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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Being in a state with only one licensed GW store, and the next one being over 100 miles away, I generally try not to anger the bear. That being said I've seen guys be asked to put away their models, and if they give the slightest defense, asked to leave the store.

Then that store should be reported to corporate.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Being in a state with only one licensed GW store, and the next one being over 100 miles away, I generally try not to anger the bear. That being said I've seen guys be asked to put away their models, and if they give the slightest defense, asked to leave the store.

Then that store should be reported to corporate.

Why? For enforcing a store policy that is pretty widely accepted around most GW stores? You aren't allowed to use any non-GW/FW models in a GW store. This isn't narrative, or "But muh furbies are daemon princes and I needs muh coke can rhino!" but being respectful to a store owner's attempt to run a business.

Yep, that's been a GW rule for...as long as I've visited GW stores and is entirely appropriate. The GW policy is simple:

A) We give you a place to play.
B) You are essentially advertising for us by using our models/games when people walk into the store.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Being in a state with only one licensed GW store, and the next one being over 100 miles away, I generally try not to anger the bear. That being said I've seen guys be asked to put away their models, and if they give the slightest defense, asked to leave the store.

Then that store should be reported to corporate.

Why? For enforcing a store policy that is pretty widely accepted around most GW stores? You aren't allowed to use any non-GW/FW models in a GW store. This isn't narrative, or "But muh furbies are daemon princes and I needs muh coke can rhino!" but being respectful to a store owner's attempt to run a business.

My impression was that it was regarding innocuous things like bits.

If people are rocking soda can rhinos then they shouldn't play there. A GW store front is the window for new customers into the hobby, so rocking weird, gakky models is bad for business. If its a model that is difficult to distinguish from GW then there isn't a good reason for the store to chuck people out, in my opinion.

Well, it's a rather clear distinction in every GW store I've been in, on both sides of the pond. GW doesn't allow anything non-GW on their tables.

Bits, bases, models, or sometimes even terrain. I tried to use my FLG ITC terrain set in a recent game, and the store owner said I couldn't, but he would let us use his terrain bits. Fine. Respectful and professional. He's here to sell his stuff, not someone else's.

Totally fair. The point is, what are you kitbashing that you can't make with 1st party materials? There is nothing that can't be made with greenstuff, as others have pointed out.

I hate to say this, but at the end of the day, if you want to play Super Mario, you can't bring me a chinese knock off called "Super Action Plumber Time" and say it's Super Mario.

If you want to play GW's game, in a GW store, you have to buy their toys. If you want to play with your friends at literally anywhere else, use whatever. Why has this gone on for 13 pages? What is the issue?

*Looks at title* OH. Yeah. WYSIWYG is GW Store only, unless it's GW bits, and then who cares, just don't be a jerk about it.

Why has this gone on for 13 pages? What is the issue?

Because I have my laptop with me at work and can post on it. I'm also holiday shopping so I get to wait in long lines with nothing to do, that's why you see weird errors in my posts as my phone does its best to autocorrect things. The word unit "filler" became "filled" in line at Safeway and I was too lazy to edit it.

Even if a third party model looks a great deal like a GW product - and they actually have to be pretty careful about doing that, since there's only so much visual overlap you can do before you expose yourself to a Chapter House style lawsuit - there's still the risk of a customer saying, "Wow! That's really cool! What model is it?", then finding out GW doesn't sell it, and… there you go, bad for business.

My GW knows I buy a lot of crap so I think that's one reason why no one bothers me.

 Fajita Fan wrote:

Why has this gone on for 13 pages? What is the issue?

Because I have my laptop with me at work and can post on it. I'm also holiday shopping so I get to wait in long lines with nothing to do, that's why you see weird errors in my posts as my phone does its best to autocorrect things. The word unit "filler" became "filled" in line at Safeway and I was too lazy to edit it.

Yeah, I think a lot of us are just on Holiday vacations and such and really bored. Maybe some people have even flown to visit family and are away from their gaming groups and models and jonesing for 40k talk? I don't know.

