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I'm just now phasing in autobolters. Because they were poo before. 90 bolter shots kills a depressingly low amount of chaff though.

Martel732 wrote:
Turn 1 charges were never winning in 8th.

Do we really want *any* action to win a game on T1?

That's a pacing error in design.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Turn 1 charges were never winning in 8th.

Do we really want *any* action to win a game on T1?

That's a pacing error in design.

aight, but the first shooting phase can allready be in some cases quite decisive.
Also putting the decisive turn into2 (deepstriking units) just pushes that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just now phasing in autobolters. Because they were poo before. 90 bolter shots kills a depressingly low amount of chaff though.

30 dudes.
on average.

Not Online!!! wrote:
aight, but the first shooting phase can allready be in some cases quite decisive.
Also putting the decisive turn into2 (deepstriking units) just pushes that out.

No argument there but I think the goal to aspire to is play-counterplay throughout the entire game.

In those respects, a player deploying chaff to as a screen from assault, and an assault player bringing in volume shooting to target chaff, is how things are supposed to work.

With RR 1's to hit and wound you are looking at 35 dead daemons or GEQ. About 30 if you have to advance to shoot with them. Thats a loyal 32 obliterated to the loyal 2.

 Xenomancers wrote:
With RR 1's to hit and wound you are looking at 35 dead daemons or GEQ. About 30 if you have to advance to shoot with them. Thats a loyal 32 obliterated to the loyal 2.

All of Martel's opponents field 6.0221409x10^23 guardsmen - they stick to avogadro's number because it still allows them to fit 76 basilisks in a 2,000 point list. Unless you can figure a way to kill a Mole of guardsmen in the first turn, blood angels will always be the worst army in the game.

30 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles, rerolling 1s to hit and wound, in Tactical doctrine, kill an average of 45 Guardsmen per turn, plus morale.

6 Aggressors, double firing, rerolling 1s, Tactical Doctrine, 57 kills on average out to 18", or 23" if you're Ultramarines. Then morale kicks in to mop up any survivors. That unit knocks out more than its cost in chaff in one full round of shooting. At 222pts that's not too hard to squeeze in to a well-rounded list.

Also, against equal points of Guardsmen, even just basic Intercessors (forget the Auto Bolt Rifles and forget the rerolls- just normal Bolt Rifles) still win handily, it just takes a while. They're roughly equally matched within 12", but at 12"-30" the Intercessors can still fire at full effectiveness. That's a huge edge for early-game chaff-clearing.

Bolter Discipline plus Tactical Doctrine gives you so much effective, long-ranged fire on your basic troops that you'll beat any chaff unit in an equal-points shootout; and even if they try to play the objective over killing, it's tough for chaff. I don't know how Marines could be having trouble with hordes right now.

Yoyoyo wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Not being able to interact with the enemy army leads to a frustrating play experience.

Screening a unit with a -3/4 to hit lord disco (or making it -2/-3 to hit) so I can't interact with it until it hits my lines is about as fun as playing Tau drone spam or eldar planes (with an army that isn't marines 2.0).

Isn't the fact 'you can't interact with it' more of an indication you built a list around nothing but min-maxed conventional shooting?

The AL trait only applies outside 12", Benediction of Darkness is only applicable in the shooting phase, Miasma can be denied. You also have autohitting weapons, mortal wounds, your own rerolls and bonuses to hit, sniping or assaulting the support HQs, etc.

If your only tool is a hammer, do you complain vociferously to GW when you encounter a tactical challenge that isn't a nail?

If GW gave everyone access to a tool box that can deal with the tactical challenges they present then I'd be okay with it but right now I have a rock (deathwatch, space wolves, dark angels ) I picked up off the side of the road and SM 2.0 have a professional grade 2,000 piece set.

Is your point that possessed bombs are good for the game? That they are balanced against most armies? That they are not powerful? Or that they need to have broken rules because SM 2.0 have broken rules?

SM 2.0 have re-defined the power curve for the game and any army/unit behind that curve is going to have a bad time. I'd rather see the biggest offenders in SM 2.0 brought down to reasonable levels than to require buffing things up to possessed bomb levels of absurdity.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Oh look, a thread supposedly about balance from Xeno. The poster who brought us such gems as "the Stompa is overpowered" and "the Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is probably the best shooting unit in the game, point for point".

