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2020/01/16 23:13:12
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I think they ought to all be 2+ BSWS, but then again I started in 2nd edition when they had better than veteran stats (BS6) plus a Targeter for a base of 0+ to-hit, plus superior versions of the standard weapons, with improved reliability/versatility. Reason being? Ancient tech, + heroes all had BS/WS stats between 5-7. It also highlighted the fact that Dreads were special and piloted by heroes, rather than the BS 4 of regular SM vehicle crewmen.
Yep. I started in the 2nd edition too. I was sad how mediocre dreads became in the third edition. I'd like to see them become something more than small and weak tanks on legs again.
Xenomancers wrote:You just have a grudge against me because I make strong arguments and you have no idea how to argue against them.
"Strong" arguments like...
Xenomancers wrote:I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.
2020/01/17 00:55:50
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Or you play 1 format 100's of times a year and only care about Min/Max that 1 format and play not the army you like but the army that you think is best in the format talking with other people about that format and if you can get an extra 1% chance to win if you modify X, Y, or Z, then practice it and realize it was a good choice but found out that if you mod it a bit more to get 2%, now you feel good and doing something others are not used to so they make 1 mistake and they lose hold more, and kill more making you the winner.
But yeah, its loaded dice and yes that is a valid argument and any other argument are wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 02:45:04
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/17 08:42:04
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
bananathug wrote: Either you wring all of the efficiencies out of your list and win or you play casual and ask your opponents to tone down their lists. There's a difference between blood angels are trash vs the blood angel units I want to play with are trash.
I just can't beat this guy no mater what I try, but I only fight with one hand tied behind my back and on one leg because reasons...
Almost as bad as Xeno yelling in the DA topic while knowing nothing about DA.
Please move the BA theory crafting to the BA thread/topic please.
Anyone got any stats on the LVO lists?
That is a dumb statement. DA are just marines with slightly different rules. I know marines really well. Holy crap I misread the leak and thought the FNP was vs all damage not mortals. Guess that means I know nothing about DA.
The point is you're making statements without even understanding what you're commenting on. The FNP mistake, for example, is kind of a big deal since it massively changes the effectiveness of the rule if you misread it and think it applies to all wounds. Then you make your blanket statement about the power level of the army without having access to all the new rules or even the points cost of the model you got the rules wrong for. The comment about DA being SM with slightly different rules is technically correct but you're missing the wood for the trees. If they're slightly different SM they need to be strictly better than all other SM before we see them dominate. If, say, IH or IF are 5% better, it doesn't matter how good DA are, the competitive players are going to gravitate towards the slightly better SM and you likely end up with DA in the same position UM are now - powerful but with reduced win rates due to there being a strictly better sub-faction within that faction.
In general, it also helps to not make sweeping statements about the power level of an army literally a few hours after a small number of their rules are first previewed. Kind of hard to take that argument seriously.
2020/01/17 10:25:25
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
No, it's not a problem of being OP resin, it's just that you have a model (dreadnaught) that is supposed to be rare because it entombs the heroes of that chapter, so it is by definition at least rarer than the heroes of that faction. Then you get the "rarer" version of it, the venerable ones. At this point, you understand that you can count the number of venerable dreads available to a chapter one one hand, with spare fingers. The fact that we have a venerable dread model is already a stretch, we should have named dreads.
Then comes FW, and it makes a dread that is even more rare! And then one which is even more even more rare!
It sounds really stupid. It's like they made a generic primarch model, saying that it is a rarer form of primarch...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 12:34:55
2020/01/17 13:01:04
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
No, it's not a problem of being OP resin, it's just that you have a model (dreadnaught) that is supposed to be rare because it entombs the heroes of that chapter, so it is by definition at least rarer than the heroes of that faction. Then you get the "rarer" version of it, the venerable ones. At this point, you understand that you can count the number of venerable dreads available to a chapter one one hand, with spare fingers. The fact that we have a venerable dread model is already a stretch, we should have named dreads.
Then comes FW, and it makes a dread that is even more rare! And then one which is even more even more rare!
It sounds really stupid. It's like they made a generic primarch model, saying that it is a rarer form of primarch...
Only the contemptor is older than ferrum infernus dreads. The ferum infurnus predates leviathans and daredeos. The fw dreadnoughts are ancient and rare but FETHING EVERYTHING in 40k is. Custodes are probably rarer than any pattern of dreadnought. Nobody complains about them because of that. (Not to mention the aforementioned primarchs that seem to show up on every fething war zone in the galaxy).