Besides, this thread gave me a chance to ask a couple questions clarifying what to expect if I go play games at the GW store in Burnaby rather than the LGS here in Van proper.

I could say if the model is not WYSIWYG then it is a "Proxy" or substitute for the "actual" representative model.

Even in the bad old days of cardboard "chits" representing units in board games you wanted a picture to at least be representative.

I guess you have to ask yourself the question: "why do you buy models in the first place"?
I have seen those who are happy to glue legs to a base and figure that is good enough if they can get someone to play.
I am OK financially but will use targeted magnets so I do not have to buy 3-4 of the same model unit so I can get all the options attached.
I take so long to paint that I am pretty darn committed to each model that shelving them due to not being optimal, is not always an easy choice.

"Forced" to buy extra models? I guess it depends on what you can kit-bash, buy used, or find a descent substitute (except for GW shop play) and be content with those alternative sources or methods.
It is always the fine choice of time or money for these kinds of things.

I take some offense and question the OP on being a gamer: There are NO "extra models", they are precisely the quantity you "need".

ccs wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
If you support wysiwyg don't play anyone that plays min squad wych cult units.

Combat drugs are invisible, and have to be different for each unit. If you can manage that you can manage other armies

Of course I could. It's just not my job to manage your army. It's on YOU to show me which of your models has what upgrades. Refusal to do so means that you're one of the lazy/cheap/cheats.

On wyches & their drugs;
Our lone DE/Wych player simply has a color coded set of tokens (made from Poker Chips) printed with the names of the various drugs for each of his squads.
Each squad of wyches has a different color of rim on the base (red squad, blue squad, green squad, etc) & all of the tokens for that squad are of that color. Tokens not being used remain in the case.
There is no way that you're going to mistake what squad has what drugs. It's as WYSIWYG for this type of thing as you can get.

He learned it from a Tyranid player back in 4th who tracked his more or less invisible bio-morphs in a similar way.

And yet the lazy/cheap/cheats are trying to convince us all that it's impractical to model their pieces with the correct weapons - wich do exist in physical form....
They could also do exactly as our DE player & make tokens for each squads special/heavy weapons/wargear weapons. But they don't. Hmm, I wonder why?

I don't play DE so thanks for calling me a cheater/lazy/cheap. I play my Ultramarines, they have their transfers, they are Ultramarines full stop. They're wysiwyg, I prefer it but it's not necessary for the game it's simply gate keeping

You're right though I could call my friend out for being lazy for not taking the time to mark his units but that's not my responsibility like you said. I just want to play the game against him regardless of the quality.

So how would Spears of the emperor work then? Primaris don't have access to power lances/spears but that's their entire gimmick. In order to be wysiwyg I wouldn't be able to play them according to this thread

From what I can tell the USA division of GW has a very different style to that of the UK; with the USA being a bit less friendly. I put it down to the UK staff often being recruited from gamers who just hung around the store long enough to get employed; whilst in the USA I'd guess that they've gone a more corporate hiring approach.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Hey, serious question for a second, if it's okay:

I'm building / painting up a Drukhari army right now, and I've got a Wych detachment. Currently it's just a patrol detachment for use with the "Raiding Party" and "Alliance of Agony" rules, and it doesn't have any duplicated unit types, but it would still probably be helpful for my opponent to have some reminder that the wyches are using grave lotus, the reavers have hypex, the hellions have painbringer, the beastmaster has splintermind, etc etc. *

Should I make little counters to put next to the unit? Or is it enough to just say which units are using which drugs at the beginning of the game, while I'm also explaining stuff like my Obsessions and pre-game stratagems, have it written down on my data sheets, and maybe just periodically remind my opponent who is high on what kind of goofballs?

I would make the tokens.

ccs wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Hey, serious question for a second, if it's okay:

I'm building / painting up a Drukhari army right now, and I've got a Wych detachment. Currently it's just a patrol detachment for use with the "Raiding Party" and "Alliance of Agony" rules, and it doesn't have any duplicated unit types, but it would still probably be helpful for my opponent to have some reminder that the wyches are using grave lotus, the reavers have hypex, the hellions have painbringer, the beastmaster has splintermind, etc etc. *

Should I make little counters to put next to the unit? Or is it enough to just say which units are using which drugs at the beginning of the game, while I'm also explaining stuff like my Obsessions and pre-game stratagems, have it written down on my data sheets, and maybe just periodically remind my opponent who is high on what kind of goofballs?