I'll be taking the opinions within this thread and their objectivity with a hefty mountain of salt methinks.

wasn't the "Stompa is OP" thread a tongue in cheek thread about how now that it lost a whole 50 points (it's generally agreed to be a few HUNDRED over pointed) it's now "totally OP"? or was this another post I missed?

Yes, it was my post and it was entirely satirical....though some people like xeno actually tried to defend the stompa saying it wasn't that far off from being OP.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This was posted before the whopping 50 pt CA drop.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It probably 100 points to expensive. It scales so hard with stratagems like moore dakka and freebootas that it's just the kind of unit that they couldn't fix if they tried...

at 650 it would be extremely OP.

(It can’t make use of More Dakka strat)

Xeno makes statements without knowledge all the time. He also defends all things Marine to the death. I’d take his posts as tongue in cheek, to be honest.

100 points is a big deal. You know the Castellan going from 600 to 700 made a huge difference. ITT I am arguing for a nerf to marines top factions...

It absolutely can use the strat. The only requirement is being an ORK unit. With Free boota up (which is super easy to trigger with another unit) you are hitting on 4's with 5's generating extra hits. It's really strong when you get the combo off. I've seen a stompa kill its points in a single turn actually. Which is why I find it hilarious it gets complained about so much. Yeah it's not amazing...kind of like how a space marine falchion is not amazing ether 1050 points and doesn't even have an invune. Super heavies that can tripple their damage output for 2 CP are REALLY hard to balance. It really is a factor of like 100-150 which determines useless to OP in this situation.

....this is so bad I had to bring it up and correct it. From the Ork codex, page 124: If your army is battle-forged, all <CLAN> units in Ork Detachments (Excluding those in super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a Clan Kulture. So you CAN NOT give it a kulture unless you take it in a super heavy detachment which means you require 3 LOWs. Kill Tanks, Garg Squig and Stompa are your 3 options and guess what? That eats up all but about 270ish points (unless you want to actually arm your kill tanks). Let me know how competitive you really think that list is going to be. BTW, if it doesn't have a kulture you can't make it shoot twice because that requires either badmoons kulture OR the vigilus kulture which requires a fair bit of CP to even gain access to. So you either get basically zero CP to do anything with and 3 super sub par Super heavies OR you can take 1 crappy super heavy and can't give it any Strats anyway.

On AVERAGE a Stompa will hit (excluding modifiers) about 3-4 times with its Deff Kannon, and 3-4 times with its Supa Gatler, which will likely shoot twice so say 7 times to be fair. The Supa Rokkit will invariably miss and all other Dakka on the Stompa is basically useless (Big Shootas for the most part). So please tell me how 3-4 S10 -4 D6 damage shots and 7 S7 -2 1 dmg shots are making back 870pts in a single turn? I mean, even if the Stompa hit twice as often as it actually does it would still have a hard time making back that many points even under optimal circumstances unless your opponent shanked every single save and you made all your rolls for wounds.

Maybe trying to punch with power armor is just dumber than i already thought it was. I can see where vanilla doest care, but chaff still shuts down ba hard. I dont have time to clear while being blown apart. Just shooting back seems 300% better.

Chaff doesn't shut down anything these days. Horde is just bad unless your facing an army which is chock full of D2/Dd6 weapons. Which various builds now are - because Marines - but thats a meta skew, not the game.

About 12 months ago I thought all those Ork players whinging that 90 boys could be cleared a turn were exaggerating. I still, sort of, think they are. But clearing 60~ with most armies really isn't that difficult in a turn, and that's too much to do this hunker down on objectives, be there by the end strategy. By turn three you have nothing left.

For effective hordes I think you are pretty much down to Plaguebearers only (who got nerfed) - and that's because they give you the chance to be lucky. Guardsmen are very cheap - but you can mow them down in droves with very little shooting.

The idea someone showed up with 100+ termagants and you couldn't kill them is hard to credit even with synapse.

They still shut down power armor assault just fine. I understand that vanilla marines are not caring.

I never mentioned termagants. Although 100 would probably do the trick vs most BA lists.

"but you can mow them down in droves with very little shooting."

It still requires a ton of shots to deal with guardsmen. Maybe vanilla lists bring them, but power armor lists that pay for assault elements generally do not.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe trying to punch with power armor is just dumber than i already thought it was. I can see where vanilla doest care, but chaff still shuts down ba hard. I dont have time to clear while being blown apart. Just shooting back seems 300% better.

