Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ccs wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

What is all the "negative waves" with WYSIWYG?

It's what you get from the cheaters, the cheap, & the lazy.

And on the other hand the stick-up-ass twits who think things have to be done 'correctly' or they aren't fun.

As with most things the truth lies somewhere in between the extreme strawmen we construct to insult people we disagree with.

 Talizvar wrote:
WYSIWYG I always look at as a gaming aid and makes the game look good.
Does the model look like what it represents?
Should it do otherwise?
Every time I get into this conversation I keep thinking of this:


Plus I find it easier on me as the model owner and a courtesy to my opponent to be able to know the model for what it is.
Gives a whole new meaning of modelling for advantage / obfuscation.

It COULD exist as a factor to get people to buy models, it "forced" me to get good modeling with magnets.
I would argue that WYSIWYG exists primarily as the main principle of tabletop war gaming that makes it the spectacle it is.

What is all the "negative waves" with WYSIWYG?

Because it's only enforced when you decide something is too powerful and say "tough luck to ya that GW made all of your Melta Guns useless".

I paint my power weapons and plasma in blue not because I actually like the look of it but to make it easy to see for my opponent so he doesnt charge in to a unit with a Thunderhammer wielding squad leader who 2 min later smashes his character out of no where.

Some things will take an artistic back seat just to make the game more practical. Me having a smooth game is more important than having more discrete weapons that I think might look a bit better.

My worst 8th edition game were against a necron army that was all made out of non GW parts and I just had to ask him all the time what each model were representing. My first completed 40k army was a Necron one so I got way more confused than if I had never seen a necron before. They werent too bad if seen on a shelf but they were in a very dark scheme on a dark industry table playing the last round of a RTT(so a bit tired already) so i couldnt distinguish anything. I dont want my opponents to feel the same as I did in that game. If i were to play a pick up game I would decline if against that army. Really nice player but I prefer something that if it isnt GW it is still very close to the design style for a good game.

Klickor wrote:I paint my power weapons and plasma in blue not because I actually like the look of it but to make it easy to see for my opponent so he doesnt charge in to a unit with a Thunderhammer wielding squad leader who 2 min later smashes his character out of no where.

Some things will take an artistic back seat just to make the game more practical. Me having a smooth game is more important than having more discrete weapons that I think might look a bit better.

Props to you.

Psionara wrote:It irks me a bit to have a regular character model only being given one option. For example, a Chaos Lord model gives you a thunderhammer and plasma pistol and that's it. No options for a bolt pistol, power sword. Squads/units on the other hand, have plently of options and should be able to change them out fairly simply. I get your point though.

Well if you've started an army in the years since the Chapterhouse lawsuit it's very hard to find any weapon options or special characters that are not physically in a box anymore. They took out a lot of opportunity for conversions and scratchbuilds to reduce the market for 3rd party conversions but all I see is a gazillion 3rd party conversion bits all over the place. Heck they took away the Black Orcs' 'Uge Array of Choppas rule where they counted as being armed with great weapons, hand weapon/shield, and dual hand weapons - now every Black Orc counts as being armed with what he's physically modeled with. I have models I've spent hours working on that are no longer usable. My converted Belial is now just a Deathwing Terminator with lightning claws who stands ornately above everyone else because they started selling an official resin sword/stormbolter model.

In fairness when the Chapterhouse bubble burst GW was getting a bit silly with things in the codex that weren't sold by them as a model. Tyranids were running around with hero units not represented; multiple weapons etc.... Conversions are not a skill every gamer should need to develop to play and often many aren't happy to convert until they've got more experience so it locks out newer players.

Plus you'd end up with many who wouldn't convert as they'd be waiting for the model from GW.

 Talizvar wrote:

What is all the "negative waves" with WYSIWYG?

People are just seeking more and more cynical means to accuse GW of doing the wrong thing.

Luckily second hand parts, conversions and magnets all exist.

So even if this was an intent directly stated in the preamble, they could hardly stop you using such methods.

I think it's fine as long as you inform your opponent ahead of time

Sure, and if you inform your opponent and they aren't interested in the game at that point - they're also not a dill weed. They just have different priorities than you. There's plenty of room at the table for everyone and how they enjoy the game.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I think it's fine as long as you inform your opponent ahead of time

Depending on what/how many of you're proxying maybe. Also people shouldn't roll their eyes when asked multiple times over the course of a few hours what things are - this is especially true when people are spamming MSU units in multiple detachments to maximize CP.