I would make the tokens.

If there''s a serious upside to my dalliance with Warmahordes, it's that I have no shortage of dry-wipe tokens to use in other games and just rolled good practice from that game into... everything else.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
I must be missing something, there are stores that don’t let you use models you didn’t buy there? I’ve played in stores I just bring stuff to.

There are not. This is one of those constructed fantasy hate boners that don't really exist in reality.

Not really constructed. Basically the attitude was:

Elbows wrote:A) We give you a place to play.
B) You are essentially advertising for us by using our models/games when people walk into the store.

The store didn't start out that way, but soon after they started doing that, well... Let's just say that their store space was eventually devoted to other interests.

That's why it's usually not considered a good idea to try and enforce it.

 fraser1191 wrote:
.

So how would Spears of the emperor work then? Primaris don't have access to power lances/spears but that's their entire gimmick. In order to be wysiwyg I wouldn't be able to play them according to this thread

Yeah I just modeled a Primaris Captain with a Trident. Would people really say I can't use him other than as a decoration?

Arcanis161 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
.

So how would Spears of the emperor work then? Primaris don't have access to power lances/spears but that's their entire gimmick. In order to be wysiwyg I wouldn't be able to play them according to this thread

Yeah I just modeled a Primaris Captain with a Trident. Would people really say I can't use him other than as a decoration?

In real life? No. In this thread? People will adopt any contrary adversarial position for internet points...

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
.

So how would Spears of the emperor work then? Primaris don't have access to power lances/spears but that's their entire gimmick. In order to be wysiwyg I wouldn't be able to play them according to this thread

Yeah I just modeled a Primaris Captain with a Trident. Would people really say I can't use him other than as a decoration?

In real life? No. In this thread? People will adopt any contrary adversarial position for internet points...

Aww, I wish internet points were for stuff like "do an ollie on a skateboard" or "name all the Soviet cosmonauts that have been to space". :-P

Arcanis161 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
.

So how would Spears of the emperor work then? Primaris don't have access to power lances/spears but that's their entire gimmick. In order to be wysiwyg I wouldn't be able to play them according to this thread

Yeah I just modeled a Primaris Captain with a Trident. Would people really say I can't use him other than as a decoration?

Well, let's see;
Lazy? - Nope, you've modeled the weapon. At the minimum you've modeled him holding a close combat weapon....
Cheap? - Nope, you've modeled the weapon
Cheating? - Nope, you're not hiding (intentionally or otherwise) which model has the weapon. I look across the board & I'll SEE a guy holding a trident.

The cheating is the big one. Over nearly 30 years of minis gaming I've seen an awful lot of "invisible" weapons magically shift back & forth within squads. (not just in 40k) Sometimes to take advantage of LoS, sometimes range, during casualty removal, depending upon stationary/moving restrictions.... Heck I've even seen them jump squads & swap ends of the battlefield when it was convenient. I'm sure there's no strat for that.
And that's why we do WYSIWYG for weapons. So everyone knows at a glance where things are & there's no disagreements.

To all the people here saying it's either a conspiracy or incompetence please consider it's most likely neither. GW as a company just doesn't care enough about the competitive community to include the kits they need, and honestly do you expect them to do something that would negatively impact sales?

As others have said you have options when it comes to bits, you can craft your own (Blue Stuff molds) or buy them individually online, so there is really no point in complaining about this.
We'll see full kits when we see full testing (the two things go hand in hand), and judging from the 20+ thread on the subject i'd say that's never going to happen.

 Archon Sinter wrote:
To all the people here saying it's either a conspiracy or incompetence please consider it's most likely neither. GW as a company just doesn't care enough about the competitive community to include the kits they need, and honestly do you expect them to do something that would negatively impact sales?