2020/01/17 15:44:42
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Xenomancers wrote:You just have a grudge against me because I make strong arguments and you have no idea how to argue against them.
"Strong" arguments like...
Xenomancers wrote:I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.
Man. 46 straight games. I’m the best player ever. I must have won so many events this year! Ohhhh wait I didn’t win a single one according to itc BCP input, though I’m pretty sure I won a 3 game RTT in august, oh well.
As far as dice go. I have a chessex or similar cube bought from a local game store. Some games workshop dice both the classic red ones from old boxsets and some of the ones they give out for being on their stream. And some vanity dice that I’ve gathered from other players over the years in trades or gifts after games. People are always welcome to roll my dice, in fact I often encourage it for saves as it speeds the game along.
I also never select the dice myself for important rolls like seize the initiative or game ends or what not letting my opponents pick from my pile for me.
But please again jump to conclusions on my 46 game winning streak. And if you believe that, I’ve got a Few boxes of mountain air I can sell to you at a good price.
2020/01/17 15:46:17
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Thats why you take it in a Sumpreme command detachment - has 1 LOW slot. Then it gains clan culture and it hits on 4's with free bootas with 5's generating extra hits (more dakka). Which is statistically the same as hitting on 3's with the benefit that your good rolls can far exceed the total max number of shots hits. Again I will reiterate it is not amazing for the cost. It is not however useless. Stompa was also dropped in points. It has castellan level firepower with 12 additional wounds and repair up to 3 a turn and the ability to carry 20 dudes (you are probably paying about 100 points for that transport capacity you don't want).
The game I referenced was basically automatic. kills. Def cannon = auto dead repuslor executioner - 330 points - Super rocket easily killed a redemptor with 4 shots turning into 6 hits and 5 wounds....1 made 6 + save and 4d6 damage to do 13 wounds? easy. 160 Good roll on super gatler against and intercessor squad I dont remember precisely the wounds but it killed 8 primaris marines....didn't even use it's melee ability and it killed 650 points already...it charged into a unit of agressors and killed 3 of them. Theres 111 more points. Oh and he had about 26 wounds on him at the time not giving a FCK about it ether. Cause Ork BS doesn't degrade.
It's also asanine to expect units to kill their points value in 1 turn. If that was the case for even 5% of the units in the game the game would be over on turn 1 every game. Reiterating again that I don't think the stompa is amazing but if you build around it can remove 3 targets a turn pretty consistently. Much like a Castellan can. It just pays more for tarnport capacity and has a lot more wounds and self repair and is entirely reliant on free bootas + more dakka...which it turns out it actually can use.
So give it a 3 HQ tax which the cheapest would be 3 Weirdboyz so you end up paying 1056pts at the cheapest to give a Stompa exploding 5s. conversely, this forces you to make your last 944pts a Free Boota detachment otherwise you will simply never proc and get that +1 to hit. So you kulture lock your entire army to get +1 to hit for a Stompa which as pointed out, degrades quickly, and in a game where killing a Knight (Same toughness, gets a 5+ invuln save and has just about 2/3rds as many wounds)is done easily...well, that Stompa won't be lasting long.
