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I am not sure if it is elitist gate keeping. It could be that thing I don't know the name for in english, you know the state when someone who spend a lot of money on something finds out you can do the same thing for a lot less, and now he has to explain to himself and the rest of the world that his spending was not wrong, and it the person who did the stuff for cheap that is in the wrong.
So many words in english for something we just have one word for. I am actually suprised.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Argive wrote: Not everyone has time/will/resources etc. etc. to paint.
Everyone sane understands that everyone has their own shtick.. And at the end of the day nobody really gives a damn..
But...
Lets imagine we have an infinity gauntlet and we snap our fingers and puff! Every grey plastic horde out there turns into solid table top standard army painted to users imagining…
Lets not kid ourselves, who would not want that to happen ?
I would NOT do that.
Some people LIKE to paint, and this would deprive them of that. That’s not fair to them.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Argive wrote: Not everyone has time/will/resources etc. etc. to paint. Everyone sane understands that everyone has their own shtick.. And at the end of the day nobody really gives a damn..
But...
Lets imagine we have an infinity gauntlet and we snap our fingers and puff! Every grey plastic horde out there turns into solid table top standard army painted to users imagining…
Lets not kid ourselves, who would not want that to happen ?
I would NOT do that.
Some people LIKE to paint, and this would deprive them of that. That’s not fair to them.
ok..... Because the point I was making was not obvious(somehow) lets caveat that anyone that is a walking breathing contradiction that has grey hordes yet apparently really enjoys painting in this hypothetical world would not have their army magically painted...
Better ?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/13 23:12:55
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Poor hygiene is frowned upon. Not painting your models isn't. At least not with sane people.
I guess most of the poll respondents are insane then!
Nice! You completely missed the point again! As usual.
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nurgle5 wrote: After reading through this thread, my conclusion is that it is an equally unwelcome to insist that a person paints their miniatures or plays against unpainted miniatures if they don't want to -- either way someone's enjoyment is being compromised. Having said that it's been thoroughly depressing to see what is ostensibly a major aspect of 40k as a hobby, though not necessarily 40k as a game, being broadly dismissed as advertising.
As an aside, in response to a post made earlier: the miniature packages may not contain any kind of useful painting guide, but there are plenty of painting guides and related hobby material on GW's youtube and community website.
Yeah, the idea is that if you don't want to play against unpainted models, don't. No one should force you. But by the same token, calling people lazy, WAAC, or any other perjorative because they don't have time/money/inclination to paint is even worse.
Just as no one should force their preference on you, you shouldn't force your preference on others.
To add to the poll debate, I voted 3/5. I've also clearly said several times that I only apply that to myself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/13 23:43:42
Poor hygiene is frowned upon. Not painting your models isn't. At least not with sane people.
I guess most of the poll respondents are insane then!
Nice! You completely missed the point again! As usual.
You did not have a point to miss. You were 'but it's not in the rules' and when I pointed out that there are conventions besides the rules, you didn't have an intelligible response and then started to imply that people who disagree with you are insane.
Weren't you the one who took offence when someone characterised non-painters as 'lazy?' Because, that's pretty polite compared to what you said...
Lance845 wrote: as you register your political party with your voting registration .
Only in America
Yeah, it's a incredibly broken system from top to bottom. But hey, lets steer clear of any actual political talk. That gak gets threads locked and people banned on Dakka.
The POINT is that this poll has no broader value about the social conventions of 40k players and what GW does in their ads means even less. The arguments that players should paint as some kind of "respect for their opponent" or whatever is a message spouted by those who drank GWs kool aid.
Painted armies are more appealing than non-painted armies. No kool aid involved.
To most people.
"Most" is enough. Most potential employers appreciate it if you dress nicely, so that's what you do.
Dressing nicely is a job requirement.
Liking or disliking something isn't against 40K's rules.
"most" is definitely not enough, at least if you're going to continue to claim that it's actually "all".
Dressing nicely for a interview is not a requirement. It is a good idea to game the system and increase your chances of winning. Are you insinuating that there is a correlation between painting your models well and your opponent deciding to throw the match in your favor because you dressed your models up?
You dress well to make a good impression. Likewise, painted models will help you make a good impression.
Lance845 wrote: The only standard that matters in the game is good sportsmanship.
I'd say knowing your rules and not constantly tabbing through your e-dex is pretty high up there. An incompetent "great sportsman" can really try the patience sometimes.
Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.
I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.
Other way around. The game, painting, and building/converting are all separate, and people can buy into which ever aspect they find appealing. I don't see you criticizing people who only collect and paint as 'ruining the hobby'.
If you're good at it, it's very important. If you're bad at it... eh, only if you enjoy it in spite of being bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 00:02:29
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.
I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.
So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?
