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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
that's a fair enough response, though I still disagree with you.

And if you havent even landed on a good way to play the army yet I don't think you should be saying where they fit balance wise. Also if you refuse to soup in even a single small detachment for one unit, you aren't playing the army to its fullest. Cause this logic Knights are a bottom tier faction since pure solo knights have no pull.

I'm not refusing to soup; I just don't have those models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I just don't have a set list atm. I realize I probably need autobolters for starters. I also refuse to use leviathan dreads. I've also fired jump pack DC because of the issues I'm having. Sounds like Red Ultramarines are the future.

I don't think BA are unplayable, I just don't think they are that much better off than before match-up wise. They beat what they could beat before PA and lose to what they lost to before PA. Extra attacks for BA looks great on paper until you put it into practice.

I see the winner souped in TFCs. That fixes the issue I'm having, I suppose. Of course, I don't own TFCs because BA have never been able to use them. The rest of the list I would never pick to win anything, to be honest. Especially so many fragile DC.

Why won't you use leviathans? Don't like the model? Allergic to resin?

I dislike the FW dreads in general. I don't think they should be in the game, as they are so different from the regular dreads.

Martel732 wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
that's a fair enough response, though I still disagree with you.

And if you havent even landed on a good way to play the army yet I don't think you should be saying where they fit balance wise. Also if you refuse to soup in even a single small detachment for one unit, you aren't playing the army to its fullest. Cause this logic Knights are a bottom tier faction since pure solo knights have no pull.

I'm not refusing to soup; I just don't have those models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I just don't have a set list atm. I realize I probably need autobolters for starters. I also refuse to use leviathan dreads. I've also fired jump pack DC because of the issues I'm having. Sounds like Red Ultramarines are the future.

I don't think BA are unplayable, I just don't think they are that much better off than before match-up wise. They beat what they could beat before PA and lose to what they lost to before PA. Extra attacks for BA looks great on paper until you put it into practice.

I see the winner souped in TFCs. That fixes the issue I'm having, I suppose. Of course, I don't own TFCs because BA have never been able to use them. The rest of the list I would never pick to win anything, to be honest. Especially so many fragile DC.

Why won't you use leviathans? Don't like the model? Allergic to resin?

I dislike the FW dreads in general. I don't think they should be in the game, as they are so different from the regular dreads.

That's understandable. Don't run models you don't like just because they're more "competitive ". That's why I'll never trade in my fellblade for a godawful lord of skulls.

I respect that decision too, but at the same time, I wouldn't claim that my results are representative of the strength of my faction, but the guy out there winning tournaments with them is not.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I respect that decision too, but at the same time, I wouldn't claim that my results are representative of the strength of my faction, but the guy out there winning tournaments with them is not.

That's fair, but if the viability of a faction comes down to the use of one or two underpriced units, particularly FW ones, then they're one knee-jerk points adjustment away from being non-viable. But since we're here until December, who knows what else will change by then.

I've considered the leviathan an unfair "crutch" model the entire edition. Now it has access to half damage strat? It breaks what little immersion there is when a supposedly rare unit is in every damn list.

 catbarf wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I respect that decision too, but at the same time, I wouldn't claim that my results are representative of the strength of my faction, but the guy out there winning tournaments with them is not.

That's fair, but if the viability of a faction comes down to the use of one or two underpriced units, particularly FW ones, then they're one knee-jerk points adjustment away from being non-viable. But since we're here until December, who knows what else will change by then.

TBF, gw has a lot of these types of unit in their "core" lineup allready

Not Online!!! wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I respect that decision too, but at the same time, I wouldn't claim that my results are representative of the strength of my faction, but the guy out there winning tournaments with them is not.

That's fair, but if the viability of a faction comes down to the use of one or two underpriced units, particularly FW ones, then they're one knee-jerk points adjustment away from being non-viable. But since we're here until December, who knows what else will change by then.

TBF, gw has a lot of these types of unit in their "core" lineup allready

Eldar flyers, riptides/drones, obliterators, yeah lots of "must takes " along with stuff that no one uses. Internal balance in most codexes is pretty bad.

The old fw=broken line is pretty much proven wrong at this point as well especially after ca2019 pretty much pretended fw didn't exist. Unless of course it was something "primaris".

