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 Ishagu wrote:
If people have absolutely no interest in having painted models they are in the wrong hobby, let's be honest. Not your top priority? That's perfectly understandable.

Priorities are different for everyone, no question about that, but if you literally don't intend or even desire to have a painted army I question why you would chose this very particular, visuals focused game?

So, when you go and say this to people, and they laugh in your face, what do you do then?

I laugh back in their face.

And I certainly won't engage in a game with someone who's made no effort and dis-respects the intent behind this hobby.

Are you one of these people who can't paint or refuses to paint their models? Enjoy playing by yourself or in a really limited "Hermit Group"
This game has a strong focus on visuals and the social contract, don't take away from people's experience.

 Ishagu wrote:
I laugh back in their face.

And I certainly won't engage in a game with someone who's made no effort and dis-respects the intent behind this hobby.

Are you one of these people who can't paint or refuses to paint their models? Enjoy playing by yourself or in a really limited "Hermit Group"
This game has a strong focus on visuals and the social contract, don't take away from people's experience.

Prove that it's the intent behind the hobby.

Remember, people have spent days and pages failing at that. I hope you can come up with something better than what they did.

I've already said my preferences. You can go back and read them if you like.
And by visuals you mean 3d tokens to represent game pieces. And by social contract you mean not being a jerk and following the rules. None of which involve paint. Unless you care to quote a page in the rules. So far no one else has been able to.

If you don't like playing against unpainted models don't. But don't think that your preference means anything to anyone else. Someone who doesn't care a whit about painting is just as much a part of this hobby as you are.

Games Workshop don't advertise unpainted models. They don't show people playing with grey miniatures in their promotional material for 40k.

They advertise beautiful, painted models and sell lots of paints, and a massive range of hobby supplies. There is a strong visual impact to a painted army on a well modelled battlefield.

Your selfish attitude, centred on yourself and not the enjoyment of your opponent, shows a failure to grasp the reality of the social contract and the spirit of the hobby. Thankfully you are a minority and not really worth consideration. And make no mistake, I will never agree to play against you.

 Ishagu wrote:
Games Workshop don't advertise unpainted models. They don't show people playing with grey miniatures in their promotional material for 40k.

They advertise beautiful, painted models and sell lots of paints, and a massive range of hobby supplies.

So? That's a marketing tool, not an intent. You flat out said why they show painted models. If the intent was for people to use painted models, it would be in the rules.

I honestly expected something new, not something dredged up from the last few days.

Try again.

They don't allow unpainted models in their gaming events.

Now you prove to me that they want us to play with unpainted models.


Such a selfish attitude, no interest in creating an enjoyable playing experience for your opponent.

 Ishagu wrote:
They don't allow unpainted models in their gaming events.

Now you prove to me that they want us to play with unpainted models.

Neither does ITC. What's your point?

My proof that they don't?

The models are unpainted, they don't give painting instructions, there's no rule about paint in the book.

Three reasons.

Such a selfish attitude, no interest in creating an enjoyable playing experience for your opponent.

I'm not the one forcing my attitude onto other people. You're the selfish jerk. Sorry you're incapable of enjoying 40K. Have you considered selling all of your stuff and buying gundam kits? Then you wouldn't have to 'worry' about what other people do with their hobby time.

The game is a social contract between players. This is not a video game. The participants are responsible not just for their own enjoyment, but the enjoyment of their opponent.

Your crappy looking army put together with no effort and no intent for future improvement, and your clearly selfish attitude, would not give me any enjoyment. Doing the absolute minimum and expecting to be applauded.

Also you've just pointed out, you would not be allowed in a competitive event, and I would also avoid you in a casual setting as well.

"Models require assembly and painting" it says so on the box I have right in front of me. And they also have a bunch of color schemes and paints on the box as well. They have been selling a hobby magazine for decades with instructions on how to paint btw.

If painting wasnt part of the intent of the hobby they would probably sell cheap soft plastic that comes prepainted like heroclix or the old star wars miniature game. Could make a killing selling them in expensive boosters making their current 30$ characters look cheap.

They come unpainted so you can paint them in whatever color you want. It is so you have more artistic freedom.

If the intent wasnt to get them painted they wouldnt spend so much time making the models highly detailed. They could just as well stopped updating the space marine sculpts after the first plastic kit. Unless you actually paint the models you dont really see most of the details that newer kits have.

Klickor wrote:
"Models require assembly and painting" it says so on the box I have right in front of me.

