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I was wondering if it would be practical to get every faction out there something akin to the Space Marines combat doctrines (devastator, tactical, assault)? Thoughts?

All armies should have re-rolls and modifiers severely reigned in/removed and all combat doctrines removed.

And now I will hold my peace

All armies should have re-rolls and modifiers severely reigned in/removed and all combat doctrines removed.

Agreed. I'll add to that. Eliminate Character Auras and make Strategems one use per battle.

 Psionara wrote:
I was wondering if it would be practical to get every faction out there something akin to the Space Marines combat doctrines (devastator, tactical, assault)? Thoughts?

Did doctrines replace army wide rules that Space Marines already had, or were they added on top?

For example, my Dark Angels currently have Grim Resolve, so when the next Psychic Awakening drops, will Combat Doctrines replace Grim Resolve or be added on top of it? If it's added on top, that means that we'll have And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Combat Doctrines, Grim Resolve, Shock Assault and possibly more that I don't know about. That's at least five army special rules, which seems like a lot. Do all armies get around this number of special rules? Like, do Necrons get four other things besides Reanimation Protocols that I don't know about? I feel like all armies should be equatable here.

Edit: Except Grey Knights. I don't think anyone would envy them getting a few extra rules with the condition they're in at the moment.

Not rotating doctrines, but a mono-bonus would be good to hand out.

OTOH, I also agree that faction/sub-faction bonuses are getting out of hand.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
I was wondering if it would be practical to get every faction out there something akin to the Space Marines combat doctrines (devastator, tactical, assault)? Thoughts?

Did doctrines replace army wide rules that Space Marines already had, or were they added on top?

For example, my Dark Angels currently have Grim Resolve, so when the next Psychic Awakening drops, will Combat Doctrines replace Grim Resolve or be added on top of it? If it's added on top, that means that we'll have And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Combat Doctrines, Grim Resolve, Shock Assault and possibly more that I don't know about. That's at least five army special rules, which seems like a lot. Do all armies get around this number of special rules? Like, do Necrons get four other things besides Reanimation Protocols that I don't know about? I feel like all armies should be equatable here.

Edit: Except Grey Knights. I don't think anyone would envy them getting a few extra rules with the condition they're in at the moment.

Added on top.

Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Probably, yes.

BrianDavion wrote:
Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Ohh we know its happening. Power creep is real bro. Anyone who thinks otherwise .. I don't know what to tell ya lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
I was wondering if it would be practical to get every faction out there something akin to the Space Marines combat doctrines (devastator, tactical, assault)? Thoughts?

Did doctrines replace army wide rules that Space Marines already had, or were they added on top?

For example, my Dark Angels currently have Grim Resolve, so when the next Psychic Awakening drops, will Combat Doctrines replace Grim Resolve or be added on top of it? If it's added on top, that means that we'll have And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Combat Doctrines, Grim Resolve, Shock Assault and possibly more that I don't know about. That's at least five army special rules, which seems like a lot. Do all armies get around this number of special rules? Like, do Necrons get four other things besides Reanimation Protocols that I don't know about? I feel like all armies should be equatable here.

Edit: Except Grey Knights. I don't think anyone would envy them getting a few extra rules with the condition they're in at the moment.

All of those have been rolled up into "angels of death" USR for space marines. And its just the tip of the rules iceberg. And no. No other army gets so many layers of special rules currently.

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Ohh we know its happening. Power creep is real bro. Anyone who thinks otherwise .. I don't know what to tell ya lol.

well people who play mono codex hate getting curb stomped by people who run soup, so with that in play I think mono-faction bonuses are absolutely a thing that needs having. even doctrines by themselves I actually think aren't that bad an idea. In fact Doctrines by themselves (I'm discussing doctrines independant of the super doctrines here) actually added some nice depth to space marines, as they'd need to think about when to move through their doctrines.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Ohh we know its happening. Power creep is real bro. Anyone who thinks otherwise .. I don't know what to tell ya lol.

well people who play mono codex hate getting curb stomped by people who run soup, so with that in play I think mono-faction bonuses are absolutely a thing that needs having. even doctrines by themselves I actually think aren't that bad an idea. In fact Doctrines by themselves (I'm discussing doctrines independant of the super doctrines here) actually added some nice depth to space marines, as they'd need to think about when to move through their doctrines.

Seems like you are saying its the souping that's been a problem... which has been discussed to no ends on dakka. And it seems like "doctrines" are an answer to that rather then removing souping…
Doctrines are nice if you have them for sure I bet

Lets revisit this conversation once everyone and their mothers has doctrines... and SM/Eldar are no longer top dogs.
I cant wait for Necron/Tau doctrines..

No.

