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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 arkhanist wrote:
Trust is much easier to destroy than build

Seemingly the other way around when it comes to GW's fanbase though.

I don't know, the fanbase never lets GW live anything down. Just look how long they beat the dead horse named "Squats".

It became a very convinient word to refer to the process of removing a faction from the game.

 Togusa wrote:
Anyway,

I was looking over the original rumors from earlier in the year/last fall. There is mention of plastic Vindicators. How likely is that do you all think?

The side panels on the Deimos sprue have a section for either the circular door (on a seperate spure), but an armoured panel for a Vindicator or a predator sponson connection could be added into that gap easily:


Plus by putting the side panel insert and top panel on the same sprue it makes swapping things around for turrets or other details easier as well.


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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 arkhanist wrote:
Trust is much easier to destroy than build

Seemingly the other way around when it comes to GW's fanbase though.

I don't know, the fanbase never lets GW live anything down. Just look how long they beat the dead horse named "Squats".

It became a very convinient word to refer to the process of removing a faction from the game.

I wasn't even talking about the use of "Squatted". I meant just asking about Squats at every opportunity.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I wasn't even talking about the use of "Squatted". I meant just asking about Squats at every opportunity.

Apparently that paid off. Same for Sisters.

And now, look. After just a couple years of people worrying about the fate and removal of old-style marines in the face of primaris, I'm just going to gesture to all this...
And the more and more that'll be coming.

Voss wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I wasn't even talking about the use of "Squatted". I meant just asking about Squats at every opportunity.

Apparently that paid off. Same for Sisters.

And now, look. After just a couple years of people worrying about the fate and removal of old-style marines in the face of primaris, I'm just going to gesture to all this...
And the more and more that'll be coming.

Firstborn aren't being removed, they're just being moved.

From 40k to 30k.

Feel free to gesture away.

You can't move Mk 7 Firstborn into 30k! How many times does it need to be said?

How much Mk.VII was around during the Horus Heresy? Was Mk.VIII a post-Heresy thing?

From memory, MkVII was created towards the end of the Heresy, with MkVIII coming shortly after the Heresy finished.

MkVII would be limited to Siege of Terra and the forces there

So limited to Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars

Additionally, the unit organization of Firstborn marines isn't at all compatible with the Heresy, to say nothing of canonically postwar units like the LR Crusader, Predator Annihilator, Razorback, Centurions, etc.

I have no issue with GW moving all Firstborn units into Legends, but shoving them at the Heresy, as if they'd be welcome or usable there, is completely untenable to both Firstborn and (I believe) Heresy players.

the unit organisation does not matter, the first HH plastic model boxes were made to match the 40k unit organisation

and adding new vehicles that are actually long lost tech or STK that was found during the heresy and lost later, as well as combat modifications done by the marines is no problem either
if GW wants to do it, they do it

I'm down for them moving FB to a "Scouring" adaptation of 30K.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
You can't move Mk 7 Firstborn into 30k! How many times does it need to be said?

Why not? There were mkvii's in HH. Not in huge quantities but on the HH game scales easily passable.

Plus we are talking about GW. You know? The guy who owns the game universum. They can write anything they so wish. Tiny amount of mkviii's were already out? Totally in their right and again with tiny skirmish scale of HH games it wouldn't even be every mkviii armour in use. Predator annihilator? GW can just write it it was forgotten after HH and wolves reinvented it later.

They own the game. They can write sisters of silence as the main forces of HH instead of marines if they so wish...

What's the point of discussing anything in the first place even, in that case?

And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing? Are they all just Imperial Fists in really cunning camouflage now? Or should everyone be forced to repaint? Maybe for you that's no big deal, I don't know. I was under the impression that Heresy players cared about their backstory a fair bit, which is why they keep arguing whether or not Mk6 spacewombles are appropriate for all legions.

No. I'd rather my Mk7 units be removed from the game entirely. Retcon them out of existence wholesale while they're at it. Just leave a big wad of [REDACTED] in the Marines' history between the end of the Heresy and the Ultima Founding.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing?

They get the opportunity to buy and paint 2 new armies
One Primaris Army for 40k and another one (MkVI) for HH

This will be the best time every or every dedicated hobbyist, and GW will het enough people to advertise it as the best thing ever to convince everyone (and if not, you can still play something else, GW does not care as you don't buy a new army anyway)

As far as Marines are concerned, there are basically three main eras, each with fairly different forces being fielded: Great Crusade/Heresy, Scouring to Ultima Founding, and post-Ultima Founding ("the present").

A problem GW has is that the Marine codex lets you take stuff from all three of these eras (only a smattering of "Relic" units from the Heresy, granted). Personally I think it a shame if the ability to play lists set in that intermediate period is taken away. GW could do it, as tneva82 points out, but I don't think they could do it *well*. It would just overall suck for all concerned. That being said, I don't expect the game rules or armylists to be compatible with more than the nebulous "now".