Lol brilliant

 Ishagu wrote:
The game is a social contract between two people. This is not a video game. The participants are responsible not just for their own enjoyment, but the enjoyment of their opponent.

Your crappy looking army put together with no effort and no intent for future improvement, and your clearly selfish attitude, would not give me any enjoyment.

There is a social contact between 2+ people. Follow the rules. Let me know which rule in the book that is.

My repsonsibility for my other person's enjoyment begins and ends with following the rules and not being a jerk. If they don't like unpainted models, they don't have to play me if I'm using any. But the minute they decide that a layer of colored water makes them better than anyone else, it's the minute they get treated the way they should for breaking said contract.

You haven't seen my armies, so you have no basis for comparison to your own shoddy work. You probably just pay someone to paint them anyway.

Which rule says I need to paint again? You have yet to give me a page.

You keep using that word, selfish. I'm certain that you don't know what that means. Should I link you a definition?

While I don't know you, I'm sure your attitude would be ample warning enough that I should avoid playing a game with you. I play for fun, not to show off my beautifully painted miniatures.
Why would I play a jerk like you?


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Klickor wrote:
"Models require assembly and painting" it says so on the box I have right in front of me. And they also have a bunch of color schemes and paints on the box as well. They have been selling a hobby magazine for decades with instructions on how to paint btw.

If painting wasnt part of the intent of the hobby they would probably sell cheap soft plastic that comes prepainted like heroclix or the old star wars miniature game. Could make a killing selling them in expensive boosters making their current 30$ characters look cheap.

They come unpainted so you can paint them in whatever color you want. It is so you have more artistic freedom.

If the intent wasnt to get them painted they wouldnt spend so much time making the models highly detailed. They could just as well stopped updating the space marine sculpts after the first plastic kit. Unless you actually paint the models you dont really see most of the details that newer kits have.

None of my boxes say that. Mine all say they come unassembled and unpainted.

Are those color schemes paint instructions, or are they just a list of more stuff they want you to buy? I mean, I have a box somewhere with a chimera in the background. Does that mean I have to buy a chimera for my guard army?

You mean the optional magazine that's half ads?

Giving artistic freedom is different than requiring an art investment. Why is this so difficult for you?

 Mmmpi wrote:

Prove that it's the intent behind the hobby.

Remember, people have spent days and pages failing at that. I hope you can come up with something better than what they did.

It is completely obvious and it has been proven beyond any reasoanble doubt several times. But it is impossible to engage with someone who refuses to engage with the reality, so no one can prove it to you.

 Ishagu wrote:

Klickor wrote:
"Models require assembly and painting" it says so on the box I have right in front of me.

Lol brilliant

You're both two dim bulbs. Nothing brilliant about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Prove that it's the intent behind the hobby.

Remember, people have spent days and pages failing at that. I hope you can come up with something better than what they did.

It is completely obvious and it has been proven beyond any reasoanble doubt several times. But it is impossible to engage with someone who refuses to engage with the reality, so no one can prove it to you.

Not really that obvious. I mean, you might think it is, but you, by your own admission, lack the imagination to think why someone might not like the same things as you.

But you're right, I shouldn't engage with you. At least until you reengage with reality.

Klickor wrote:
"Models require assembly and painting" it says so on the box I have right in front of me.

Pictures? All my boxes say "Requires assembly", but not painting.

Brand new sisters box.

That box doesn't say it. Most do say it.

Also, are we actually entertaining the idea that GW don't want you to paint your models? Lol
Getting pretty silly on this forum.

 Ishagu wrote:
That box doesn't say it. Most do say it.

This is one of the newest boxes they make.


I'm not talking about something from 1997. This is 2019 product.

But then, I put up. You have yet to tell me where in the rules it says I have to paint.

Also, are we actually entertaining the idea that GW don't want you to paint your models? Lol
Getting pretty silly on this forum.

GW wants to sell paint. They don't care what you do with the stuff you buy though.

If you want less silly on the forum, stop being silly.

Remember that Social Contract I told you about? Clearly you don't understand the spirit of this hobby.

You're not a tournament player - you aren't allowed to enter most of them. You're not a lover of the hobby - you have no intention of even trying to get your army painted or to look nice. You probably don't even play the game, demonstrated by not understanding that the game, at it's best, relies on players making an effort for their opponent to have an enjoyable experience. Enjoy being a hermit lol

 Ishagu wrote:
Remember that Social Contract I told you about? Clearly you don't understand the spirit of this hobby.

