying an extra kit, is just absolutely BAFFLING to me. I just bought a whole extra box of wracks just so I could model the coven detachment's' venom to look like wracks are flying it.

Can we all take a time out for one second and have a laugh at the idea of relying on anything in the Ork army list doing anything meaningful in the shooting phase?

 Fajita Fan wrote:

On a serious note, though: I disagree with the really really hardline stances on WYSIWYG… I think a little bit of proxying, within reason, like if it's just one or two models in your army, and with stuff like "you can't see her pistol because it's under her cloak", is fine, but… hoo boy… an ork player, of all things, saying rokkits on his killa kans are so super duper ultra important he absolutely cannot go without them, but ALSO aren't important enough to bother with converting, ordering bits, ordering third party bits, or buying an extra kit, is just absolutely BAFFLING to me. I just bought a whole extra box of wracks just so I could model the coven detachment's' venom to look like wracks are flying it.

Can we all take a time out for one second and have a laugh at the idea of relying on anything in the Ork army list doing anything meaningful in the shooting phase?

Yes. Yes we may.

I'm generally for wysiwyg, but I've been known on occasion to run my kustom shoota big meks and big shoota kans as kustom megablasters. I just lazily explain to my opponent they are trying out some new 'plasma rounds'.

Oh, and before legends i ran my old buggies as biker mobs.

Shame on me!

 Fajita Fan wrote:

LOL @ “mutilate”
Now I’m really curious if we can get a pic of these Killa Kans? Those models were designed before GW shifted to not allowing war gear not included in the box. There’s an assumption and tradition that Ork players convert quite a bit of stuff. The original looted wagon rules said to just go buy another army’s tank.

The WYSIWYG standard has been around for a long time, even when conversions for models to be used in stores or events only had to be 50% GW bits. Calling converting missile launchers “mutilating” just means you don’t want your models to be represented accurately and that’s certainly an option for you.

I could take a pic but they are just killa kans assembled out of the box. The issue I have here with people like you is that you'd rather see a badly kitbashed model that's properly equipped than just accepting that a much better looking model with the proxied non-proper load out out is somehow more immersive. And going by your "orks are allowed to kitbash" were's my rokkits on Trukks and Battlewagons? Where's my Boss on bike? Oh right GW killed them because kit bashing is haram now for some reason. And I call it mutilating because I'm very bad at kitbashing, my reluctance to properly model them has nothing to do with laziness but rather my lacking modeling skills

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:

On a serious note, though: I disagree with the really really hardline stances on WYSIWYG… I think a little bit of proxying, within reason, like if it's just one or two models in your army, and with stuff like "you can't see her pistol because it's under her cloak", is fine, but… hoo boy… an ork player, of all things, saying rokkits on his killa kans are so super duper ultra important he absolutely cannot go without them, but ALSO aren't important enough to bother with converting, ordering bits, ordering third party bits, or buying an extra kit, is just absolutely BAFFLING to me. I just bought a whole extra box of wracks just so I could model the coven detachment's' venom to look like wracks are flying it.

Can we all take a time out for one second and have a laugh at the idea of relying on anything in the Ork army list doing anything meaningful in the shooting phase?

Yes. Yes we may.

nareik wrote:I'm generally for wysiwyg, but I've been known on occasion to run my kustom shoota big meks and big shoota kans as kustom megablasters. I just lazily explain to my opponent they are trying out some new 'plasma rounds'.

Oh, and before legends i ran my old buggies as biker mobs.

Shame on me!

The Ork shooting phase is like a scratch off lotto ticket at the gas station. You know you won’t win...but...maybe...

Heck we should probably be encouraging all Ork players to spend points on their shooty models so they’re spending points on proppa choppy bits.

Buy a dread. It has plenty of weapon options that fit kans, deffo a rokkit launcher or two. Loads of viable builds for dredds even without the launchers.