Speaking from a primary World Eater perspective, a 70/30% of melee to shooting works pretty solid in my experience. Double combi-bolter/havok launcher rhinos cut through blocking chaff pretty well and dual as party bus. I know loyalist dont get dakkafiends, but they kill primaris nicely. And Cerberus rapier batteries do WORK. Conversion beams have always more than paid for themselves in my experience. Especially with its rules to drop 2d6 extra hits if it kills a model in the unit and the units not destroyed.

But I also tend to add shooty terminators with chain axes or lightning claws to double dip and blow away one target and charge another, and I've always had land raiders earn back points by both delivering their payload and tearing wounds away from armor while they do it. And missile havoks just.. seem to work for me.

I dunno.. maybe my meta is a lot more outlier and casual, but I tend to run ranged support to soften up targets before hitting them with stupid good melee. I find it helps to also throw a LOT of threat saturation at people at once. If they have a lot of melee in their face, it's hard to destroy every unit the next turn because I've usually been able to charge some stuff, or clear enough chaff that theres no way I wont get something juicy next turn.

So maybe a list restructuring might help? Doesn't your army get flying psychic dreadnaughts? Or those funky primaris dreads with a dozen guns? You could run a leviathan dread too, right? I'm sort of jealous of just how many guns loyalists get to support their melee. Dont your sangy jump guys also get 2+ armor saves, and can run power weapons? Dont they get thunder hammers? (I'm legit not sure, I just know when my friend first got his bangle codex, a lot of stuff jumped out at me that I wish I had)

SemperMortis wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Oh look, a thread supposedly about balance from Xeno. The poster who brought us such gems as "the Stompa is overpowered" and "the Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is probably the best shooting unit in the game, point for point".

I'll be taking the opinions within this thread and their objectivity with a hefty mountain of salt methinks.

wasn't the "Stompa is OP" thread a tongue in cheek thread about how now that it lost a whole 50 points (it's generally agreed to be a few HUNDRED over pointed) it's now "totally OP"? or was this another post I missed?

Yes, it was my post and it was entirely satirical....though some people like xeno actually tried to defend the stompa saying it wasn't that far off from being OP.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This was posted before the whopping 50 pt CA drop.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It probably 100 points to expensive. It scales so hard with stratagems like moore dakka and freebootas that it's just the kind of unit that they couldn't fix if they tried...

at 650 it would be extremely OP.

(It can’t make use of More Dakka strat)

Xeno makes statements without knowledge all the time. He also defends all things Marine to the death. I’d take his posts as tongue in cheek, to be honest.

100 points is a big deal. You know the Castellan going from 600 to 700 made a huge difference. ITT I am arguing for a nerf to marines top factions...

It absolutely can use the strat. The only requirement is being an ORK unit. With Free boota up (which is super easy to trigger with another unit) you are hitting on 4's with 5's generating extra hits. It's really strong when you get the combo off. I've seen a stompa kill its points in a single turn actually. Which is why I find it hilarious it gets complained about so much. Yeah it's not amazing...kind of like how a space marine falchion is not amazing ether 1050 points and doesn't even have an invune. Super heavies that can tripple their damage output for 2 CP are REALLY hard to balance. It really is a factor of like 100-150 which determines useless to OP in this situation.

....this is so bad I had to bring it up and correct it. From the Ork codex, page 124: If your army is battle-forged, all <CLAN> units in Ork Detachments (Excluding those in super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a Clan Kulture. So you CAN NOT give it a kulture unless you take it in a super heavy detachment which means you require 3 LOWs. Kill Tanks, Garg Squig and Stompa are your 3 options and guess what? That eats up all but about 270ish points (unless you want to actually arm your kill tanks). Let me know how competitive you really think that list is going to be. BTW, if it doesn't have a kulture you can't make it shoot twice because that requires either badmoons kulture OR the vigilus kulture which requires a fair bit of CP to even gain access to. So you either get basically zero CP to do anything with and 3 super sub par Super heavies OR you can take 1 crappy super heavy and can't give it any Strats anyway.