I do love your point about the Stompa killing its points back, that is hilarious. Instead of using averages you use the one anecdotal piece of evidence you have which makes your point. Let us say best case scenario, you have popped your exploding 5s strat and you have managed to kill an enemy unit and therefore have 4+ to hit. A Deff Kannon AVERAGES: 10.5 shots which hitting on 4s = 5.25 hits, exploding results in about 3 more shots for 1.5 more which = 6.75 hits, its wounding on 3s so on average thats 4.5 wounds, no saves allowed unless it gets a FNP/INvuln from whatever army its playing as....like the Ironhands favorite right now which give it a 6+ FNP and a -1 to damage. So those 4.5 wounds become 11.25 damage after damage reduction and then become about 9 after FNP is used. So on average it will mess up one of those vehicles but it won't kill it, and in fact, it has 7 wounds left which means you NEED to overkill it because on the next turn the Iron Hands will repair a lot of that damage. Your example of a Supa Rokkit is also just as 1 sided. On average the Supa Rokkit gets 3.5 shots, even hitting on 4s and using the exploding 5s strat this becomes 1.75 hits with 1 exploding result which is .5 more hits. So 2.25, this wounds on 3s so 1.5ish wounds which become 3.75 damage on average against a 6+ save and a 6+ FNP that is 2 to 3 damage. The Supa Gatler is 3D6 shots which averages 10.5, lets assume it shoots twice with the psycho rule so 21 shots. hitting on 4s = 10.5hits, you will get 7 exploding 5s and 6s which average 3.5 more hits so 14 total hits, wounding on 3s = 9.3ish wounds so lets round up and say 10. its -2 ap so those intercessors get a 5+ save so 6ish (rounding up again)7 wounds which kills 3.5 marines, that is a far cry from 8 that you claim. you have to do more then twice the average to get the numbers you keep saying are happening on top of managing to proc a 4+ klan bonus which is actually hard to do unless your opponent is a muppet and lets you kill an easy target like a 5 man scout squad in the open without cloaks LOL! And then he managed a charge! WOOOO!!!!!!, assuming the Stompa went first, it moves 12, it doesn't advance because its guns would be functionally useless, turn 2 it can move 9 so 21 inches. Did the SM player deploy on the damn line, did he choose not to move back on his turn because there was a giant robot walking at him that is ok in CC and more importantly, if it violently explode when it dies it can wipe out characters and squads? The problem I have with most of your posts about orks is you use examples like this, where you compare Ork units and gear to SM items but you only ever use the best possible case scenario for the orkz. Yeah, a Stompa is AMAZING! if it shoots 3d6 shots and always gets 15-18 shots and somehow always has a 4+ to hit and somehow ends up with more hits then shots because of Dakkax3. Yeah, the Stompa is the best unit in the game if that is what you use as a metric.
Your final incorrect point. The Stompa CAN NOT remove 3 units a turn consistently. on average you will be lucky to get 2 and even that is a stretch. The Supa Gatler averages less than 7 dead Tactical Marines a turn, the Supa Rokkit doesn't kill a Dreadnought a turn, it averages (even without Iron Hands shenanigans) about 4.4 damage after a 6+ save. And those numbers factor in getting that 4+ to hit every single turn which speaking from experience, you wont.
No, it's not a problem of being OP resin, it's just that you have a model (dreadnaught) that is supposed to be rare because it entombs the heroes of that chapter, so it is by definition at least rarer than the heroes of that faction. Then you get the "rarer" version of it, the venerable ones. At this point, you understand that you can count the number of venerable dreads available to a chapter one one hand, with spare fingers. The fact that we have a venerable dread model is already a stretch, we should have named dreads.
Then comes FW, and it makes a dread that is even more rare! And then one which is even more even more rare!
It sounds really stupid. It's like they made a generic primarch model, saying that it is a rarer form of primarch...
Only the contemptor is older than ferrum infernus dreads. The ferum infurnus predates leviathans and daredeos. The fw dreadnoughts are ancient and rare but FETHING EVERYTHING in 40k is. Custodes are probably rarer than any pattern of dreadnought. Nobody complains about them because of that. (Not to mention the aforementioned primarchs that seem to show up on every fething war zone in the galaxy).
Guardsmen aren't. Nor are Orks or Nids. Marines are special snowflakes, but then GW makes things like GK and rare dreads that are even MOAR snowflakier. It's dumb.
Martel732 wrote: Its a big fw shiny thats the bestest because reasons. And it has snowflake weapons not found anywhere else
Really? We're back to the "evil magic fw resin is op and shouldn't be in the game " argument?
Guess my fellblade really is better than two baneblades. After all resin=magic.
I didn't mention resin. It's just a huge deviation from regular dreads and has dumb fluff. I'm fine with resin autocannon arms or whatever. But entirely NEW AND ANCIENT AND RARE dreads. Techmarines probably couldn't keep them running practically speaking, but then nothing the Imperium has should be running without scientific principles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 16:03:33
2020/01/17 16:01:32
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
No, it's not a problem of being OP resin, it's just that you have a model (dreadnaught) that is supposed to be rare because it entombs the heroes of that chapter, so it is by definition at least rarer than the heroes of that faction. Then you get the "rarer" version of it, the venerable ones. At this point, you understand that you can count the number of venerable dreads available to a chapter one one hand, with spare fingers. The fact that we have a venerable dread model is already a stretch, we should have named dreads.
Then comes FW, and it makes a dread that is even more rare! And then one which is even more even more rare!
It sounds really stupid. It's like they made a generic primarch model, saying that it is a rarer form of primarch...