I'm always gonna support Lootas, though. Yes, you need at least a dozen or so to spam enough dakka to get anything done, but dang it, DEATHSKULLS IS DA BEST ORKZ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Castozor wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:

LOL @ “mutilate”
Now I’m really curious if we can get a pic of these Killa Kans? Those models were designed before GW shifted to not allowing war gear not included in the box. There’s an assumption and tradition that Ork players convert quite a bit of stuff. The original looted wagon rules said to just go buy another army’s tank.

The WYSIWYG standard has been around for a long time, even when conversions for models to be used in stores or events only had to be 50% GW bits. Calling converting missile launchers “mutilating” just means you don’t want your models to be represented accurately and that’s certainly an option for you.

I could take a pic but they are just killa kans assembled out of the box. The issue I have here with people like you is that you'd rather see a badly kitbashed model that's properly equipped than just accepting that a much better looking model with the proxied non-proper load out out is somehow more immersive. And going by your "orks are allowed to kitbash" were's my rokkits on Trukks and Battlewagons? Where's my Boss on bike? Oh right GW killed them because kit bashing is haram now for some reason. And I call it mutilating because I'm very bad at kitbashing, my reluctance to properly model them has nothing to do with laziness but rather my lacking modeling skills

There is no such thing as a badly kitbashed ork.

Are you sure you've chosen the right army for you? That you wouldn't be happier with, say, Ultramarines or Red Scorpions?

 Castozor wrote:

I could take a pic but they are just killa kans assembled out of the box. The issue I have here with people like you is that you'd rather see a badly kitbashed model that's properly equipped than just accepting that a much better looking model with the proxied non-proper load out out is somehow more immersive. And going by your "orks are allowed to kitbash" were's my rokkits on Trukks and Battlewagons? Where's my Boss on bike? Oh right GW killed them because kit bashing is haram now for some reason. And I call it mutilating because I'm very bad at kitbashing, my reluctance to properly model them has nothing to do with laziness but rather my lacking modeling skills

The Internet doesn’t convey tone or subtlety. I can promise you as one former Mek Boss to a future one whatever effort or materials you put into converting your Ork models for WYSIWYG would only be appreciated and you’ll find your skills will grow. No other Ork player will look down on you for some kustomizin’.

And if you’re ever in the DC area PM me and you can have my FW biker warboss. Not a joke.

 Fajita Fan wrote:

The Internet doesn’t convey tone or subtlety. I can promise you as one former Mek Boss to a future one whatever effort or materials you put into converting your Ork models for WYSIWYG would only be appreciated and you’ll find your skills will grow. No other Ork player will look down on you for some kustomizin’.

And if you’re ever in the DC area PM me and you can have my FW biker warboss. Not a joke.

You having said that I do apologize for my tone. But no i'm bad at converting and very cross the box doesn't have all the proper options. I do see your point though, but I'm agin not very comfortable with kitbashing and I'd rather not ruin my expensive models.

Edit @Natalie: yes I'm sure I picked the right army but I'm in this hobby for the game. As mentioned upthread I'd totally play with beer caps and lego models if I could get away with it. Orks for me are fluff wise just so great and have so many ways to build an army I fell in love with them, I want to improve my kitbashing eventually but my skills just aren't up to snuff just yet.

Teasing aside, I know kitbashing is scary given how much money the models cost, but

1) You are literally playing THE most kitbash/conversion-friendly faction in 40k. The only guys who come close are, like, Death Guard. Even your *mistakes* will be in character and look fun.

2) Remember the first time you painted a model? And how terrifying it was, given the risk of ruining all the lovely details of the sculpt and making this somewhat-cool gray thing look like colourful piece of crap? But you only ever got better and gained the skills by doing it, right? Kitbashing and converting is EXACTLY like that. You just gotta take the plunge and start learning. And it's SO rewarding when your army has little special unique details and quirks that are yours and yours alone.

