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 Lance845 wrote:
For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

That you would evoke it in this sort of a context shows massive lack of understanding and respect in your part. Hint: people not wanting to play with you because you didn't paint your toy soldier is not bigotry.

 Lance845 wrote:
For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

Ahh... the philosophy of your argument is invalid because I deem it so. Of course.. sorry how could anyone forget. I guess we cant all be philosophy aficionados..

Comparing Nazi ideas of intolerance to a hobby time preference is a facepalm level of a stretch... You do yourself no favours beating this drum and its pretty cringy by now..

Look, I disagree with the "don't play with people who don't paint" crew, too. But it's their free time. They get to decide how to spend it. I don't own them.

That said I'll gladly play with the people they'll ignore or look down upon.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

No, YOU don't get it.

I am not telling others what to do, YOU are.

I am only saying what I will do with my own time. You have no right to what I do with my time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Not sure why you're arguing against me, I've been saying your exact post for four days now.

AH, I didn't mean it to sound like that. I was more springboarding off what you said. Sorry, man!

I didn't tell you what to do with your time. I told you what impact I feel like gatekeeping has on the community and that the community should protect itself from it.

Crimson wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

That you would evoke it in this sort of a context shows massive lack of understanding and respect in your part. Hint: people not wanting to play with you because you didn't paint your toy soldier is not bigotry.

The philosophy is not only about bigotry. The philosophy is broad and encompassing and applies to any situation where one group wants to promote acceptance while protecting itself from those that want to build barriers. In this particular case I have seen members of this forums suggest that FLGS's should implement policies that require painted miniatures to play. Which I am opposed to, in accordance with the paradox of tolerance. I didn't say this had to do with biggotry. I said it had to do with toxic behavior. Because it does.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
For someone who says they understand the paradox of tolerance and that it is not hard you sure don't seem to get it at all.

Ahh... the philosophy of your argument is invalid because I deem it so. Of course.. sorry how could anyone forget. I guess we cant all be philosophy aficionados..

Comparing Nazi ideas of intolerance to a hobby time preference is a facepalm level of a stretch... You do yourself no favours beating this drum and its pretty cringy by now..

It is full on incredible that a few people on here cannot understand the underlying concept and apply it to a situation.

 Melissia wrote:
Look, I disagree with the "don't play with people who don't paint" crew, too. But it's their free time. They get to decide how to spend it. I don't own them.

See? You get it.

 Melissia wrote:
That said I'll gladly play with the people they'll ignore or look down upon.

And don't get it confused, though- no one's being ignored or looked down on. At least in my case.

It's like... well, okay.

I am tired of playing against Eldar. Like, ten people I know have Eldar and I just want to play against something different. I don't look down on Eldar players, I don't look down on them. I just want a different experience.

I also get tired of playing on 'standard rural battlefield' tables. Sometimes I just want to play on the city map.

I get tired of 40k. I wanna do Necromunda, or Sigmar, or Warcry, or another game entirely.

Sometimes, I just want an experience that caters to my preference or breaks the standard.

I know painting isn't easy. I'm usually the first to ask if someone needs help. I can give them tips (I'm mediocre at best) or point them towards a person they can hire. And hey, I love taking a whole saturday just to sit and paint and talk while we listen to the radio or let some movies play. It's good for me, too- because I get lazy if I'm not social.

Or maybe they will tell me why they're not painted "I'm trying out chapter tactics before I settle on something". "I'm considering a few paint schemes but I wanna see how it'd actually look". Well, there- I might be able to help.

But yeah, sometimes... I just wanna look at a table and see all the painted models together and appreciate it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I didn't tell you what to do with your time. I told you what impact I feel like gatekeeping has on the community and that the community should protect itself from it.

So, you're not telling me what to do.

You're just trying to tell everyone else what to do because you don't like what I do.

Wow.

That's pretty damned intolerant.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Not sure why you're arguing against me, I've been saying your exact post for four days now.