Only the contemptor is older than ferrum infernus dreads. The ferum infurnus predates leviathans and daredeos. The fw dreadnoughts are ancient and rare but FETHING EVERYTHING in 40k is. Custodes are probably rarer than any pattern of dreadnought. Nobody complains about them because of that. (Not to mention the aforementioned primarchs that seem to show up on every fething war zone in the galaxy).
Guardsmen aren't. Nor are Orks or Nids. Marines are special snowflakes, but then GW makes things like GK and rare dreads that are even MOAR snowflakier. It's dumb.
So basically you are jealous of the snowflake status?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/17 16:03:58
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
In general, it also helps to not make sweeping statements about the power level of an army literally a few hours after a small number of their rules are first previewed. Kind of hard to take that argument seriously.
Like the new Marine codex being DOA because Gman and Repulsor nerfs. No chance Marines would ever win again.
2020/01/17 16:09:53
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Xenomancers wrote:You just have a grudge against me because I make strong arguments and you have no idea how to argue against them.
"Strong" arguments like...
Xenomancers wrote:I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.
Man. 46 straight games. I’m the best player ever. I must have won so many events this year! Ohhhh wait I didn’t win a single one according to itc BCP input, though I’m pretty sure I won a 3 game RTT in august, oh well.
As far as dice go. I have a chessex or similar cube bought from a local game store. Some games workshop dice both the classic red ones from old boxsets and some of the ones they give out for being on their stream. And some vanity dice that I’ve gathered from other players over the years in trades or gifts after games. People are always welcome to roll my dice, in fact I often encourage it for saves as it speeds the game along.
I also never select the dice myself for important rolls like seize the initiative or game ends or what not letting my opponents pick from my pile for me.
But please again jump to conclusions on my 46 game winning streak. And if you believe that, I’ve got a Few boxes of mountain air I can sell to you at a good price.
*drops mic*
Ho. Lee. gak.
I was hoping you’d weigh in. Didn’t expect it to be that hot.
And nice, now we have indisputable proof that Xenomancers doesn’t understand a lick of what he’s talking about, can we lock this thread and leave this godawful thread topic in the dirt?
2020/01/17 16:13:22
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
And nice, now we have indisputable proof that Xenomancers doesn’t understand a lick of what he’s talking about, can we lock this thread and leave this godawful thread topic in the dirt?
No, because Xenomancer's last tangent isn't the actual topic of the thread. Discussion on competetive data shouldn't have to suffer because Xenomancer gets stuck in the same loop every time something new happens.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/01/17 16:16:58
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
This entire topic is a nonsense Xenomancers rant from the start. There’s nothing competitive about this thread. But whatever, if you’re enjoying yourself I’ll leave you all to it.
2020/01/17 16:20:27
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Xenomancers wrote:You just have a grudge against me because I make strong arguments and you have no idea how to argue against them.
"Strong" arguments like...
Xenomancers wrote:I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.
Man. 46 straight games. I’m the best player ever. I must have won so many events this year! Ohhhh wait I didn’t win a single one according to itc BCP input, though I’m pretty sure I won a 3 game RTT in august, oh well.
As far as dice go. I have a chessex or similar cube bought from a local game store. Some games workshop dice both the classic red ones from old boxsets and some of the ones they give out for being on their stream. And some vanity dice that I’ve gathered from other players over the years in trades or gifts after games. People are always welcome to roll my dice, in fact I often encourage it for saves as it speeds the game along.
I also never select the dice myself for important rolls like seize the initiative or game ends or what not letting my opponents pick from my pile for me.
But please again jump to conclusions on my 46 game winning streak. And if you believe that, I’ve got a Few boxes of mountain air I can sell to you at a good price.
I always roll my saves with the same dice with which my opponent rolled the wounds evens out the odds mostly (not perfectly since AP is a thing.
2020/01/17 16:27:55
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
bananathug wrote: Either you wring all of the efficiencies out of your list and win or you play casual and ask your opponents to tone down their lists. There's a difference between blood angels are trash vs the blood angel units I want to play with are trash.
I just can't beat this guy no mater what I try, but I only fight with one hand tied behind my back and on one leg because reasons...
Almost as bad as Xeno yelling in the DA topic while knowing nothing about DA.
Please move the BA theory crafting to the BA thread/topic please.
Anyone got any stats on the LVO lists?