Perhaps GW understand that (as the thread topic and title) if people have to buy multiple kits because they only have one competitive option in the box for said unit, they sell more product? Perhaps GW also realise that when they make another option for said unit stronger/most optimal they then force players to purchase more of the same product, if they want to use the unit at it' best?

Just a thought. I'm quite certain they "care" about the competitive community in so far as they care about making money from it.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Archon Sinter wrote:
To all the people here saying it's either a conspiracy or incompetence please consider it's most likely neither. GW as a company just doesn't care enough about the competitive community to include the kits they need, and honestly do you expect them to do something that would negatively impact sales?

Perhaps GW understand that (as the thread topic and title) if people have to buy multiple kits because they only have one competitive option in the box for said unit, they sell more product? Perhaps GW also realise that when they make another option for said unit stronger/most optimal they then force players to purchase more of the same product, if they want to use the unit at it' best?

Just a thought. I'm quite certain they "care" about the competitive community in so far as they care about making money from it.

Nail meet head, if you think any for-profit company wouldn't you're deluding yourself.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Even if a third party model looks a great deal like a GW product - and they actually have to be pretty careful about doing that, since there's only so much visual overlap you can do before you expose yourself to a Chapter House style lawsuit - there's still the risk of a customer saying, "Wow! That's really cool! What model is it?", then finding out GW doesn't sell it, and… there you go, bad for business.

So like...Half my stuff at this point, but they're all GW official models, sooooo...

"Cool eldar army, what models are those?"

"Well these are howling banshees from mostly rogue trader and 2nd ed, these rocket hat dudes are the first idea someone had for dark reapers. These shining spears you can still buy but now they're made of fossilized shaving cream instead of metal that will melt over the course of a couple years. The farseer's rogue trader, the guardians are a kit that's always been just arms and heads, so technically you have to kitbash them together to make the unit but don't tell GW."

 Fajita Fan wrote:
I must be missing something, there are stores that don’t let you use models you didn’t buy there? I’ve played in stores I just bring stuff to.

There are FLGSs that won't let you play game systems they don't sell there (one of my locals wouldn't let people play the GoT Kickstarter in-store until it was released to retail, for example), and people exaggerate...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, it's a rather clear distinction in every GW store I've been in, on both sides of the pond. GW doesn't allow anything non-GW on their tables.

Bits, bases, models, or sometimes even terrain. I tried to use my FLG ITC terrain set in a recent game, and the store owner said I couldn't, but he would let us use his terrain bits. Fine. Respectful and professional. He's here to sell his stuff, not someone else's.

Totally fair. The point is, what are you kitbashing that you can't make with 1st party materials? There is nothing that can't be made with greenstuff, as others have pointed out.

I hate to say this, but at the end of the day, if you want to play Super Mario, you can't bring me a chinese knock off called "Super Action Plumber Time" and say it's Super Mario.

If you want to play GW's game, in a GW store, you have to buy their toys. If you want to play with your friends at literally anywhere else, use whatever. Why has this gone on for 13 pages? What is the issue?

*Looks at title* OH. Yeah. WYSIWYG is GW Store only, unless it's GW bits, and then who cares, just don't be a jerk about it.

It's 100% at the discretion of the store manager in my experience. Since that's the only store in 100 miles, he can pull that kind of stuff and everyone has to suck it up. But in a more competitive area, no one would play at that store.

In my area with 4-5 other FLGS, the GW store is very loose with their rules. You can come in any time to paint, play, bs, socialize, etc without buying anything.

No one asks questions about your kitbashed models as long as they're not straight 3rd party models or recasts. People can make custom terrain and assemble models in the store. No one's gonna be put on the cross for using 3rd party bases (especially flight stands!). The hobby is actually *encouraged* and the manager has done a great job creating a local hangout.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, it's a rather clear distinction in every GW store I've been in, on both sides of the pond. GW doesn't allow anything non-GW on their tables.

Bits, bases, models, or sometimes even terrain. I tried to use my FLG ITC terrain set in a recent game, and the store owner said I couldn't, but he would let us use his terrain bits. Fine. Respectful and professional. He's here to sell his stuff, not someone else's.