Is this a fair comparison at all? Playing is a shared experience, when I paint a masterpiece you don't have to look at or even know. When you bring your unpainted stuff it lessens the game for for the other player and people who watch if you're in such a setting. Nothing here is mandatory, your army just looks bad when you do it. It's not unreasonable to decline games with somebody who doesn't paint the same way it is for someone who proxies or anything else undesirable. Feel free to play whoever for whatever reason and have a crappy looking army while doing it.
If you don't like playing against unpainted models, no one is forcing you. But you're being a jerk when you irrationally push your personal issues flaws onto other people and insist they follow a standard they haven't been following for a variety of reasons, including the fact that it is not a requirement of the game.
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Argive wrote: Not everyone has time/will/resources etc. etc. to paint.
Everyone sane understands that everyone has their own shtick.. And at the end of the day nobody really gives a damn..
But...
Lets imagine we have an infinity gauntlet and we snap our fingers and puff! Every grey plastic horde out there turns into solid table top standard army painted to users imagining…
Lets not kid ourselves, who would not want that to happen ?
I actually know a few people who would say no to that.
Mmmpi wrote: But you're being a jerk when you irrationally push your personal issues flaws onto other people and insist they follow a standard they haven't been following for a variety of reasons, including the fact that it is not a requirement of the game.
It is a requirement for the proper tabletop wargame experience and has been far longer than either of us has been alive. If you're insulted by me saying that, then so be it.
Poor hygiene is frowned upon. Not painting your models isn't. At least not with sane people.
I guess most of the poll respondents are insane then!
Nice! You completely missed the point again! As usual.
You did not have a point to miss. You were 'but it's not in the rules' and when I pointed out that there are conventions besides the rules, you didn't have an intelligible response and then started to imply that people who disagree with you are insane.
Weren't you the one who took offence when someone characterised non-painters as 'lazy?' Because, that's pretty polite compared to what you said...
You can just say you didn't get it. I can reword it to be easier for you to understand.
The difference between what you've done and what I've done is that you don't know the people you're talking to, while I have direct evidence that my claim is probably true.
Mmmpi wrote: But you're being a jerk when you irrationally push your personal issues flaws onto other people and insist they follow a standard they haven't been following for a variety of reasons, including the fact that it is not a requirement of the game.
It is a requirement for the proper tabletop wargame experience and has been far longer than either of us has been alive. If you're insulted by me saying that, then so be it.
Not insulted, though you seem to be by other people not magically following your standards. Then you go and call them lazy/WAAC/ect.
It's up to them to decide what their proper wargame experience is, not you. You don't have to play them. You're more then welcome to go do something else.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 00:15:23
So, can we all agree then that, if someone comes up to play against you with a grey tide, you aren't obligated to play against them, and you're not being impolite/rude to do so?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, can we all agree then that, if someone comes up to play against you with a grey tide, you aren't obligated to play against them, and you're not being impolite/rude to do so?
Depends on how you do it, but in general terms, yeah it's not impolite to refuse games for personal reasons. Telling someone who's already in a game with someone else that they're 'ruining the hobby', 'lazy', or 'WAAC', just because you don't like the state of their paint jobs however is.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, can we all agree then that, if someone comes up to play against you with a grey tide, you aren't obligated to play against them, and you're not being impolite/rude to do so?
As long as you are not yourself impolite or rude in turning down a game anyone can always turn down a game. If you express that your reasons for turning down the game is their unpainted models you are being impolite/rude and bringing negativity into a inclusive game space where everyone should be welcome to have a good time and introducing gatekeeping to your community.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Because the hobby is separate from the game, and should be.
I don't think that is the case. The game is part of the hobby and you cannot separate it from it nor you should.
So, let me pose you the same question I asked above. If you sat down to play against someone and they pulled out an all-grey-plastic army, would you be EXACTLY as upset as if you saw someone painting a BEAUTIFUL masterpiece miniature, and then found out they don't play the game?
Is this a fair comparison at all? Playing is a shared experience, when I paint a masterpiece you don't have to look at or even know. When you bring your unpainted stuff it lessens the game for for the other player and people who watch if you're in such a setting. Nothing here is mandatory, your army just looks bad when you do it. It's not unreasonable to decline games with somebody who doesn't paint the same way it is for someone who proxies or anything else undesirable. Feel free to play whoever for whatever reason and have a crappy looking army while doing it.
If you don't like playing against unpainted models, no one is forcing you. But you're being a jerk when you irrationally push your personal issues flaws onto other people and insist they follow a standard they haven't been following for a variety of reasons, including the fact that it is not a requirement of the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: Not everyone has time/will/resources etc. etc. to paint. Everyone sane understands that everyone has their own shtick.. And at the end of the day nobody really gives a damn..
But...