That is a dumb statement. DA are just marines with slightly different rules. I know marines really well. Holy crap I misread the leak and thought the FNP was vs all damage not mortals. Guess that means I know nothing about DA.
The point is you're making statements without even understanding what you're commenting on. The FNP mistake, for example, is kind of a big deal since it massively changes the effectiveness of the rule if you misread it and think it applies to all wounds. Then you make your blanket statement about the power level of the army without having access to all the new rules or even the points cost of the model you got the rules wrong for. The comment about DA being SM with slightly different rules is technically correct but you're missing the wood for the trees. If they're slightly different SM they need to be strictly better than all other SM before we see them dominate. If, say, IH or IF are 5% better, it doesn't matter how good DA are, the competitive players are going to gravitate towards the slightly better SM and you likely end up with DA in the same position UM are now - powerful but with reduced win rates due to there being a strictly better sub-faction within that faction.
In general, it also helps to not make sweeping statements about the power level of an army literally a few hours after a small number of their rules are first previewed. Kind of hard to take that argument seriously.
Pfff. Garbage. My eyes played a trick on me reading a leak article literally a few hours after it came out which I corrected immediately when it was pointed out. The wording of that rule is really wordy for no reason which is why I made the mistake. Whatever though - if you want to make such a bad argument that I made a mistake and misread a rule so it invalidates my opinions you would be wrong. That is what you call a logical fallacy. Plus it's like most of you have never heard of a generalization "sweeping statements". When you know someone is making a generalization and treat it as literal is called arguing in bad faith.
Anyways just ignore this fact
DA have a dev doctrine bonus. Which with a chaplain litany essentially gives all units within 6" the Ironhands superdoctrine combined with the Ultramarines superdoctrine with the added benefit of having a +6 inch bonus from expert marksmen instead of 3" for rapid and heavy weapons. The only thing they are missing is master of artisans on every unit and character dreads. For that they get a 4++ invo bubble on all their infantry with Azreal - so they will be more durable and shoot farther - it's a fair trade off there. It's really not hard to compare things when they are the same. DA are going to perform at the same level of Ironhands because they have basically the same rules with even better tricks. Might be slightly less reliable and harder to play but...since "skill" is such a huge factor in the game to you people that should be easy for these "super pro 40k players".
And nice, now we have indisputable proof that Xenomancers doesn’t understand a lick of what he’s talking about, can we lock this thread and leave this godawful thread topic in the dirt?
No, because Xenomancer's last tangent isn't the actual topic of the thread. Discussion on competetive data shouldn't have to suffer because Xenomancer gets stuck in the same loop every time something new happens.
Nah...there were literally people in this thread attacking the data saying it is meaningless because it's always the same players winning events. I offered a pretty reasonable solution to that and people attack the idea like it's insane...people cheating at 40k is just wild with thousands of dollars on the line. The data isn't perfect but it is what we got.
In general, it also helps to not make sweeping statements about the power level of an army literally a few hours after a small number of their rules are first previewed. Kind of hard to take that argument seriously.
Like the new Marine codex being DOA because Gman and Repulsor nerfs. No chance Marines would ever win again.
LOL...you know that was before any of the supplement releases right? I believe I was specifically referring to Ultramarines to but regardless. No chance for marines to win again is not something I ever said. I said it was a nerf and it was before the supplements came out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 16:40:21
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/17 16:40:43
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
I've always used the "closed coffin" dreadnought just because I feel like the head poking out makes the proportions of the thing look really odd. The leviathan feels big enough where it feels right to me.
2020/01/17 16:41:53
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Pfff. Garbage. My eyes played a trick on me reading a leak article literally a few hours after it came out which I corrected immediately when it was pointed out.
Xeno - I think, sometimes, you have good thoughts. Others are over the top. Lately though it seems like you will die on the hill you stand on. I personally think it's a good thing to back down from a position and admit fault without lashing out simultaneously. When you start making baseless claims about cheating and other things and doubling down you just do yourself a disservice.
It's ok that emotions get the better of us from time to time, but you'll make better and more convincing arguments when you take a moment to process the information instead of rushing to judgement.
2020/01/17 16:44:38
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Xenomancers wrote:You just have a grudge against me because I make strong arguments and you have no idea how to argue against them.
"Strong" arguments like...
Xenomancers wrote:I am pretty sure a lot of those really top players are using loaded dice...because they don't control for it. Last year I think Nayden won 46 consecutive games. The only way to do that in a dice game is to cheat.