On AVERAGE a Stompa will hit (excluding modifiers) about 3-4 times with its Deff Kannon, and 3-4 times with its Supa Gatler, which will likely shoot twice so say 7 times to be fair. The Supa Rokkit will invariably miss and all other Dakka on the Stompa is basically useless (Big Shootas for the most part). So please tell me how 3-4 S10 -4 D6 damage shots and 7 S7 -2 1 dmg shots are making back 870pts in a single turn? I mean, even if the Stompa hit twice as often as it actually does it would still have a hard time making back that many points even under optimal circumstances unless your opponent shanked every single save and you made all your rolls for wounds.

Thats why you take it in a Sumpreme command detachment - has 1 LOW slot. Then it gains clan culture and it hits on 4's with free bootas with 5's generating extra hits (more dakka). Which is statistically the same as hitting on 3's with the benefit that your good rolls can far exceed the total max number of shots hits. Again I will reiterate it is not amazing for the cost. It is not however useless. Stompa was also dropped in points. It has castellan level firepower with 12 additional wounds and repair up to 3 a turn and the ability to carry 20 dudes (you are probably paying about 100 points for that transport capacity you don't want).

The game I referenced was basically automatic. kills. Def cannon = auto dead repuslor executioner - 330 points - Super rocket easily killed a redemptor with 4 shots turning into 6 hits and 5 wounds....1 made 6 + save and 4d6 damage to do 13 wounds? easy. 160 Good roll on super gatler against and intercessor squad I dont remember precisely the wounds but it killed 8 primaris marines....didn't even use it's melee ability and it killed 650 points already...it charged into a unit of agressors and killed 3 of them. Theres 111 more points. Oh and he had about 26 wounds on him at the time not giving a FCK about it ether. Cause Ork BS doesn't degrade.

It's also asanine to expect units to kill their points value in 1 turn. If that was the case for even 5% of the units in the game the game would be over on turn 1 every game. Reiterating again that I don't think the stompa is amazing but if you build around it can remove 3 targets a turn pretty consistently. Much like a Castellan can. It just pays more for tarnport capacity and has a lot more wounds and self repair and is entirely reliant on free bootas + more dakka...which it turns out it actually can use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
They still shut down power armor assault just fine. I understand that vanilla marines are not caring.

I never mentioned termagants. Although 100 would probably do the trick vs most BA lists.

"but you can mow them down in droves with very little shooting."

It still requires a ton of shots to deal with guardsmen. Maybe vanilla lists bring them, but power armor lists that pay for assault elements generally do not.

The Ultramarines list I play would literally be in heaven vs a horde of gaurdsmen. Not only do I outrange them - I can outrange them all game and I can easily kill over 100 a turn ESP on turn 2+ - What I can't deal with probably is mass demolisher command tanks with plasma cannons and executioner russ spam (which basically no one takes.)

Martel732 wrote:
They still shut down power armor assault just fine. I understand that vanilla marines are not caring.

I never mentioned termagants. Although 100 would probably do the trick vs most BA lists.

"but you can mow them down in droves with very little shooting."

It still requires a ton of shots to deal with guardsmen. Maybe vanilla lists bring them, but power armor lists that pay for assault elements generally do not.

But people have explicitly shown that 3 units of intercessors, your core troops, will clear 30 guardsmen a turn. Unless you're trying really hard to get those into melee, which you shouldn't be, I don't see the issue?

10 incursors get a t1 charge, drop ~16 t3 5+/5++ models in melee alone if you really want to look at it that way.

bananathug wrote:
If GW gave everyone access to a tool box that can deal with the tactical challenges they present then I'd be okay with it but right now I have a rock (deathwatch, space wolves, dark angels ) I picked up off the side of the road and SM 2.0 have a professional grade 2,000 piece set.

I don't think the flashy new rules are out for those armies yet!

This thread should likely be locked, have someone arguing that SM is balanced because stompas are good....It's on p21 and there is nothing new to be said that is worthwhile.

Martel732 wrote:
They still shut down power armor assault just fine. I understand that vanilla marines are not caring.

I never mentioned termagants. Although 100 would probably do the trick vs most BA lists.

"but you can mow them down in droves with very little shooting."

It still requires a ton of shots to deal with guardsmen. Maybe vanilla lists bring them, but power armor lists that pay for assault elements generally do not.