Let me say first I'm ok with wysiwyg, I think it mostly is there to handle ol cheaty face players who would otherwise play musical war gear/ weapons.

I think some intensely anal players do try to use it as a tool to bludgeon other players for not making their models far too busy just to live and die by it. I.E the ones who complained if you didn't model each marine with both frag, and krak but also the bolt pistol, CCW/chainsword and Boltgun. As well the ones who wanted every tiny wargear option to be seen even if they were relics and not there every battle.

I've been lucky enough to not have to deal with those types but, I know they are out there, lurking in the darkness.

It should be a tool to keep cheating from happening, make it easy to keep track of who does what and has what. Which is all good, just don't use it to be a grade A grief peddler.

If a model counts as being armed with an item as basic wargear it's never been required to be represented on the model as far as I know. I can't imagine someone who actually expects people to model grenades and pistols if a model has them as basic wargear. Yikes!

I decided to run a little experiment today and see how well I would remember proxy wargear. I didn't pay attention to which guard proxy was which, yet I only got the flamer and melta mixed up as which represented which. So since a game is a lot shorter than the time since I read the post, I'd say that remembering that army composition wasn't hard.

Also there is this notion that wysiwyg is needed for clarity, but this isn't true. One could easily paint the lips of each special weapon differently, and have a handy guide in the army list, so for example all red lips are plasmas.

Furthermore the magnets argument doesn't really cover the issue, as often they limit how one can pose the model, and wilder conversions often don't have any 1:1 weapons to match them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS, playing cheaters is unpleasant with or without wysiwyg. I would personally just not play with them.

the_scotsman wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
WYSIWYG doesn't work for every army. Take SW, for example. Grey Hunters have THREE weapons if they take Chainswords. How are you going to model that using the box alone?

By saying that the bolt pistol is in one of their tactical fanny packs.

Don’t they come with Pistol holsters? Now I’m going to spend time wondering where I picked mine up.
Mk3 Heresy Armour makes brilliant Grey Hunters, both hands on the Boltgun with the Bolt Pistol and Chainsword holstered in easy reach.

Are you for real ? Like really real ? Have you played a game trying to check out the lips color of hundreds of guards ? I don't care what kind of chart you make up, that game would be a pain in the butt. Not only because that is confusing but also because lips are small, on small faces scattered all over the board do you play floating eye level with each unit on the board ? I don't nor do I savor the idea of looking at each tiny pair of painted lips.

WYSIWYG is indeed a good tool for clarity, if you have issues with it fine but you could always just settle on a unit load out and use it good or bad without the need for painful WYSIWYG work arounds.

I would say, or request if someone wants to twink me with the most OP combo they can imagine, they better put the money in the models and the time in the making them. If its just a one off or two off game to proxy to see what they may want to use or pick up in the future that's all good but every game is a yikes, I'd rather not no matter how lovely their lips are looking today.

And, there are some who did expect all basic war gear to be seen and yes they were unpleasant to say the least.

 Fajita Fan wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I think it's fine as long as you inform your opponent ahead of time

Depending on what/how many of you're proxying maybe. Also people shouldn't roll their eyes when asked multiple times over the course of a few hours what things are - this is especially true when people are spamming MSU units in multiple detachments to maximize CP.

Ive been stuck proxying 3 of the invictor warsuits because they have been sold out for quite a while now on the GW US site, when they are back in stock I plan to purchase them right away, but that may be a while. My normal gaming group has been pretty understanding about it.

Proxying because you can't get the model is a different kettle of fish.

I've generally taken one of two approaches to the issue:

1) Play completely wysiwyg. If I don't own it, I don't play it.
2) Proxy with absolute consistency. If I want a Tac squad carrying Chainsword/Stormbolter on the Sergeant and a Lascannon and I don't have that unit then every Tac squad in the army is armed that way. If my opponent has to remember something, at least it's only one thing.

WYSIWYG is vital to knowing how to commit your forces. The whole Mutable Genus concept threw that out the window to the point that nowadays you literally cannot tell what you're facing past faction. Subfaction? GONE. Wargear? Good luck. You should be able to look across the board, see a unit, and have no misgivings about its capabilities. The second you can't, the system fails. WYSIWYG is what keeps the system from failing.

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

What is all the "negative waves" with WYSIWYG?

It's what you get from the cheaters, the cheap, & the lazy.

that's hardly fair, if I don't magnatyize my minis and an edition changes and now the melta guns I sued are now simply a bad choice and I declare them all plasma guns, is that really a big deal?