Lets imagine we have an infinity gauntlet and we snap our fingers and puff! Every grey plastic horde out there turns into solid table top standard army painted to users imagining…
Lets not kid ourselves, who would not want that to happen ?
I actually know a few people who would say no to that.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, can we all agree then that, if someone comes up to play against you with a grey tide, you aren't obligated to play against them, and you're not being impolite/rude to do so?
As long as you are not yourself impolite or rude in turning down a game anyone can always turn down a game. If you express that your reasons for turning down the game is their unpainted models you are being impolite/rude and bringing negativity into a inclusive game space where everyone should be welcome to have a good time and introducing gatekeeping to your community.
How about "sorry, I'm just not keen on playing against unpainted models. That's only my stance on it, so feel free to play against other people who don't mind, but I'm not comfortable doing that." Why should I have to withhold that? Surely it would be better to tell the truth, if I felt so strongly on the matter?
It's not gatekeeping - that's just making your own standards clear. If I made it clear that I'm only happy playing narrative games/non-comp games, am I gatekeeping if I turn people away because of my preference? I'm not insulting them or making any comments against them (like Mmmpi says would be rude - which I agree with could be) - I'm just stating my personal boundaries in advance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 00:34:33
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, can we all agree then that, if someone comes up to play against you with a grey tide, you aren't obligated to play against them, and you're not being impolite/rude to do so?
As long as you are not yourself impolite or rude in turning down a game anyone can always turn down a game. If you express that your reasons for turning down the game is their unpainted models you are being impolite/rude and bringing negativity into a inclusive game space where everyone should be welcome to have a good time and introducing gatekeeping to your community.
Im confused....
If they asked why he is turning down a game, what then ??
Should he lie to them?
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So, can we all agree then that, if someone comes up to play against you with a grey tide, you aren't obligated to play against them, and you're not being impolite/rude to do so?
As long as you are not yourself impolite or rude in turning down a game anyone can always turn down a game. If you express that your reasons for turning down the game is their unpainted models you are being impolite/rude and bringing negativity into a inclusive game space where everyone should be welcome to have a good time and introducing gatekeeping to your community.
How about "sorry, I'm just not keen on playing against unpainted models. That's only my stance on it, so feel free to play against other people who don't mind, but I'm not comfortable doing that." Why should I have to withhold that? Surely it would be better to tell the truth, if I felt so strongly on the matter?
It's not gatekeeping - that's just making your own standards clear. If I made it clear that I'm only happy playing narrative games/non-comp games, am I gatekeeping if I turn people away because of my preference? I'm not insulting them or making any comments against them (like Mmmpi says would be rude - which I agree with could be) - I'm just stating my personal boundaries in advance.
YOU doing that could encourage OTHERS to do that. An elitist attitude breeds elitism. You are introducing gatekeeping into your community, as I said. If thats your line, keep it to yourself. Help them find another opponent. Be a good neighbor and encourage the perpetuation of playing and having a good time in your community. And if you can't/don't want to. Then don't show up. You're bad for the community.
And before anyone decides to call THAT gatekeeping, your talking about the paradox of intolerance. It is not intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance. Every community has a right if not a responsibility to protect itself from those kinds of practices.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 00:42:52
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
...you can call it "elitist" and "gatekeeping" all you want. But if I decide I want to play a fully painted army against a fully painted army, you are NOT entitled to my time at the table. You are NOT in any position at all to dictate that I am wrong for being selective with what I do with my time and choosing my opponent. You can dislike it. You can question it. You can scream about it. You can sit in the floor and cry. You have ZERO claim to anything I do in my recreational time, it does not belong to you.
Now, that being said I've never turned down an unpainted army from a new player or a person with a new army. I've got friends that will buy an army, and before they paint it they'll test out a few things and then decide on a subfaction. And sometimes it takes a while to figure out what you want to do. I get that. However, when I see veteran players that have had an army for a while... it makes me question their motivations for playing, that perhaps it's more 'competitive game' to them and less 'hobby game'. And many times, I have been proven correct- so, I tend to watch for a while before making any judgement, but I certainly am hesitant to play against a Grey Horde.
But sometimes I also want to take pictures of a game for the store, or for my personal collection, or for a friend's social media. Grey models don't draw in the same as painted models. And also, I'm not a complete knob about it- if someone needs help painting, chances are I've got something that also needs some paint and we can divide and conquer together on both of our projects. I push for 'terrain upkeep' at my shop, so if someone needs help painting... they can come in and help with the terrain and I'll help with their models.
Octopoid wrote: In fact, who are you to decide who is and isn't worthy? Do you have some magical, omniscient paint-o-meter that can look at two players, both with the same unpainted army, and say, "Huh, that one's been playing Too Long for me to approve of that"?
I can answer that for him:
He's a person that also wants to play the game. And he has every right to refuse to play against something. It's his recreation time, not a public service. You weren't invited to play with him, and he did not request to play with you. Why his personal standards would upset you is baffling.