What does your normal list look like? People have repeatedly pointed out the many ways SM (even BA) have to deal with horde infantry so at this point it just looks like a stubborn refusal to accept advice on your part. Many of those ways involve Troops, which don't vary that much between different Chapters. My last game was against an army with just over 100 gaunts and I did fine - smashed a bunch of them with the DC in T1, shot a whole bunch more to death with Troops and charged the remnants. I think the problem may be you're fixating on trying to kill 100+ models in a turn, which isn't going to happen in most games.

Lol I decided to drop by again and what do I see? Martel talking rubbish once again.

I'm not sure what Marines he's complaining about now? I thought he played Blood Angels? He hasn't seen them win any tournaments yet so he probably thinks they aren't any good lol

Give poor SM players +2 attack and extra -1 AP, since they can`t just stay and roll dice or better make them wound and hit automatically, cuz of reasons.

blaktoof wrote:
This thread should likely be locked, have someone arguing that SM is balanced because stompas are good....It's on p21 and there is nothing new to be said that is worthwhile.

I bet if we all work together, we can make it to page 30

On the Stompa:

Freebooterz ain't a guaranteed +1 to hit. In fact, against the top meta builds, you might proc it once a game, if you're lucky.

If the Stompa has "Castellan level firepower" (which plenty of folks would argue against) you still have to account for the fact that it costs well over twice what a Castellan costs.

The Stompa has no Invuln (and if you put a KFF Mek inside it, it only has a 5++ against shooting), which means any anti-armor firing is going either going to straight up wipe it (say goodbye to half your points in a single firing phase) or damage it to uselessness (as soon as it loses 10 Wounds, it hits on 6s at range).

It's enormous and will have trouble moving on any board with even a passable amount of terrain. And will be near to impossible to put in Cover and actually impossible to hide out of LOS.

Tldr; the Stompa may have firepower, but its durability is abysmal for its points and you'll be lucky to get even a single turn of shooting out of it.

I thought the Stompa thing was a joke... Are you guys being serious?

My SOB melee down a stompa something like 20 wounds, they are not that strong lol.

As long as we surround it in 200 grots, we can at least beat Blood Angels.

Maybe Martel is playing BA with like nothing but melee troops? So he doesn't have the shooting to cut down chaff, he has to get them in melee which having a ton of dudes prevents from getting to the choice bits/objective/what have you.

That's the only way I can think he's having so many issues with hordes. It would explain why he prefers ITC because with the anti-horde secondary he's at least getting VP for killing the screening chaff while with the CA missions he doesn't get squat for killing 100 guys if they prevent him from getting to an objective or whatnot.

 flandarz wrote:
On the Stompa:

Freebooterz ain't a guaranteed +1 to hit. In fact, against the top meta builds, you might proc it once a game, if you're lucky.

If the Stompa has "Castellan level firepower" (which plenty of folks would argue against) you still have to account for the fact that it costs well over twice what a Castellan costs.

The Stompa has no Invuln (and if you put a KFF Mek inside it, it only has a 5++ against shooting), which means any anti-armor firing is going either going to straight up wipe it (say goodbye to half your points in a single firing phase) or damage it to uselessness (as soon as it loses 10 Wounds, it hits on 6s at range).

It's enormous and will have trouble moving on any board with even a passable amount of terrain. And will be near to impossible to put in Cover and actually impossible to hide out of LOS.

Tldr; the Stompa may have firepower, but its durability is abysmal for its points and you'll be lucky to get even a single turn of shooting out of it.

Not knowing any better here the "well over twice what a castellan costs" is about 1600 points, that seems way off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
Maybe Martel is playing BA with like nothing but melee troops? So he doesn't have the shooting to cut down chaff, he has to get them in melee which having a ton of dudes prevents from getting to the choice bits/objective/what have you.

That's the only way I can think he's having so many issues with hordes. It would explain why he prefers ITC because with the anti-horde secondary he's at least getting VP for killing the screening chaff while with the CA missions he doesn't get squat for killing 100 guys if they prevent him from getting to an objective or whatnot.

This is a reasonable assumption but he claims to get his clock cleaned by ranged firepower all the time, so he's not in melee but simultaneously not shooting anything.

Codex: Blood Angels contains very few actual pure melee troops with no ranged weapons, none of them in the Troops slot, and contains vastly more units that have little to no melee capability and are specialised in shooting.