AH, I didn't mean it to sound like that. I was more springboarding off what you said. Sorry, man!

Not a problem, just didn't realize what you were doing. My bad!

The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

The community should indeed be protected from YOUR toxic behaviour of lowering standards and gatekeeping people with higher standards.

Because logic right ?

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

"The community" is a group of individuals that are capable of thinking for themselves.

I am not gatekeeping for a community. I am gatekeeping for myself. It's called a 'preference', and you have no right to it. At all.

If me determining how I will spend my time, who I will play with, and what I want to do is considered "toxic" then that's the EXACT type of community I want nothing to do with. That community is overstepping their bounds by attempting to control my personal choices and I'll have nothing to do with it.

But based on the way you're talking to people, and your bizarre delusion that your personal opinions on what is "toxic" is some universal factual standard... I'm not sure you're familiar with being a part of a community.

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

The community should indeed be protected from YOUR toxic behaviour of lowering standards and gatekeeping people with higher standards.

Because logic right ?

Thats why the philosophy is called "The Paradox of Tolerance."

Try to keep up.

attacking people for gate keeping really is pointless, the best way to deal with it is simply not to do it yourself, gate kept portions of a community tend to shrink and siolate themselves over time.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

"The community" is a group of individuals that are capable of thinking for themselves.

Correct. And the community will either accept toxic behavior and becomes more toxic itself or not.

I am not gatekeeping for a community. I am gatekeeping for myself. It's called a 'preference', and you have no right to it. At all.

Correct again. You can feel however you want and suffer all the consequences, good and bad, for your actions.

If me determining how I will spend my time, who I will play with, and what I want to do is considered "toxic" then that's the EXACT type of community I want nothing to do with. That community is overstepping their bounds by attempting to control my personal choices and I'll have nothing to do with it.

But based on the way you're talking to people, and your bizarre delusion that your personal opinions on what is "toxic" is some universal factual standard... I'm not sure you're familiar with being a part of a community.

Sure. Why not?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

The community should indeed be protected from YOUR toxic behaviour of lowering standards and gatekeeping people with higher standards.

Because logic right ?

Thats why the philosophy is called "The Paradox of Tolerance."

Try to keep up.

So you admit to gate keeping and being toxic?
Excellent news.

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

The community should indeed be protected from YOUR toxic behaviour of lowering standards and gatekeeping people with higher standards.

Because logic right ?

Thats why the philosophy is called "The Paradox of Tolerance."

Try to keep up.

So you admit to gate keeping and being toxic?

No. Please educate yourself.

 Lance845 wrote:
Correct. And the community will either accept toxic behavior and becomes more toxic itself or not.

A preference that you do not agree with is not 'toxic'. Your standards for 'toxic' are not the universal standard (thank God).

 Lance845 wrote:
Correct again. You can feel however you want and suffer all the consequences, good and bad, for your actions.

Here's the thing- I've yet to discover some amazing individual that my personal preferences have kept away. None. Do some people disagree? Certainly, because people have different preferences. But we're adults and we can agree to disagree and find something else we both like and enjoy, and still be friends.

 Lance845 wrote:
Sure. Why not?

I've never seen someone compare a preference for war toy games to the actions of a genocidal fascist regime responsible for the death of millions. Usually, gatekeeping keeps that kind of insane stuff away from civil adults.

I can't wait to tell my Jewish buddies that me not wanting to play against certain armies is just like loading their grandparents up on the train to Dachau.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

The community should indeed be protected from YOUR toxic behaviour of lowering standards and gatekeeping people with higher standards.

Because logic right ?

Thats why the philosophy is called "The Paradox of Tolerance."

Try to keep up.

So you admit to gate keeping and being toxic?

No. Please educate yourself.

Yes. Please educate yourself.
Isn't this fun..

I never said those things were the same. I said the philosophy can be applied to more situations then racial bigotry. You carrying it to that is YOU carrying it to that. The comic uses that imagery to illustrate the point for people who have trouble understanding the concept, but I, at no point, stated that they were equivalent.