Here's a thing that's happening in a different game system:

Corvus Belli doesn't actually produce all of the unit and weapon combinations that their game specifies. So they have an official policy that if a model-combination doesn't exist, you're allowed to proxy. In order to make that proxying feasible, there are various people who have taken to 3D-printing little signs to indicate things likes 'Heavy machine gun', or 'Profile X'.

Granted, it's an actual skirmish game, so normally only ten to twenty models on each side.

This post brought to you by original Chaos Demons codex and the questions "Which banner does that unit have, again?" and "Which unit has the Banner of ______?"

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Teasing aside, I know kitbashing is scary given how much money the models cost, but

1) You are literally playing THE most kitbash/conversion-friendly faction in 40k. The only guys who come close are, like, Death Guard. Even your *mistakes* will be in character and look fun.

2) Remember the first time you painted a model? And how terrifying it was, given the risk of ruining all the lovely details of the sculpt and making this somewhat-cool gray thing look like colourful piece of crap? But you only ever got better and gained the skills by doing it, right? Kitbashing and converting is EXACTLY like that. You just gotta take the plunge and start learning. And it's SO rewarding when your army has little special unique details and quirks that are yours and yours alone.

THIS THIS THIS

No Mek boss fired up his first konversion on the first try (or likely his 50th either) so get kuttin’, get lootin’, and get scrapin’!

Behold the last remaining models of a once mighty WAAAGGHH,14 shoota boyz, 2 kommandoz, and 3 nobz converted from fantasy Black Orcs because they were the biggest orc models available in 2006 or 2007. The shootaz all had suppresaz (tubes welded to their guns that don’t suppress any actual sound, tubes that looked like scopes, and goggles that don’t amplify any light at night whatsoever. But they were so impressed by Cadian Kasrkin and their fancy gear they just had to form an elite group of SEALZ for proppa infiltrating. I’d love to think that if they hadn’t strapped red flashlights to their faces they might have actually been better than BS2.

 Fajita Fan wrote:


Behold the last remaining models of a once mighty WAAAGGHH,14 shoota boyz, 2 kommandoz, and 3 nobz converted from fantasy Black Orcs because they were the biggest orc models available in 2006 or 2007. The shootaz all had suppresaz (tubes welded to their guns that don’t suppress any actual sound, tubes that looked like scopes, and goggles that don’t amplify any light at night whatsoever. But they were so impressed by Cadian Kasrkin and their fancy gear they just had to form an elite group of SEALZ for proppa infiltrating. I’d love to think that if they hadn’t strapped red flashlights to their faces they might have actually been better than BS2.

LOL I love it! Pure orky approach.And, given that they're orks, it probably worked, too!

For me WYSIWYG is almost entirely about being courteous to my opponent. I don't want them to have to remember a whole bunch of random stuff in the middle of a game and I don't want to potentially spoil their immersion if that's something that's important to them. There's leeway though, of course. Things like "all my Death Company have bolters instead of bolt pistols" is fine, as is "all melta guns are plasma guns". But if it's "this Leman Russ doesn't have sponsons, but this one does, but not the heavy bolters that are modelled, and these flamers are actually plasma guns, but these flamers are flamers..." etc then no, that's not OK.

You can complain about options being bad and changes between editions, and yes, that's annoying and I'm sure we all wish GW would do a better job of balancing all the options but the reality of any evolving game system is change will happen and if you're interested in chasing the meta you'll need to update things. That's just how the game is. The best way around it is to collect and play what you like rather than trying to constantly chase the new meta hotness. That way, when changes happen you'll likely already have the models you need already in your collection.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
Unpopular opinion: WYSIWYG is a tool for elitists to look down on people with less money, less time, less painting talent, less resources in general. It forces adherence to an arbitrary, unnecessary standard, so privileged individuals can whinge about immersion and realism. Play with bottle caps and sticks for all I care, as long as it's fun.