Adding more paragraphs of special rules doesn't fix the massive math errors the designers made when writing the statlines in the Indexes.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Ohh we know its happening. Power creep is real bro. Anyone who thinks otherwise .. I don't know what to tell ya lol.

well people who play mono codex hate getting curb stomped by people who run soup, so with that in play I think mono-faction bonuses are absolutely a thing that needs having. even doctrines by themselves I actually think aren't that bad an idea. In fact Doctrines by themselves (I'm discussing doctrines independant of the super doctrines here) actually added some nice depth to space marines, as they'd need to think about when to move through their doctrines.

I agree that most armies should and probably will get equivalents to doctrines for going mono codex. I just hope gw are a little more creative with them than they were for marines. Just giving them -1 to ap was pretty unimaginative.

It would be nice if they came with downsides as well as the army bonuses in hh do. Are Night Lords better in cc? Yes but only if they outnumber their opponents. And Nostroman Blood means they act like the rabble of undisciplined psychopaths they are the second they don't have a strong leader around to give them a kick in their midnight blue backsides.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Ohh we know its happening. Power creep is real bro. Anyone who thinks otherwise .. I don't know what to tell ya lol.

well people who play mono codex hate getting curb stomped by people who run soup, so with that in play I think mono-faction bonuses are absolutely a thing that needs having. even doctrines by themselves I actually think aren't that bad an idea. In fact Doctrines by themselves (I'm discussing doctrines independant of the super doctrines here) actually added some nice depth to space marines, as they'd need to think about when to move through their doctrines.

I agree that most armies should and probably will get equivalents to doctrines for going mono codex. I just hope gw are a little more creative with them than they were for marines. Just giving them -1 to ap was pretty unimaginative.

It would be nice if they came with downsides as well as the army bonuses in hh do. Are Night Lords better in cc? Yes but only if they outnumber their opponents. And Nostroman Blood means they act like the rabble of undisciplined psychopaths they are the second they don't have a strong leader around to give them a kick in their midnight blue backsides.

keep in mind it's not a blanket -1 to AP, it's a shifting -1 AP depending on what doctrine you're using, the idea is honestly not a bad one as it adds a bit of tactical depth of this bonus, when you you shift doctrines etc. (as I said earlier, we're dismissing super doctrine traits here as they're a whole 'nother kettle of fish)

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind it's not a blanket -1 to AP, it's a shifting -1 AP depending on what doctrine you're using, the idea is honestly not a bad one as it adds a bit of tactical depth of this bonus, when you you shift doctrines etc. (as I said earlier, we're dismissing super doctrine traits here as they're a whole 'nother kettle of fish)

But even a rotating -1AP on certain weapon types is unfair if other armies don't get an equivalent, right? Or have Space Marines also been made more expensive than everyone else to account for this?

I think the doctrines we've seen from Space Marines are nice in that they more or less disincentivize soup, which is superb. However, the game is just off the rails now. It has been for a while.

The ease with which normal units in armies suddenly become 2+(re-rolling), etc....is absurd. The fact that you have a game where a 4+ ability to fight or shoot (which is completely acceptable for an infantry unit) is seen as absolute "garbage" just tells you where the game is. They're making a wargame where it seems outlandish to actually miss a shot or fail to wound.

Depends on what your existing trait is most likely. GW takes great care with the competitive balance of the game.

Take for example the Word Bearers. They have had one of the most game breakingly powerful sub faction traits in the game (reroll failed morale for Characters, Infantry, Bikers and Helbrutes, note how it doesn't even function on 50% of the eligible keywords. Imagine how good it must be)

Luckily for the health of the game they were left as is. Tweaking or adding to it could have completely thrown off the game.

We'd have countless threads debating whether it's really because everyone has a Chaos army in the closet. Or maybe it's a couple subfactions that are the problem but it's hard to tell as a huge percentage of those who select the strongest possible option to contend are playing them...

 Ginjitzu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind it's not a blanket -1 to AP, it's a shifting -1 AP depending on what doctrine you're using, the idea is honestly not a bad one as it adds a bit of tactical depth of this bonus, when you you shift doctrines etc. (as I said earlier, we're dismissing super doctrine traits here as they're a whole 'nother kettle of fish)

But even a rotating -1AP on certain weapon types is unfair if other armies don't get an equivalent, right? Or have Space Marines also been made more expensive than everyone else to account for this?

As I've already said, the long term is that every army will have a "mono codex" bonus.

As I said earlier, the one codex to come out post Space Marines has been Sisters of Battle.

who yes have a Mono codex boost.
Will they all be equal? no. No more then chapter tactics are all equal. (remember chapter tactics where supposed to encourage us to keep our detachments pure)

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Sisters of battle are the one new CODEX we've gotten since codex space Marines came out, and they had a "mono codex bonus" so I think we can comfortably assume this will indeed be the case going forward.