I DID say, repeatedly, that the community has a right to protect itself from people who bring with it crap behavior. If you want to catastrophize it into race thats on you.

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

You're making it sound like he's campaigning to have every store in the country change their policies.. I think everyone here, you included, needs to take a step back and let this thread die.

If his "community" is a close knit bunch of friends that have their own expectations and ultimately "requirements" on how they like to play the game - with house rules, painted models, list restrictions.. whatever it is - and that group is happy to play like that, why does it bother you so much? You don't play with them so who cares.

 Lance845 wrote:
I DID say, repeatedly, that the community has a right to protect itself from people who bring with it crap behavior.

So, are you saying that those individuals that compose the community have a right to determine how they will spend their recreational time?

If so, you're supporting gatekeeping and it's toxic, by your standards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The community has a right to protect itself from toxic behavior. If YOU are of the opinion that it's good for the community to gate keep then the community should protect itself from you.

You're making it sound like he's campaigning to have every store in the country change their policies.. I think everyone here, you included, needs to take a step back and let this thread die.

If his "community" is a close knit bunch of friends that have their own expectations and ultimately "requirements" on how they like to play the game - with house rules, painted models, list restrictions.. whatever it is - and that group is happy to play like that, why does it bother you so much? You don't play with them so who cares.

Yeah. Basically, 'live and let live'. You do you, baby. I'll do me. And if you don't like it, you don't gotta deal with it.

I find my stance on painting to be justified under Kant's Categorical Imperative. Super compelling, I know.

Lance, stop embarrassing yourself. You're trying to apply a serious moral philosophical concept in a context to which it doesn't belong. Your definition of 'intolerance' is so absurdly broad, that under that logic most of normal customs, manners, traditions and other such everyday behavioural mores would be classified as 'intolerance.' This is both painfully stupid and insulting to victims of actual intolerance.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

There will be plenty of people out there that will disagree with this statement but ultimately you're not wrong and it's your hobby. Outside of tournaments no one should ever feel forced to play against someone or allocate an afternoon to something that will not be enjoyable.

I've got a young family and I've found my free hobby time become increasingly smaller as time passes, whilst I'm sure this will improve later down the track but for now I find myself being more selective myself over who I play and what I'm looking for out of a game.

You've got children it seems, and I can tell you- if you intend to involve your children in your hobbies it is very, very wise to be selective of where you play and who you play with. Kudos to you, I hope you get more free time to enjoy your hobby.

May your children never ask for Tau.

Cheers mate, they are still quite young but I'm intending to introduce them to the hobby later on (telling my wife it's to help develop their motor skills and creativity )

How long will the line "sorry, but they are sold out on Tau today" last?

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

There will be plenty of people out there that will disagree with this statement but ultimately you're not wrong and it's your hobby. Outside of tournaments no one should ever feel forced to play against someone or allocate an afternoon to something that will not be enjoyable.

I've got a young family and I've found my free hobby time become increasingly smaller as time passes, whilst I'm sure this will improve later down the track but for now I find myself being more selective myself over who I play and what I'm looking for out of a game.

You've got children it seems, and I can tell you- if you intend to involve your children in your hobbies it is very, very wise to be selective of where you play and who you play with. Kudos to you, I hope you get more free time to enjoy your hobby.

May your children never ask for Tau.

Cheers mate, they are still quite young but I'm intending to introduce them to the hobby later on (telling my wife it's to help develop their motor skills and creativity )

How long will the line "sorry, but they are sold out on Tau today" last?

It'll last until they learn to read. Then you'll have to switch to "those are display only".

Your reasons for the wife are really good ones (assuming you didn't already know that of course).

I've been expressly forbidden from showing my nephew any of my cool toy soliders

Were on Lego still but im sure that wall will come crashing down sooner or later.

You know what isn't tolerated in my FLGS?