Playing them as pure melee specialists is putting yourself at a purposeful disadvantage. This is the same thing I say to anyone playing orks and insisting that they must use only melee units and nothing else.

Marines work best as generalists, with the possible exception of something like World Eaters, which are as close to being able to do a pure melee setup as any MEQ army.

If I were playing Blood Angels, I would concentrate 30-40% of my points to long ranged turn 1 anti infantry firepower, and the rest to turn 2 melee. That's easy to do with the highly capable long range or infiltrating troops choices the blood angels have. If you're really only willing to look at units that do their damage in melee...well, BA knife scouts return their points value in melee vs GEQ turn 1, so I hope you like knife scouts.

Dudeface wrote:

Not knowing any better here the "well over twice what a castellan costs" is about 1600 points, that seems way off.

I was under the impression you could field 3 of these things, with points to spare for a Guard Battalion. Maybe I just misread the gripes about it (back when Castellans were the trendy thing to complain about).

Even still, the Stompa costs more points for "comparable firepower" (only when using a specific Kultur and only if it procs) and significantly worse durability.

the_scotsman wrote:
Codex: Blood Angels contains very few actual pure melee troops with no ranged weapons, none of them in the Troops slot, and contains vastly more units that have little to no melee capability and are specialised in shooting.

Playing them as pure melee specialists is putting yourself at a purposeful disadvantage. This is the same thing I say to anyone playing orks and insisting that they must use only melee units and nothing else.

Marines work best as generalists, with the possible exception of something like World Eaters, which are as close to being able to do a pure melee setup as any MEQ army.

If I were playing Blood Angels, I would concentrate 30-40% of my points to long ranged turn 1 anti infantry firepower, and the rest to turn 2 melee. That's easy to do with the highly capable long range or infiltrating troops choices the blood angels have. If you're really only willing to look at units that do their damage in melee...well, BA knife scouts return their points value in melee vs GEQ turn 1, so I hope you like knife scouts.

Well said.

BA are Marines biased towards CC. They are not Grunts In Power Armor. "Red Tide" is not a viable strategy.

You play BA like UltraMarines, except you expect to punch a few more faces, and take a few more jetpacks. You are not Black Tide (not that that does well). You are not Khorne Zerkers. You are Marines who're a little better when it comes to chopping, but still big on shooting.

You need to press in on T1/T2, not break them. If breaking them T1/T2 were viable, BA would be OP.

You keep complaining about the screens falling back then shooting your CC. What's the rest of your list doing while your CC charged? The rest of your list should be softening them up. And their rebuttle has to pick between your CC units (after falling back), or the rest of your list. If their dakka focueses on their skirmishers, your dakka is left unmolested to take the upper hand over theirs. If they focus on their dakka on your backfield, your skirmishers close in. It's supposed to be a tradeoff; neither option should be autowin for either side.

Slipspace wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They still shut down power armor assault just fine. I understand that vanilla marines are not caring.

I never mentioned termagants. Although 100 would probably do the trick vs most BA lists.

"but you can mow them down in droves with very little shooting."

It still requires a ton of shots to deal with guardsmen. Maybe vanilla lists bring them, but power armor lists that pay for assault elements generally do not.

What does your normal list look like? People have repeatedly pointed out the many ways SM (even BA) have to deal with horde infantry so at this point it just looks like a stubborn refusal to accept advice on your part. Many of those ways involve Troops, which don't vary that much between different Chapters. My last game was against an army with just over 100 gaunts and I did fine - smashed a bunch of them with the DC in T1, shot a whole bunch more to death with Troops and charged the remnants. I think the problem may be you're fixating on trying to kill 100+ models in a turn, which isn't going to happen in most games.

I don't have a normal list atm. I'm still phasing in a bunch of primaris stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:
Maybe Martel is playing BA with like nothing but melee troops? So he doesn't have the shooting to cut down chaff, he has to get them in melee which having a ton of dudes prevents from getting to the choice bits/objective/what have you.

That's the only way I can think he's having so many issues with hordes. It would explain why he prefers ITC because with the anti-horde secondary he's at least getting VP for killing the screening chaff while with the CA missions he doesn't get squat for killing 100 guys if they prevent him from getting to an objective or whatnot.

I've actually fired the DC permanently because of screens and their fragility. I don't have any autobolter marines put together yet, though.