Look, you can have whatever standards you want. Everyone's got an opinion, after all. But not everyone who collects and plays 40k is capable of much in the way of painting, and saying "I refuse to play with anyone who doesn't paint their miniatures to my standards" is textbook gatekeeping even if you don't like to think about it that way. That said, there's nothing exactly stopping you from saying that this form of gatekeeping is something you refuse to back down from, particularly if they're still able to find games without you. And hey, fair enough if so.
The game by default always has some levels of gatekeeping. Games Workshop tournaments gatekeep by saying use their miniatures, which hurt poorer players a lot, for example.
No clue about the others, but I'm not judging you for it. I'm just wanting you to be aware of what you're doing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 00:40:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Lance845 wrote: YOU doing that could encourage OTHERS to do that. An elitist attitude breeds elitism. You are introducing gatekeeping into your community, as I said. If thats your line, keep it to yourself. Help them find another opponent. Be a good neighbor and encourage the perpetuation of playing and having a good time in your community. And if you can't/don't want to. Then don't show up. Your bad for the community.
We are NOT a community. We are individuals from multiple communities. Not all gaming groups are the same and should never be assumed as such, because we all have our own little cliques and there's different communities for different kinds of people.
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Melissia wrote: Look, you can have whatever standards you want. Everyone's got an opinion, after all. But not everyone who collects and plays 40k is capable of much in the way of painting, and saying "I refuse to play with anyone who doesn't paint their miniatures to my standards" is textbook gatekeeping even if you don't like to think about it that way. That said, there's nothing exactly stopping you from saying that this form of gatekeeping is something you refuse to back down from, particularly if they're still able to find games without you. And hey, fair enough if so.
Why is gatekeeping my personal recreation time a bad thing? My gaming time is not a public service.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/14 00:41:13
Look, all I'm doing is telling you to stop being in denial of what you're doing. Own up to it.
Whether or not it is "bad" depends on a thousand different variables and essentially comes down to "it depends entirely on the individual situation and how you choose to act in each one". Your free time is valuable and it belongs to you, not other people. But the same could be said for all those other people, and it's not as simple as "[x] is bad always and forever".
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Mmmpi wrote: Not insulted, though you seem to be by other people not magically following your standards.
Not just my standard. Like I said in the post you just quoted, it it the standard that has existed in the miniature wargames for longer than either of us has been alive. Ultimately I feel that eroding that standard will in the long run be very harmful to the health of this hobby. The visual spectacle is a big part of what makes this game appealing to many people, and attracts new players, and if that vanished from the gaming tables in the stores the game itself will eventually follow.
Games are, by their nature, an inclusive activity. Games are more or less little engines designed to produce good times. Communities that crop up around games are breeding grounds for one of the purest best things in the world. People just having a good time with each other.
Gatekeeping that is antithesis to everything games are. It's bad in the purest sense of the word.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Melissia wrote: Look, all I'm doing is telling you to stop being in denial of what you're doing. Own up to it.
I openly and happily gatekeep my private time, my gaming groups, and pretty much every aspect of my life that is a matter of personal choice unless I am inable to do so or it is not my right to do so.
I have absolutely zero regrets doing so. Strict gatekeeping, especially with my recreational activities, has made all of my hobbies much more interesting and pleasant.
Mmmpi wrote: Not insulted, though you seem to be by other people not magically following your standards.
Not just my standard. Like I said in the post you just quoted, it it the standard that has existed in the miniature wargames for longer than either of us has been alive. Ultimately I feel that eroding that standard will in the long run be very harmful to the health of this hobby. The visual spectacle is a big part of what makes this game appealing to many people, and attracts new players, and if that vanished from the gaming tables in the stores the game itself will eventually follow.
Then you go and call them lazy/WAAC/ect.
Have I done that?
Your standard. You claim it is, but that hasn't been true for the last almost 20 years. What standard is being eroded? Your magical standards, or the real world ones that people only follow when they want to?
The visual spectacle is important to you. I like having my models painted, but whether or not my opponent has his painted is something I could care less about. It doesn't effect my immersion in any way, and even if it did, it's not my place to tell my opponent how he should treat his minis.
Your prediction of doom and gloom hasn't been true for two decades. So, when is this game death apocalypse supposed to happen?
Lance845 wrote: Gatekeeping that is antithesis to everything games are. It's bad in the purest sense of the word.
No, it isn't.
Do you allow bigots? Hostile troublemakers? Drama-queens (male or female)? People who neglect hygiene? Cheaters? Thieves? Perverts?
If the answer to any of these is 'no', then you understand the purpose of gatekeeping and that unrestricted entitlement to an activity is what ruins communities.
Eldar- 4436 pts