Martel732 wrote:
I've considered the leviathan an unfair "crutch" model the entire edition. Now it has access to half damage strat? It breaks what little immersion there is when a supposedly rare unit is in every damn list.

Ah, I see. You're not using the Leviathan so that you A) can claim some sort of moral high ground, B) have a convenient excuse for when you lose to a list containing one.

Neither, actually. I'm just sick of seeing them. Maybe you're projecting a bit.

Martel732 wrote:
Neither, actually. I'm just sick of seeing them.

Sure lad.



Mister i got no list to share but can't deal with 100 IG models .

I can share a list, but what would be the point, as I haven't settled on one yet? I can post some list I might never use again anyway? So you want a random list?

Some of my lists have scouts. Most don't at this point. Judging by this one tourney list, that's a mistake, but I don't understand why. I don't usually use two smash capts. I'm guessing they are used sequentially, since they can't be used simultaneously, which is why I don't use more than one. A few lists have zero smash capts, because I'm sick of that model, too.

Either you wring all of the efficiencies out of your list and win or you play casual and ask your opponents to tone down their lists. There's a difference between blood angels are trash vs the blood angel units I want to play with are trash.

I just can't beat this guy no mater what I try, but I only fight with one hand tied behind my back and on one leg because reasons...

Almost as bad as Xeno yelling in the DA topic while knowing nothing about DA.

Please move the BA theory crafting to the BA thread/topic please.

Anyone got any stats on the LVO lists?

Yeah, running fluffy hodgepodge casual lists is perfectly fine, I do that all the time. I just don't cry about it on internet if I lose because of that.

Then you're not martel or Xenomancers, because that seems to be a running theme in all their posts

Martel732 wrote:
Judging by this one tourney list, that's a mistake, but I don't understand why.

It will help if you can either see the game, or get a recap of how it works. If people are finding success, it's always good to take some notes, even if ultimately you plan do things your own way.

Martel732 wrote:
Neither, actually. I'm just sick of seeing them. Maybe you're projecting a bit.

Ahh, now you're just sick of seeing them....

Projecting? Nope. Not at all.
I love how the model looks & I love its stats (though those stats are a bonus & I'd run one regardless), & I don't care who else uses it or why. So I'll happily club my opponent with one & admit to it.

I specifically dont like the bs 2+ dreads, as they are such outliers in the marine line. At a minimum, the relic rule needs to be very harsh.

Martel732 wrote:
I specifically dont like the bs 2+ dreads, as they are such outliers in the marine line. At a minimum, the relic rule needs to be very harsh.

I think all dreads should have WS and BS of 2+ (with appropriate point cost of course.) Dreads are entombed heroes, they should have skills to match. It would also nicely set them apart from more mundane vehicles. There really doesn't need to be separate 'venerable' variant, they can just all be 'venerable.'

That would fix it, too.

Martel732 wrote:
That would fix it, too.

The hellforged/relic dreadnoughts are ancient and rare and are therefore only the most skilled warriors are interred in them. So they should definitely have better stats. They also degrade so they don't always have those stats.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The hellforged/relic dreadnoughts are ancient and rare and are therefore only the most skilled warriors are interred in them. So they should definitely have better stats. They also degrade so they don't always have those stats.

All dreadnought are ancient and rare! Bjorn the Fellhanded was pals with Leman Russ and he has the standard dread chassis. FW can make new and different things, but this chase to make these even specialer and rarerer dreadnoughts is stupid and counterproductive. Like they even have a relic version of Contemptor! (Which is crazy levels more powerful than the normal one.) They first introduced Contemptors as ancient and special relic dreadnoughts, and then made even more relicer super version of it. Please, make it stop! All the models can stay, but the rules need to be streamlined and consolidated.

 Crimson wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The hellforged/relic dreadnoughts are ancient and rare and are therefore only the most skilled warriors are interred in them. So they should definitely have better stats. They also degrade so they don't always have those stats.

All dreadnought are ancient and rare! Bjorn the Fellhanded was pals with Leman Russ and he has the standard dread chassis. FW can make new and different things, but this chase to make these even specialer and rarerer dreadnoughts is stupid and counterproductive. Like they even have a relic version of Contemptor! (Which is crazy levels more powerful than the normal one.) They first introduced Contemptors as ancient and special relic dreadnoughts, and then made even more relicer super version of it. Please, make it stop! All the models can stay, but the rules need to be streamlined and consolidated.