Even more unpopular opinion: Anyone who uses the word 'privileged' as a default explanation for someone who owns more Warhammer Toys, should never be invited to a table with employed adults.

Just because you're not willing to acknowledge the there's privlige in being able to work, doesn't mean it's not there.

I'm an adult, I manage my money to the fething penny on a weekly basis. I never assume I even have enough for a trip to the dollar store. I'm disabled and can't work. In the past, when I was in my early twenties, was living with family and had cash, I started my Necrons. In the last two years since I've started playing again, all I've managed to save was ~$26 to spend on proxy Sentry Pylons from TTCombat.

I'm doing the best I can to slowly build my collection and play the game. People who are able to work enough that spending $40 a month on 40k isn't a worry ARE privileged. We all have some form of privilege. Willfully dismissing it is the problem, ackowlwding that you're benefiting from some form of privlige isn't bad.

Acknowledge that some people are in a worse position than you, through no fault of thier own, and they deserve to play this game as much as you do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Said box was also made at a time when all Power Axes, Swords, Mauls, and Spears acted exactly the same: generic power weapons.

Sure, and it still didn't carry a fully loaded sprue for whatever loadout you wanted.

What about the player that wants all LC? Or 3 chainfists? Or all combi-flamers?

Should you, or anyone else, be forced to pay more for a product just so they can be satisfied? What makes people think their preferences take precedence over everyone else?

It doesn't matter if these loads outs are not optimal. The kits are not made exclusively for hyper cutting edge competitive players.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Said box was also made at a time when all Power Axes, Swords, Mauls, and Spears acted exactly the same: generic power weapons.

Sure, and it still didn't carry a fully loaded sprue for whatever loadout you wanted.

What about the player that wants all LC? Or 3 chainfists? Or all combi-flamers?

Should you, or anyone else, be forced to pay more for a product just so they can be satisfied? What makes people think their preferences take precedence over everyone else?

It doesn't matter if these loads outs are not optimal. The kits are not made exclusively for hyper cutting edge competitive players.

I would still complain about that (and I have in the past if you recall), but at least the melee weapons available are less offensive than the current ones.

It doesn't even matter if it's more competitive to take all LCs or not. The current organization of the sprues is disgusting. There's a whole fething section dedicated to trophy racks for crying out loud. I find it hard to believe the current way is anyone's preference, because said preference doesn't actually make a good kit whatsoever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I would still complain about that (and I have in the past if you recall), but at least the melee weapons available are less offensive than the current ones.

It doesn't even matter if it's more competitive to take all LCs or not. The current organization of the sprues is disgusting. There's a whole fething section dedicated to trophy racks for crying out loud. I find it hard to believe the current way is anyone's preference, because said preference doesn't actually make a good kit whatsoever.

Well, I mean trophy racks are kind of their thing...

It isn't anyone's preference, because it straddles the line on everything, essentially. Does the kit need 9 heads? Or a heavy flamer? Probably not, but I'd wager there's a subsection of people that would get pissed at removing head options.

To be honest I believe this is one of those internet discussions that only exist here because people can throw extreme examples at each other that in reality just don't happen outside anecdotical situations that one hobbyst will encounter maybe twice or trice in all of his or her life.

Nearly nobody plays with an army full of proxies unless hes a kid/very new player and nearly nobody will insult and be an ass about somebody for proxing one model before buying it or having two tactical squads with plasma guns instead of meltaguns in a 2k point ramy.

One thing that people need to realise, is that playing tactical marines as devastators with bolters is proxying, as devastators have different legs. The usual reply to this is to say that this obviously is fine, but why is it obviously fine to run tacticals as devastators, and not fine to run guardsmen as space marines, if one for example wants to represent a regiment of elite guard. This to me seems like a matter of taste, and forcing your taste on others is not nice.

Also, if keeping track of units like deathwatch is difficult, then an easy solution is to color code each squad and give each individual member a number on their shoulderpad so that they can be identified.