You're not a tournament player. You're not a lover of the hobby. You probably don't even play the game. Enjoy being a hermit lol

The social contract that you got wrong?

You've yet to show that you're right about anything, and yet to prove that you're someone worth playing. Or drinking a beer next to.

Apparently I understand it better than you do, because at least I treat it as a hobby, and not some weird geek-religion.

I'm not a tournament player. If other people like them, more power to them. I could care less.

I love this hobby. I have longer than you've been alive. (you sound like you're 15)

Played last Monday, and going to a 'convention' on the 23rd of February. Don't really care if you believe me.

You should probably look up the definition of hermit. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

--
Quick question? Why are you so triggered by other people not enjoying things the exact way you do?

Now to see if you ninja edited in more insults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Remember that Social Contract I told you about? Clearly you don't understand the spirit of this hobby.

You're not a tournament player - you aren't allowed to enter most of them. You're not a lover of the hobby - you have no intention of even trying to get your army painted or to look nice. You probably don't even play the game. Enjoy being a hermit lol

There it is, there's the ninja insults.

How many tournaments have you been banned from again? All of them? See? I can make unfounded comments too. While we're at it, why do you have sex with chickens?

My army looks nicer than yours. Prove me wrong. Or I should say, the stuff I painted looks better than the stuff you painted.

Your hobby attitude is not shared by most, and your choices have excluded you from both competitive and narrative gaming (the most popular ways people generally play), so yes - that would make you a hobby hermit lol.

Don't paint your army, I'll never play against it.

We're getting into a weird space if we're gonna use the rules of the game as the sole basis of what standard of experience people might want out of 40k because, to use a previous post to illustrate the point, iirc nothing in the rules requires a player to not behave like a jerk.

text removed.

Some thoughts

1. GW expects most people will want to paint their models, and require them in offical tournaments or stores because they look better and are more enticing, but they are certainly more than happy to sell to people who have no interest in painting. It's important to remember that everything they do involving models is aimed partly at people who only do the modelling/painting side of the hobby and may never role a dice.

2. Painted models look better than unpainted models, even when the models are badly painted and everybody should be encouraged to paint their models when participating at gaming clubs/stores etc because it does genuinely make the experience a bit more enjoyable

3. I'd rather play someone that had grey plastic because they have no interest in painting, than someone who had painted everything but had the sort of personality where they think others are being selfish if they don't or think someone can't be a fan of the hobby if they don't paint. It's just a game, it's not that serious.

This desire to see clear outlines for what should and shouldn't be done demonstrates a baffling lack of social aptitude.

Where does it say in the rules of this game I can't throw dice at your face? lol

text removed.

Reds8n

I'm not triggered at all. I love exposing people lacking social aptitude. You clearly don't understand how most people in the hobby think, and what people can do to create an enjoyable experience for those they engage with.

I honestly think you two should bring your enlightened discussion into the sphere of pm's.

 Ishagu wrote:
I'm not triggered at all. I love exposing people lacking social aptitude. You clearly don't understand how most people in the hobby think, and what people can do to create an enjoyable experience for those they engage with.

You're so triggered you don't even realize it.

So far I've shown a clearer idea than you have. I mean, I'm not forcing my idea of a good time onto other people, you are.

To help my opponent play a game, I follow the rules, and I don't act like a jerk. I mean act like an Ishagu.

 Mmmpi wrote:
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 nurgle5 wrote:
We're getting into a weird space if we're gonna use the rules of the game as the sole basis of what standard of experience people might want out of 40k because, to use a previous post to illustrate the point, iirc nothing in the rules requires a player to not behave like a jerk.

True, but if someone acts like a jerk, I'm not required to play them. I can just say no and go on with life. Same with paint. If I don't want to play someone who doesn't paint their stuff, I don't have to. But I have no right to tell them they can't play other people.

You might be better off arguing that someone telling other people what they can use on the tabletop (unpainted minis, etc) against a consenting opponent is behaving like a jerk, rather than arguing that painting miniatures isn't an intended part of the hobby IMHO.

Remember, just because painting is an intended part of the hobby, doesn't mean it's necessarily mandatory, particularly for two consenting people playing the game.

To follow the core rules and not act like a jerk is the absolute minimum one has to do.

This discussion is not about behaviour anyway, it was the statement made by Mmmpi that apparently GW don't intend for hobbyists to paint their armies. That's clearly not the case.
Unpainted armies don't have to be accepted by anyone.