Yes, it is.
When playing against me, please use what you've brought, not what you wish you had. If you're not capable of that then I'm fine not playing with you.

It seems to me like there's no real one-size-fits-all answer to this stuff?

It varies a lot by context.

If it's a casual game with a friend, and the point is having fun rather than competition, that's not as big a deal as doing it at an actual tournament.

If it's just a question of weapons loadout on a character model that's in the rules, but not the kit, and you didn't have the parts or skills for kitbashing it, that's less of a big deal than saying that an otherwise indistinguishable tactical marine is actually a sergeant with a chain axe and a plasma pistol and the indistinguishable tactical marine next to him is actually a gunner with a Lascanon.

If it's just a matter of specifying what your third-party or converted miniature actually is, that's not as big a deal as saying a hardback copy of The Collected Works of Oscar Wilde is actually a Baneblade.

If it's just one or two little things you want to make clear before the game, like saying your captain's plasma pistol is an inferno pistol and that all your reivers are actually wearing grav chutes but you dropped some of the little fins behind the couch, that's not as big a deal as half your dang army being proxies for something else.

It all depends, you know?

Going non-WYSIWYG is modelling for advantage.

Catulle wrote:
Going non-WYSIWYG is modelling for advantage.

Wouldn't it be not-modelling for advantage?

nataliereed1984 wrote:

Catulle wrote:
Going non-WYSIWYG is modelling for advantage.

Wouldn't it be not-modelling for advantage?

Touche!

saw on facebook figured post needed here to..

first off I will not origionally when playing I would heavily magnitize everything. a few neodynium magnets meant I could have nobz with a big choppa or power claw with just a arm swap. ditto heavy wepons for rokkits of big shootas. even my lootas and burnas for the first few sets were magnetized to full swap. you don't need to buy models to add all the bit in the box if you model well... that said...

WYSIWYG exists to somebody is not shooting a multimelta one turn, then a plasma cannon the next. It also exists to not confuse other players in tournaments. casual pickup and narrative games proxy away. tournaments.. your models best be correct, clearly labeled/market, or uniform. an example "every heavy weapon squad is a mortar for guard" ok cool no issue if it doesn't match models as no heavy weapon squad should be shooting anything but a mortar. "ok these 3 las cannons are las cannons but those 2 las cannons are mortars and those 2 las cannons are autocannons" nope... not ok.

I dont refuse games against Proxys or counts as, or whatever, but secretly I think it looks like gak.

Cant afford new models? Ok, I can understand it.

Trying to be a WAAC net list copy cat following the flavor of the month? Prolly never playing you again.

ccs wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

What is all the "negative waves" with WYSIWYG?

It's what you get from the cheaters, the cheap, & the lazy.

And on the other hand the stick-up-ass twits who think things have to be done 'correctly' or they aren't fun.

As with most things the truth lies somewhere in between the extreme strawmen we construct to insult people we disagree with.

Ooh. Sounds like I struck a nerve here. Anyone want to take bets on wich category AnomanderRake is in?

I try to live somewhere between the extremes of most arguments; your hyperbolic description of anti-WYSIWYG people was so eloquent I didn't feel I needed to add to it.

Aash wrote:
WYSIWYG is about more than the game, its about the whole hobby. Building the models, painting them and playing the game are all aspects of the hobby, and WYSIWYG is an encouragement and a reason to pay attention to the modelling aspect of the hobby, in addition to the reasons given above: clarity, fairness, respect for the game and your opponent etc etc.

This.

ccs wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

What is all the "negative waves" with WYSIWYG?

It's what you get from the cheaters, the cheap, & the lazy.

Or conversely people who insist on everything always being wysiwyg have lots of both money and free time and can't understand how anyone else doesn't.

I try and be as WYSIWYG as possible but also enioy conversions and proxy armies (going so far as to add 3D printed nameplates)

Having said that 40k has bloated to such a large scale conflict that skirmish level minutia is rather silly. I'd prefer the Apocalypse approach at this point.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or conversely people who insist on everything always being wysiwyg have lots of both money and free time and can't understand how anyone else doesn't.

I SAVE money by forcing myself to use WYSIWYG.
A pack of magnets might cost £2, and save me from buying another £20 box of models just to get the extra weapons.
The time, yes. It takes more time to magnetise. But, while filing down the lumps of sprue and mold lines, it is a bit more to drill and glue in a magnet. Again, it is a lot less time spent than doing another box of models.

I don't insist my opponent does, but I insist I do.