I've played many games with and many games without WYSIWYG and for me it comes down to being a memory aid. I don't like to proxy more than a couple of models because I forget myself what I have. It's worse when it's your opponent's army. It's worse when there are many proxies. When I played as a kid, both armies were entitle made up of proxies. I do not want to return to that.

Honestly, it could be a matched play or competitive play rule at this point to better differentiate between open and matched. But as others have already pointed out, GW doesn't mention WYSIWYG at all in the current rules. So I don't see how you can call it a way to force people to buy more models.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest I believe this is one of those internet discussions that only exist here because people can throw extreme examples at each other that in reality just don't happen outside anecdotical situations that one hobbyst will encounter maybe twice or trice in all of his or her life.

Nearly nobody plays with an army full of proxies unless hes a kid/very new player and nearly nobody will insult and be an ass about somebody for proxing one model before buying it or having two tactical squads with plasma guns instead of meltaguns in a 2k point ramy.

Quite true...

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
One thing that people need to realise, is that playing tactical marines as devastators with bolters is proxying, as devastators have different legs. The usual reply to this is to say that this obviously is fine, but why is it obviously fine to run tacticals as devastators, and not fine to run guardsmen as space marines, if one for example wants to represent a regiment of elite guard. This to me seems like a matter of taste, and forcing your taste on others is not nice.

Also, if keeping track of units like deathwatch is difficult, then an easy solution is to color code each squad and give each individual member a number on their shoulderpad so that they can be identified.

Speaking of absurd examples that do not happen in real life...

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
One thing that people need to realise, is that playing tactical marines as devastators with bolters is proxying, as devastators have different legs. The usual reply to this is to say that this obviously is fine, but why is it obviously fine to run tacticals as devastators, and not fine to run guardsmen as space marines, if one for example wants to represent a regiment of elite guard. This to me seems like a matter of taste, and forcing your taste on others is not nice.

Also, if keeping track of units like deathwatch is difficult, then an easy solution is to color code each squad and give each individual member a number on their shoulderpad so that they can be identified.

The reason it's obviously fine is because it's easy to keep track of what the unit is, what the unit can do, and it doesn't f*** up the sense of immersion!

C'mon! This isn't a philosophical debate! There's no "Ship of Theseus" data card! It's a silly fun game with which to play out cool sci-fi battles with your friends!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I would still complain about that (and I have in the past if you recall), but at least the melee weapons available are less offensive than the current ones.

It doesn't even matter if it's more competitive to take all LCs or not. The current organization of the sprues is disgusting. There's a whole fething section dedicated to trophy racks for crying out loud. I find it hard to believe the current way is anyone's preference, because said preference doesn't actually make a good kit whatsoever.

Well, I mean trophy racks are kind of their thing...

It isn't anyone's preference, because it straddles the line on everything, essentially. Does the kit need 9 heads? Or a heavy flamer? Probably not, but I'd wager there's a subsection of people that would get pissed at removing head options.

You don't need 9 heads to make the default loadout for the damn unit is the difference.

Printed army list and make sure to mark special loadouts. A bit of poster tack, a tooth pick and a, small flag identifying the unit works as you can list.

It does nothing to me as I have a good memory and can remember it all. But if you can magnetize or acquire the guys don't proxy for 6 months with no progress.

That said I get those of us who are frustrated by GWs insistence on making models that can legitimately make a loadout my personal example is the Tau commander who for some reason has one airbursting frag launcher and cyclic ion blaster. So I have to buy 3-4 to make one commander. It's annoying.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You don't need 9 heads to make the default loadout for the damn unit is the difference.

Whilst that kit's design is far from ideal, your dismissal of the purely aesthetic options is really missing what's actually the point of this hobby to many. Yearlier you even complained about trophy racks on Chaos Terminators! That is one of their signature features! Building aesthetically evocative models and being able to customise their appearance is pretty much the main draw of Warhammer and that should never be sacrificed for any other goal.