Man. 46 straight games. I’m the best player ever. I must have won so many events this year! Ohhhh wait I didn’t win a single one according to itc BCP input, though I’m pretty sure I won a 3 game RTT in august, oh well.
As far as dice go. I have a chessex or similar cube bought from a local game store. Some games workshop dice both the classic red ones from old boxsets and some of the ones they give out for being on their stream. And some vanity dice that I’ve gathered from other players over the years in trades or gifts after games. People are always welcome to roll my dice, in fact I often encourage it for saves as it speeds the game along.
I also never select the dice myself for important rolls like seize the initiative or game ends or what not letting my opponents pick from my pile for me.
But please again jump to conclusions on my 46 game winning streak. And if you believe that, I’ve got a Few boxes of mountain air I can sell to you at a good price.
I always roll my saves with the same dice with which my opponent rolled the wounds evens out the odds mostly (not perfectly since AP is a thing.
Players using the same dice is actually something I never thought of. That is a great idea. I lend people my dice all the time to fill out rolls - got no issue with rolling the same dice with someone. Anyone have issue with this?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 16:45:24
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/17 16:51:54
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Pfff. Garbage. My eyes played a trick on me reading a leak article literally a few hours after it came out which I corrected immediately when it was pointed out.
Xeno - I think, sometimes, you have good thoughts. Others are over the top. Lately though it seems like you will die on the hill you stand on. I personally think it's a good thing to back down from a position and admit fault without lashing out simultaneously. When you start making baseless claims about cheating and other things and doubling down you just do yourself a disservice.
It's ok that emotions get the better of us from time to time, but you'll make better and more convincing arguments when you take a moment to process the information instead of rushing to judgement.
I don't want to argue - I want to talk about solutions and improving the game and draw conclusions from the data we have seen. I've reiterated that point several times. I'd be happy to move on from the cheating topic as I have said I am not accusing anyone specifically of cheating intentionally (except maybe someone who won 46 consecutive games). I am just stating that without controls on dice you can expect a certain amount of that. Which I am absolutely right about BTW. It is pure ignorance to deny that. I am more than happy to move on from that though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Only if they have clean hands.....#basement brigade
Just throw some hand sanitizer in your game bag.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/17 16:56:09
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/17 17:01:43
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
Xenomancers wrote: I don't want to argue - I want to talk about solutions and improving the game and draw conclusions from the data we have seen. I've reiterated that point several times. I'd be happy to move on from the cheating topic as I have said I am not accusing anyone specifically of cheating intentionally (except maybe someone who won 46 consecutive games). I am just stating that without controls on dice you can expect a certain amount of that. Which I am absolutely right about BTW. It is pure ignorance to deny that. I am more than happy to move on from that though.
This demonstrates what I'm talking about. You're backing down without backing down. I looked at the data for the past year and it recorded him as having 32 games of which 5 were loses. So perhaps there is some other source providing for 46 straight wins? Surely he would have won many GTs with that sort of record?
Data is finicky. There is so much more to these figures than what is seen at first glance.
2020/01/17 17:03:02
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
No, it's not a problem of being OP resin, it's just that you have a model (dreadnaught) that is supposed to be rare because it entombs the heroes of that chapter, so it is by definition at least rarer than the heroes of that faction. Then you get the "rarer" version of it, the venerable ones. At this point, you understand that you can count the number of venerable dreads available to a chapter one one hand, with spare fingers. The fact that we have a venerable dread model is already a stretch, we should have named dreads.
Then comes FW, and it makes a dread that is even more rare! And then one which is even more even more rare!
It sounds really stupid. It's like they made a generic primarch model, saying that it is a rarer form of primarch...
Only the contemptor is older than ferrum infernus dreads. The ferum infurnus predates leviathans and daredeos. The fw dreadnoughts are ancient and rare but FETHING EVERYTHING in 40k is. Custodes are probably rarer than any pattern of dreadnought. Nobody complains about them because of that. (Not to mention the aforementioned primarchs that seem to show up on every fething war zone in the galaxy).
Guardsmen aren't. Nor are Orks or Nids. Marines are special snowflakes, but then GW makes things like GK and rare dreads that are even MOAR snowflakier. It's dumb.
Martel732 wrote: Its a big fw shiny thats the bestest because reasons. And it has snowflake weapons not found anywhere else
Really? We're back to the "evil magic fw resin is op and shouldn't be in the game " argument?