Bullying. The owner, nor any of the employees, nor our regulars have any tolerance for it. At all.

We have a guy that doesn't like playing Imperium vs. Imperium. He won't do it.

We have a dude that doesn't like anything demonic or Satanic, and he doesn't like to play with or against those things. His reasons are his own.

A D&D group does not like people playing evil characters. That's fine, they are within their rights to do so. They enjoy their game and welcome people who do not want to play evil characters.

These individuals never bother anyone. At most, they respectfully decline people. They offer alternatives after politely explaining their preferences.

They are welcome in the FLGS and people generally like them, even if they do not agree with or understand their preferences.

If anyone came in and tried to demand that the other players shun them or push them away- that person would be removed from the store immediately (to loud applause) and banned permanently. Not only that, but their behavior and a description would be forwarded to all the other gaming clubs and FLGS' in the area, which would very likely follow suit.

Bullying is toxic. And it is not tolerated.

That's gatekeeping. And it's good.

Even a base primer layer is better than grey plastic. At the very least, it can help achieve a basic theme.

Typically the quality of paint jobs on the tabletop does not concern me. If I show up and the models are actually painted, that makes me world's happier than fighting the grey horde. Unpainted models won't stop me from playing the game though.

One thing that is actually important to me: the models on the other side being at least mostly assembled and effectively representing the gear they are carrying. One time I played a game where the opposing side's devastators were represented by SM legs on bases - and nothing else. At that point it was difficult to ID what I was fighting.

(BTW, I play with a 99% fully painted force. It's a rarity in my area and it does attract attention. It's cool. )

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Likewise, painted models will help you make a good impression.

To you.

Let's not forget the poll indicates that paint matters at least a little to over 90% of participants, or that it draws more attention to the game board in a store, that GW advertises with painted models because of that impression, and major tournaments require it.

So maybe not just me.

My Club is pretty decent. Only thing I don't like is I don't attend as much as I would like to!

I'll throw down with everyone really apart form there's only one guy I avoid but that's because he's a very sore looser and gets upset if you take a dig, but of course he gloats obnoxiously to no end if he wins... (We all know the undeveloped man child type). I just cant be dealing with it.

All of the private gaming groups I am a part of have painting requirements. But we also have painting workshops. Usually these take place leading up to league seasons.

If you don't have painted models, it doesn't hurt to say "I don't paint mine because I suck at painting". You might not actually suck. Or, you might find plenty of people willing to help you out and show you what you're doing wrong.

And if you don't want them painted, so be it. It's your property.

When I started playing again a few years ago, I didn't have time to do much painting. I got the some of the base painting done, and a bit of other things- but over all, my army wasn't painted. Someone said they'd help me out if I'd buy them a boxed set (the store limited boxed sets to 1 per customer for the first two weeks after release).

So, yeah. Don't be afraid to ask for help.

Also don't be a harsh critic of yourself. To this very day, I can't edge highlight worth a damn. But I know someone who'll edge a whole squad if you order pizza.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Likewise, painted models will help you make a good impression.

To you.

Let's not forget the poll indicates that paint matters at least a little to over 90% of participants, or that it draws more attention to the game board in a store, that GW advertises with painted models because of that impression, and major tournaments require it.

So maybe not just me.

I remember the poll indicating that 90% of participants had interest in painting their models. Don't recall that poll including anything else in your post.

Major tournaments do what they want. They're private organizations. Notice how many of them have their own rules too?
No one is called lazy though for not going to a major tournament.
As for the part about GW...this has already been discussed. You're still wrong.

 Mmmpi wrote:
As for the part about GW...this has already been discussed. You're still wrong.

GW doesn't care about what you do with your own stuff, but at least in the GW stores I've been to- any time there's an event they want your models painted to tabletop standards.


I don't agree with it. It looks nice, but then you've got them policing armies for third party bits. A friend of mine got asked to take his models off the table because he had heraldry icons from shapeways.