That's fair as long as the points for the affected units are adjusted as you previously stated. I have no problem with that.

I disagree that Dreads should all be BS2+. Relic ones, maybe, and all should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting sure. But being skilled when you're a fully functional Marine is one thing, but once you've suffered whatever grievous wound requiring you to be entombed in a Dread, there should be some kind of "dulling of sense" or lack of flexibility/speed causing those skills to not be so great.

A WS/BS2+ character being literally crippled should not get to keep that WS/BS2+. Being WS/BS3+ would still be impressive considering the circumstances.
But again, I also believe Dreads of all variants should ignore hit penalties for moving, which would be almost a net result for Ven-Dreads on the move. (and Dread should be on the move, not just static weapon platforms)

-

 Galef wrote:
I disagree that Dreads should all be BS2+. Relic ones, maybe, and all should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting sure. But being skilled when you're a fully functional Marine is one thing, but once you've suffered whatever grievous wound requiring you to be entombed in a Dread, there should be some kind of "dulling of sense" or lack of flexibility/speed causing those skills to not be so great.

A WS/BS2+ character being literally crippled should not get to keep that WS/BS2+. Being WS/BS3+ would still be impressive considering the circumstances.
But again, I also believe Dreads of all variants should ignore hit penalties for moving, which would be almost a net result for Ven-Dreads on the move. (and Dread should be on the move, not just static weapon platforms)

-

Do you include hellforged with relics? Otherwise you'd be giving more of a nerf to heretics.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Do you include hellforged with relics? Otherwise you'd be giving more of a nerf to heretics.

Yes, whenever I make blanket statements about Marines, you can safely assume that I am also referring to their Chaos equivalents.

-

bananathug wrote:
Either you wring all of the efficiencies out of your list and win or you play casual and ask your opponents to tone down their lists. There's a difference between blood angels are trash vs the blood angel units I want to play with are trash.

I just can't beat this guy no mater what I try, but I only fight with one hand tied behind my back and on one leg because reasons...

Almost as bad as Xeno yelling in the DA topic while knowing nothing about DA.

Please move the BA theory crafting to the BA thread/topic please.

Anyone got any stats on the LVO lists?

That is a dumb statement. DA are just marines with slightly different rules. I know marines really well. Holy crap I misread the leak and thought the FNP was vs all damage not mortals. Guess that means I know nothing about DA.

You actually know marines really poorly, like, impressively so, and DA are not just Marines with slightly different rules.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
You actually know marines really poorly, like, impressively so, and DA are not just Marines with slightly different rules.

It's funny how you can make such a dumb statement and not even realize it is dumb. DA are just marines with slightly different rules. Please feel free to elaborate on how DA aren't marines with slightly different rules. I am dying to find out for myself. Also my knowledge of the marine factions I play is pretty high. You just have a grudge against me because I make strong arguments and you have no idea how to argue against them.

 Galef wrote:
I disagree that Dreads should all be BS2+. Relic ones, maybe, and all should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting sure. But being skilled when you're a fully functional Marine is one thing, but once you've suffered whatever grievous wound requiring you to be entombed in a Dread, there should be some kind of "dulling of sense" or lack of flexibility/speed causing those skills to not be so great.

A WS/BS2+ character being literally crippled should not get to keep that WS/BS2+. Being WS/BS3+ would still be impressive considering the circumstances.
But again, I also believe Dreads of all variants should ignore hit penalties for moving, which would be almost a net result for Ven-Dreads on the move. (and Dread should be on the move, not just static weapon platforms)-

I think they ought to all be 2+ BS WS, but then again I started in 2nd edition when they had better than veteran stats (BS6) plus a Targeter for a base of 0+ to-hit, plus superior versions of the standard weapons, with improved reliability/versatility. Reason being? Ancient tech, + heroes all had BS/WS stats between 5-7. It also highlighted the fact that Dreads were special and piloted by heroes, rather than the BS 4 of regular SM vehicle crewmen.

Like Martel I'm not fond of the Leviathan, either. It feels a little un-marine, being a big, lumbering thing that looks like it requires separate logistics than everything else. Great model though, I've often thought about adding one to my traitors.

Its a big fw shiny thats the bestest because reasons. And it has snowflake weapons not found anywhere else