Guess my fellblade really is better than two baneblades. After all resin=magic.
I didn't mention resin. It's just a huge deviation from regular dreads and has dumb fluff. I'm fine with resin autocannon arms or whatever. But entirely NEW AND ANCIENT AND RARE dreads. Techmarines probably couldn't keep them running practically speaking, but then nothing the Imperium has should be running without scientific principles.
Dude, you're making me dizzy. A couple pages back you were complaining about those "not rare" guardsmen, orks, and nids now you're complaining about things you say are TOO RARE. It's beginning to seem you just want to complain about anything you have trouble beating.
There are ways to beat hordes and there are ways to beat "snowflake " fw units. Complaining won't beat either. If you don't like the model and don't want to use it that's fine but don't complain if someone else does unless you have a valid argument on whether it's properly balanced based on it's stats, rules, and points. Just calling something "dumb" isn't a valid argument.
2020/01/17 17:23:48
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
bananathug wrote: Either you wring all of the efficiencies out of your list and win or you play casual and ask your opponents to tone down their lists. There's a difference between blood angels are trash vs the blood angel units I want to play with are trash.
I just can't beat this guy no mater what I try, but I only fight with one hand tied behind my back and on one leg because reasons...
Almost as bad as Xeno yelling in the DA topic while knowing nothing about DA.
Please move the BA theory crafting to the BA thread/topic please.
Anyone got any stats on the LVO lists?
That is a dumb statement. DA are just marines with slightly different rules. I know marines really well. Holy crap I misread the leak and thought the FNP was vs all damage not mortals. Guess that means I know nothing about DA.
The point is you're making statements without even understanding what you're commenting on. The FNP mistake, for example, is kind of a big deal since it massively changes the effectiveness of the rule if you misread it and think it applies to all wounds. Then you make your blanket statement about the power level of the army without having access to all the new rules or even the points cost of the model you got the rules wrong for. The comment about DA being SM with slightly different rules is technically correct but you're missing the wood for the trees. If they're slightly different SM they need to be strictly better than all other SM before we see them dominate. If, say, IH or IF are 5% better, it doesn't matter how good DA are, the competitive players are going to gravitate towards the slightly better SM and you likely end up with DA in the same position UM are now - powerful but with reduced win rates due to there being a strictly better sub-faction within that faction.
In general, it also helps to not make sweeping statements about the power level of an army literally a few hours after a small number of their rules are first previewed. Kind of hard to take that argument seriously.
Pfff. Garbage. My eyes played a trick on me reading a leak article literally a few hours after it came out which I corrected immediately when it was pointed out. The wording of that rule is really wordy for no reason which is why I made the mistake. Whatever though - if you want to make such a bad argument that I made a mistake and misread a rule so it invalidates my opinions you would be wrong. That is what you call a logical fallacy. Plus it's like most of you have never heard of a generalization "sweeping statements". When you know someone is making a generalization and treat it as literal is called arguing in bad faith.
You accuse a guy of cheating with no proof at all, refuse to acknowledge it and you want to talk about arguing in bad faith? Sure, you do you. My point, which you apparently missed, is that the very fact you don't know the rules is because nobody's played with them yet. The mistake you made in misreading the rule is the kind of thing that gets corrected very quickly once a Codex is released as people start to play games with and against it. The point is not that specific example being wrong, it's that it highlights how little we in general, and you specifically, know and understand about the DA rules right now. If you're going to make generalisations but want to be taken seriously it also helps not to jump right to "these guys are going to be broken" straight away.
2020/01/17 17:34:55
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
No, it's not a problem of being OP resin, it's just that you have a model (dreadnaught) that is supposed to be rare because it entombs the heroes of that chapter, so it is by definition at least rarer than the heroes of that faction. Then you get the "rarer" version of it, the venerable ones. At this point, you understand that you can count the number of venerable dreads available to a chapter one one hand, with spare fingers. The fact that we have a venerable dread model is already a stretch, we should have named dreads.
Then comes FW, and it makes a dread that is even more rare! And then one which is even more even more rare!
It sounds really stupid. It's like they made a generic primarch model, saying that it is a rarer form of primarch...
Only the contemptor is older than ferrum infernus dreads. The ferum infurnus predates leviathans and daredeos. The fw dreadnoughts are ancient and rare but FETHING EVERYTHING in 40k is. Custodes are probably rarer than any pattern of dreadnought. Nobody complains about them because of that. (Not to mention the aforementioned primarchs that seem to show up on every fething war zone in the galaxy).