Totally fair. The point is, what are you kitbashing that you can't make with 1st party materials? There is nothing that can't be made with greenstuff, as others have pointed out.

I hate to say this, but at the end of the day, if you want to play Super Mario, you can't bring me a chinese knock off called "Super Action Plumber Time" and say it's Super Mario.

If you want to play GW's game, in a GW store, you have to buy their toys. If you want to play with your friends at literally anywhere else, use whatever. Why has this gone on for 13 pages? What is the issue?

*Looks at title* OH. Yeah. WYSIWYG is GW Store only, unless it's GW bits, and then who cares, just don't be a jerk about it.

It's 100% at the discretion of the store manager in my experience. Since that's the only store in 100 miles, he can pull that kind of stuff and everyone has to suck it up. But in a more competitive area, no one would play at that store.

In my area with 4-5 other FLGS, the GW store is very loose with their rules. You can come in any time to paint, play, bs, socialize, etc without buying anything.

No one asks questions about your kitbashed models as long as they're not straight 3rd party models or recasts. People can make custom terrain and assemble models in the store. No one's gonna be put on the cross for using 3rd party bases (especially flight stands!). The hobby is actually *encouraged* and the manager has done a great job creating a local hangout.

Our local GW is pretty loose on painting and the like but not sure about 3rd party bits I would like to get a 3D printed bit to replace the cage on the invictor warsuits to look more like dreadnoughts to fit in with my army theme better but it would suck to not be able to use them at the store. I have some time as the warsuits are out of stock online and the GW got hit by a tornado in September so it will be a little while before the building is safe to open back up.

My local GW seems pretty solid it seems then.
Painting requirements are just 3 colours.

Model requirements are “majority GW parts” only.
See tons of head swaps etc and no one blinks an eye at it.
Also seen models used for unreleased kits as a stand in and they don’t mine either (that was a while ago though)

Jackal90 wrote:
My local GW seems pretty solid it seems then.
Painting requirements are just 3 colours.

Model requirements are “majority GW parts” only.
See tons of head swaps etc and no one blinks an eye at it.
Also seen models used for unreleased kits as a stand in and they don’t mine either (that was a while ago though)

Your GW has painting requirements?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
My local GW seems pretty solid it seems then.
Painting requirements are just 3 colours.

Model requirements are “majority GW parts” only.
See tons of head swaps etc and no one blinks an eye at it.
Also seen models used for unreleased kits as a stand in and they don’t mine either (that was a while ago though)

Your GW has painting requirements?

Even clubs can have painting requirements. It's basically there to encourage people to actually paint their models rather than just having armies of grey on the table all the time. Typically a store won't punish newbies or those new to the area (who might be newly returned or joined to the hobby); but they will encourage and enforce it. The idea is to get people putting paint on the models so that the game looks better for both players and also advertises a more interesting game to passers by. For a shop this is important; for clubs it also helps recruit and retain new players to their local scene.


Painted models, even badly painted, typically look way better than just legions of grey (or undercoat white/black) models.

 Overread wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
My local GW seems pretty solid it seems then.
Painting requirements are just 3 colours.

Model requirements are “majority GW parts” only.
See tons of head swaps etc and no one blinks an eye at it.
Also seen models used for unreleased kits as a stand in and they don’t mine either (that was a while ago though)

Your GW has painting requirements?

Even clubs can have painting requirements. It's basically there to encourage people to actually paint their models rather than just having armies of grey on the table all the time. Typically a store won't punish newbies or those new to the area (who might be newly returned or joined to the hobby); but they will encourage and enforce it. The idea is to get people putting paint on the models so that the game looks better for both players and also advertises a more interesting game to passers by. For a shop this is important; for clubs it also helps recruit and retain new players to their local scene.


Painted models, even badly painted, typically look way better than just legions of grey (or undercoat white/black) models.

Yeah, if my GW had a painting REQUIREMENT, I'd not be nearly as invested into the hobby as I am now.

The manager encourages painting and helps anyone who needs it, but it's not mandatory.