So, for that "now", maybe the answer is consolidating Firstborn into a specific Legends unit entry, like slightly expanded versions of Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans, representing those holdovers from older Marine batches who aren't compatible with the new augmentations and wargear for various reasons. By 11th edition (around 2026 or so?), enough turnover among hobbyists will have happened that this too could be dropped.

I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn. the fact is the HH just gives Firstborn in 40K a MASSIVE shot in the arm as now suddenly GW is producing tons of kits that can be used for them. even if we accept that the MK VI tac squad kit isn't exactly "ideal" for 40k. we have the kratos, and a new rhino.

And it should be noted that vehcles where the oldest firstborn kits. if we suddeenly get Dmios pattern rhino chassis kits that gives a BIIIIG shot in the arm to first born longivity

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Who knows why madmen do what they do?

Any guesses to what we may see today? Plastic Proteus Land Raider? Despoiler Upgrade Kit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Bet you'd find a few on this forum if you looked hard enough.

I think probably the Proteus, since influencers already inferred its existence looking at the sprues in their Spartans, and we got those grainy leaked pics.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for some unknown infantry since we've already seen a pretty big cornucopia of plastic vehicles. Despoiler or Assault Squads would both be more than welcome, I'm sure.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?
Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

Me too, simply because it is the best for the player in the long run

als long as Old Marines exists as playbale force within 40k, you need to buy Primaris and Marines to get everything.
remove Marines, and playing a proxy Primaris army with you exisiting collection is not a problem because no one can confuse them with something else
also you get less internal balance problem as they don't need hundreds of datasheets to cover every single Marine option that is still out there

in addition, using the plastic HH as proxy Primaris is much easier than using them as proxy Marines

it might hurt first but in the long run it would be better (it would have been better if GW went straight into "Marine models are replace by Truescale Marine models instead of this mix that caused more problems than it ever can solve)

It's also important to remember that the average 40k player only collects their marines for an edition or two before leaving the hobby ("growing up and discovering girls", as the tired joke goes), so catering to longbeards is economically fairly meaningless.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's also important to remember that the average 40k player only collects their marines for an edition or two before leaving the hobby ("growing up and discovering girls", as the tired joke goes), so catering to longbeards is economically fairly meaningless.

That's true, after a fashion. Because many come back later in their lives. We actually got told both during orientations, plus "...and half of the time, they bring their children too".

but if you return later on, you have to buy a new marine army anyway because of all the changes that happened
so having old Marines around makes no sense other to force current players to by Primaris if they want to use them

 kodos wrote:
but if you return later on, you have to buy a new marine army anyway because of all the changes that happened
so having old Marines around makes no sense other to force current players to by Primaris if they want to use them

Well, don't know about that. Everything that marines got twenty years ago, they still have it, except very specific things like... dunno, bike chaplains or the like?

I don't think you'd need to buy a full new army if you didn't want to.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the only people who want to see the first born moved entirely to the HH are those still despirate to be right about the idea that GW intends to Squat firstborn.

That makes zero sense. Why would anyone want to be right about that?

Far as I know, the only person here who definitely wants First Born's shuffled off this mortal coil is Crimson.

No, me too. All primaris all the way.

 Albertorius wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but if you return later on, you have to buy a new marine army anyway because of all the changes that happened
so having old Marines around makes no sense other to force current players to by Primaris if they want to use them

Well, don't know about that. Everything that marines got twenty years ago, they still have it, except very specific things like... dunno, bike chaplains or the like?
I don't think you'd need to buy a full new army if you didn't want to.

to get my 3rd Edition Space Wolves legal in 9th I can as well just buy into Primaris would make no difference

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And what about everybody's custom chapters and paintjobs? You know, the things they've spent tens or hundreds of hours painstakingly realizing? Are they all just Imperial Fists in really cunning camouflage now? Or should everyone be forced to repaint? Maybe for you that's no big deal, I don't know. I was under the impression that Heresy players cared about their backstory a fair bit, which is why they keep arguing whether or not Mk6 spacewombles are appropriate for all legions.

No. I'd rather my Mk7 units be removed from the game entirely. Retcon them out of existence wholesale while they're at it. Just leave a big wad of [REDACTED] in the Marines' history between the end of the Heresy and the Ultima Founding.

What to do with squatted Firstborn in 40K? Play an earlier edition. Problem solved.


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 Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's also important to remember that the average 40k player only collects their marines for an edition or two before leaving the hobby ("growing up and discovering girls", as the tired joke goes), so catering to longbeards is economically fairly meaningless.

Unless the longbeard fully matures into a whale. Take a look into the video game sphere. Players spent 10K bucks on a single account. GW want to have access to these big spenders too.

Why are some people so desperate to get rid of original Space Marines? Why is this even a topic for discussion in the 30k thread?