Guardsmen aren't. Nor are Orks or Nids. Marines are special snowflakes, but then GW makes things like GK and rare dreads that are even MOAR snowflakier. It's dumb.
Martel732 wrote: Its a big fw shiny thats the bestest because reasons. And it has snowflake weapons not found anywhere else
Really? We're back to the "evil magic fw resin is op and shouldn't be in the game " argument?
Guess my fellblade really is better than two baneblades. After all resin=magic.
I didn't mention resin. It's just a huge deviation from regular dreads and has dumb fluff. I'm fine with resin autocannon arms or whatever. But entirely NEW AND ANCIENT AND RARE dreads. Techmarines probably couldn't keep them running practically speaking, but then nothing the Imperium has should be running without scientific principles.
Dude, you're making me dizzy. A couple pages back you were complaining about those "not rare" guardsmen, orks, and nids now you're complaining about things you say are TOO RARE. It's beginning to seem you just want to complain about anything you have trouble beating.
There are ways to beat hordes and there are ways to beat "snowflake " fw units. Complaining won't beat either. If you don't like the model and don't want to use it that's fine but don't complain if someone else does unless you have a valid argument on whether it's properly balanced based on it's stats, rules, and points. Just calling something "dumb" isn't a valid argument.
There's something of a version of the "narcissist's prayer" I've heard from some folks I've played with over the years.
If I won, it's because I earned it.
If I lost, it's because my dice were bad.
If my dice weren't bad, it's because my opponent's stuff was OP.
If my opponent's stuff wasn't OP, it's because my stuff wasn't UP.
If my stuff wasn't UP, it's because the cheesy stuff is not fluffy and only I play the army the way it's *supposed* to be played.
I have these discussions all the time. A new player comes in, loses a few games, and asks the veterans "hey, how do I win more? It seems like my army is really weak compared to others"
And to use the latest example I experienced, I say something like
"Well, it looks like your army is very slow, you field expensive things right alongside cheap things so it's easy for an opponent to kill your expensive stuff right off the bat, anything you have that's mobile you deep strike and try to make charge rolls with no modifiers, and you don't have any shooting early on so when you do reach combat, all your opponent's cheap stuff is still in the way."
And they say
"This is the only real way to play orks, it's how orks are supposed to be! There's not supposed to be all these shooting units and psykers! And I don't want to use the evil sunz rules because I want my army to hit really hard so I want to use Goffs! The only HQs orks are supposed to have is warbosses! I don't want to deep strike my Nobz because they're supposed to be bodyguards for the warboss!"
A person who loses all the time and believes he's lost because of something that isn't his fault is happier than someone who's losing but making changes to try and get better.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/01/17 17:39:50
Subject: Pretty interesting data when you take a look at 40k stats.
There's something of a version of the "narcissist's prayer" I've heard from some folks I've played with over the years.
If I won, it's because I earned it.
If I lost, it's because my dice were bad.
If my dice weren't bad, it's because my opponent's stuff was OP.
If my opponent's stuff wasn't OP, it's because my stuff wasn't UP.
If my stuff wasn't UP, it's because the cheesy stuff is not fluffy and only I play the army the way it's *supposed* to be played.
I have these discussions all the time. A new player comes in, loses a few games, and asks the veterans "hey, how do I win more? It seems like my army is really weak compared to others"
And to use the latest example I experienced, I say something like
"Well, it looks like your army is very slow, you field expensive things right alongside cheap things so it's easy for an opponent to kill your expensive stuff right off the bat, anything you have that's mobile you deep strike and try to make charge rolls with no modifiers, and you don't have any shooting early on so when you do reach combat, all your opponent's cheap stuff is still in the way."
And they say
"This is the only real way to play orks, it's how orks are supposed to be! There's not supposed to be all these shooting units and psykers! And I don't want to use the evil sunz rules because I want my army to hit really hard so I want to use Goffs! The only HQs orks are supposed to have is warbosses! I don't want to deep strike my Nobz because they're supposed to be bodyguards for the warboss!"
A person who loses all the time and believes he's lost because of something that isn't his fault is happier than someone who's losing but making changes to try and get better.
Good stuff.
After every game I always ask my opponent "what did I do wrong"? If people can't avoid the blame game they'll never get better.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