Ohh we know its happening. Power creep is real bro. Anyone who thinks otherwise .. I don't know what to tell ya lol.

well people who play mono codex hate getting curb stomped by people who run soup, so with that in play I think mono-faction bonuses are absolutely a thing that needs having. even doctrines by themselves I actually think aren't that bad an idea. In fact Doctrines by themselves (I'm discussing doctrines independant of the super doctrines here) actually added some nice depth to space marines, as they'd need to think about when to move through their doctrines.

I agree that most armies should and probably will get equivalents to doctrines for going mono codex. I just hope gw are a little more creative with them than they were for marines. Just giving them -1 to ap was pretty unimaginative.

It would be nice if they came with downsides as well as the army bonuses in hh do. Are Night Lords better in cc? Yes but only if they outnumber their opponents. And Nostroman Blood means they act like the rabble of undisciplined psychopaths they are the second they don't have a strong leader around to give them a kick in their midnight blue backsides.

keep in mind it's not a blanket -1 to AP, it's a shifting -1 AP depending on what doctrine you're using, the idea is honestly not a bad one as it adds a bit of tactical depth of this bonus, when you you shift doctrines etc. (as I said earlier, we're dismissing super doctrine traits here as they're a whole 'nother kettle of fish)

True but keep in mind that a lot of chapters just stay parked in the devastator doctrine.

Agreed on the super doctrines. I believe improved chapter tactics would have been enough.

Doctrines as marines have them is the wrong way. They just make things to killy and pushes lists to abuse them. I would rather the new chapter tactics were split in 3 parts, 2 as now and part of the doctrines as a third part, and you only got all when mono chapter, 2 when astartes soup and then 1 if souping.

Lets take BA for example. If souping you are like before and only get +1 to wound. If astartes you also get +1 ap in close range turn 2/3+ and if mono you also get +1 to charge/advance.

For devastator doctrine chapters its enough if they get +1 ap only on turn 1 since thats when it is the most powerful.

Would limit abuse and reign in some of the bonuses.

BrianDavion wrote:
As I've already said, the long term is that every army will have a "mono codex" bonus.

As I said earlier, the one codex to come out post Space Marines has been Sisters of Battle.

who yes have a Mono codex boost.
Will they all be equal? no. No more then chapter tactics are all equal. (remember chapter tactics where supposed to encourage us to keep our detachments pure)

Yeah, but what about And They Shall Know No Fear, Bolter Discipline, Grim Resolve, Shock Assault and anything else not related to mono-codex? Did sisters get enough stuff to balance out against all of that? I'm not asking hypothetically, or masking a point; I'm genuinely just asking. I have no idea what rules Sisters have.

Edit: actually, you already answered on the last line of your reply I guess. Sorry, I didn't read it carefully. But basically, I've been hearing about how skewed the new Space Marines are against everything else. (I've been tabled by them myself recently, but I'm far too casual to be an authority on why) and I'm wondering if Sisters are on a level with them now, because this would indicate that the base power level of the game has been increased game wide, and the rest will have to play catch up now. Or are sisters still equivalent to the pre-Marine power level, indicating that marines are an aberration rather than the new norm.

Sisters have one build (VH infantry spam) which is really good against marines, but in general no, they are not on the same level of marines.

They are strong but not overly so, you can play against sisters with any faction and have a good game.

Most important factor is that they have a really good internal balance, they have a lot of different builds and for now it seems that they are all working, but there is no broken combo that you can pull off with them.

So as for the power creep i don't know how to answer. We have 2 data points now regarding the new codex cycle, marines and sisters. One screams power creep, the other one doesn't.

That said, marines don't really scream power creep, they scream "Totally messy internal balance". They are in a situation similar to the old knights, where if they curb stomp a couple of stratagems, nerf a doctrine and change some points, they are much less problematic.

How in the world will they incentivize mono Necrons? It's not like we have the option to soup anyway. Same goes for Tau and Orks.

I think we need all the doctrines on everything, and super duper doctrines, many of them for everything, forever.

Argive wrote:All armies should have re-rolls and modifiers severely reigned in/removed and all combat doctrines removed.

Pretty much verbatim what I came here to write.

they shouldn't have extra rules on the ken of marines anyway, but they will try to do these things somewhat. good luck effectively incentivizing mono while trying to trim down on the "soup", because the sisters one is the most gentle of nudges if thats the intent compared to space marines.

for those who aren't aware, the Sacred Rites (the sisters equivalent) don't affect a decent number of datasheets, and outside of an effect that can help them deny powers, most of them turn into a question of "is my gameplay gonna justify using these vs my soup options?" they aren't nothing at all, but i was decidedly cold on the effects outside the deny which in and of itself is situational.

Bdrone wrote:
they shouldn't have extra rules on the ken of marines anyway, but they will try to do these things somewhat. good luck effectively incentivizing mono while trying to trim down on the "soup", because the sisters one is the most gentle of nudges if thats the intent compared to space marines.

for those who aren't aware, the Sacred Rites (the sisters equivalent) don't affect a decent number of datasheets, and outside of an effect that can help them deny powers, most of them turn into a question of "is my gameplay gonna justify using these vs my soup options?" they aren't nothing at all, but i was decidedly cold on the effects outside the deny which in and of itself is situational.

ohh I agree if not for the timing being a bit fast for that one would almost wonder if sisters mono-dex ability is an overcorrection.

I mean Spirit of the Martyr isn't bad, but the quick question is "would I happily give up a Knight for this?" (I use Knight specificly as they're one of the easiest things to add into otherwise pure list)

BrianDavion wrote:

Bdrone wrote:
they shouldn't have extra rules on the ken of marines anyway, but they will try to do these things somewhat. good luck effectively incentivizing mono while trying to trim down on the "soup", because the sisters one is the most gentle of nudges if thats the intent compared to space marines.

for those who aren't aware, the Sacred Rites (the sisters equivalent) don't affect a decent number of datasheets, and outside of an effect that can help them deny powers, most of them turn into a question of "is my gameplay gonna justify using these vs my soup options?" they aren't nothing at all, but i was decidedly cold on the effects outside the deny which in and of itself is situational.

ohh I agree if not for the timing being a bit fast for that one would almost wonder if sisters mono-dex ability is an overcorrection.

I mean Spirit of the Martyr isn't bad, but the quick question is "would I happily give up a Knight for this?" (I use Knight specificly as they're one of the easiest things to add into otherwise pure list)

Could it be because sob are more likely to be souped? Certain armies lack in options and units to fill certain rules. Your example of a knight is good because sob have no super heavys. So maybe stronger mono faction bonuses for armies who can more easily go it alone like marines but weaker ones for armies with more limited resources who are more likely to be used in mixed forces like sob, harlequins, or custodes?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
No.

Adding more paragraphs of special rules doesn't fix the massive math errors the designers made when writing the statlines in the Indexes.

I don't think the issue is necessarily math errors (that's certainly an issue, just not the issue).

IMO the real issue is that the base game has absolutely no tactical or strategic depth and nothing that can be expanded on. What's more, many of the core mechanics in the game appear to have been thrown together at the last minute so that there's virtually no synergy or interaction between them. The scale-creep has continued unabated, naturally, yet even the largest, most complex models still play like walking bricks.

Hence, all GW can do is pile on more and more special rules and pretend that that amounts to depth.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Bdrone wrote:
they shouldn't have extra rules on the ken of marines anyway, but they will try to do these things somewhat. good luck effectively incentivizing mono while trying to trim down on the "soup", because the sisters one is the most gentle of nudges if thats the intent compared to space marines.

for those who aren't aware, the Sacred Rites (the sisters equivalent) don't affect a decent number of datasheets, and outside of an effect that can help them deny powers, most of them turn into a question of "is my gameplay gonna justify using these vs my soup options?" they aren't nothing at all, but i was decidedly cold on the effects outside the deny which in and of itself is situational.

ohh I agree if not for the timing being a bit fast for that one would almost wonder if sisters mono-dex ability is an overcorrection.

I mean Spirit of the Martyr isn't bad, but the quick question is "would I happily give up a Knight for this?" (I use Knight specificly as they're one of the easiest things to add into otherwise pure list)

Could it be because sob are more likely to be souped? Certain armies lack in options and units to fill certain rules. Your example of a knight is good because sob have no super heavys. So maybe stronger mono faction bonuses for armies who can more easily go it alone like marines but weaker ones for armies with more limited resources who are more likely to be used in mixed forces like sob, harlequins, or custodes?

I doubt that, one thing sisters have over Marines (yet again we're not counting super doctrines for this discussion) is the ability to choose from several abilities (and get 2 if you're willing to roll randomly) this can, in theory be a pretty potent ability. for example one of the abilities you can choose buffs the sisters ability to deny the witch,this would be pretty handy agaisnt say.. 1k sons or something, but if you where playing Tau.. you can choose a more relevant advantage.

Meanwhile if Marines foughty an army that was more dependant on invul saves then armor saves (such as deamons) doctrines would suddenly be rendered less great.

for the record I'm not trying to claim doctrines AREN'T etter then what sisters have, but I'm trying to follow the train of logic GW's writers made

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

All armies should have re-rolls and modifiers severely reigned in/removed and all combat doctrines removed.

Agreed. I'll add to that. Eliminate Character Auras and make Strategems one use per battle.

That is good for armies with stratagems that last the whole game or have super powerful effects. It isn't as fun for armies that use stragems as a replacment for removed gear or being under stated.

Not saying that all armies should have the same stratagems or same marine type of doctrin, but they have to have something. Either way above avarge stats, and fewer rules, or they need to get a set of replacment rules.