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 Grimtuff wrote:


The problem is (which I mainly see on Reddit due to the echo chamber mentality the karma scores can cause), people seem to have forgotten what "C+C" means. It does not mean "Command and Conquer", "Cheese and Crackers" or other such nonsense, it means "Comments and Criticism". However this seems not to work in practice as anything other than fawning praise is downvoted, and thus; ignored.

You can advise someone on what they did incorrectly in painting or modelling as politely as you like, but I can guarantee; IME they will not take it well.

cc is comments and criticism? i always though it was asking for constructive criticism...

well anyway. honestly i float around sometimes on reddit mini painting and i dont think iv ever seen anyone with a legitimate CC getting downvoted into oblivion. is it really that prevalent? at most i see no one up or downvoting anything

 Desubot wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:


The problem is (which I mainly see on Reddit due to the echo chamber mentality the karma scores can cause), people seem to have forgotten what "C+C" means. It does not mean "Command and Conquer", "Cheese and Crackers" or other such nonsense, it means "Comments and Criticism". However this seems not to work in practice as anything other than fawning praise is downvoted, and thus; ignored.

You can advise someone on what they did incorrectly in painting or modelling as politely as you like, but I can guarantee; IME they will not take it well.

cc is comments and criticism? i always though it was asking for constructive criticism...

well anyway. honestly i float around sometimes on reddit mini painting and i dont think iv ever seen anyone with a legitimate CC getting downvoted into oblivion. is it really that prevalent? at most i see no one up or downvoting anything

r/warhammer40k is the worst for it IMO. Try pointing out that maybe that paintjob needs some tweaking or it is a bad idea to use entire sprues as terrain without cutting them up and slicing bits off them is asking to get brigaded. I've given up most times with giving advice on that sub due to various OPs not actually wanting it.

I am exceedingly happy to see ANYONE attempting to paint, nevermind using a type of paint excessively.

I would suggest rather than discourage use of metallic paints, just educate a bit!
Use a slightly darker non-metallic paint first and then lightly use the metallic after.
The "problem" with metallics are they tend to be a bit transparent.

I was always upset starting out that the trim on my Black Legion chaos marines looked so blobby and uneven... that was the main cause.
Shade after metallics helps a great deal in defining things better.
Metallics also seemed to get rather hard to paint on properly, adding a bit of matt medium would be an added help.

Contamination is a problem with them as well, use different water pots and brushes or else your model will look like it went out to the disco covered in glitter.

I am just happy if we can steer new people away from Testers Enamel paints and the Red Testers squeeze tube model glue.
That is what I started with and I think I still twitch looking at them.

Yeah admittedly I have seen plenty of critiques turn into a mess online, but I think it is how that critique is given?

Like this tends to go over better:

Hey that is a fantastic start, I like X aspect of what you have done here - what would really take it to the next level is to maybe do X (add some highlighting here, add another color, thin the paint a little more, etc)

But even soft-ball critiques like that I have seen blow up at times so like everything else these days it can be a mine field lol

 Talizvar wrote:

I am just happy if we can steer new people away from Testers Enamel paints and the Red Testers squeeze tube model glue.
That is what I started with and I think I still twitch looking at them.

I used these bad boys to "paint" my first models, the Legend of Zagor Chaos Champions.

It's hard because criticism without a point of reference to compare to is hard to gauge. Like is it golden demon level? Are you happy with it? Most people are just proud of what they did and want some encouragement and maybe some tips on getting a LITTLE better or suggestions on additional colors.

Lets be honest, most models probably shouldn't be painted to a level worthy of actual criticism. Even "poor" paintjobs are often better than the average mass produced toy or prepaint figure. Most people just need the encouragement to get the rest of the army done and some advice to make it "pop". Real criticism is rarely helpful unless they're specifically bringing it to competition.

petrov27 wrote:
Yeah admittedly I have seen plenty of critiques turn into a mess online, but I think it is how that critique is given?

Like this tends to go over better:

Hey that is a fantastic start, I like X aspect of what you have done here - what would really take it to the next level is to maybe do X (add some highlighting here, add another color, thin the paint a little more, etc)

But even soft-ball critiques like that I have seen blow up at times so like everything else these days it can be a mine field lol

I always start constructive criticism with something I like or that I think is done well. It's good etiquette.

Constructive criticism is the most valuable tool you can get, and it's free! It's way more valuable than fawning praise.

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

First off I don't recognize what you are stating (too much metallic). I started with Orks, green and red, metallic details only. Second, why would you want to discourage people from doing something they (as you write) think is awesome?!?

I would never call beginners paintjobs 'bad', but if you wanna use that term, I don't think they suddenly are painting masterpieces with other colours.

I haven't met anyone yet who thought they 'ruined' their first model, with any colour. Most people look back and enjoy they steps they've made in becoming a better painter.

If you have seen people quit and never come back because their first paint job wasn't what they imagined it would be, I would not blame it on metallic paints. They wouldn't have done better in any other colour and apparently they don't wanna practice and get better.

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

Ah... if I'm playing a fantasy army of heavily armored dudes, you'd better believe there's going to be lots of metallic paint involved regardless of my experience and your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoftyS wrote:
If Wizards of the Coast only sold booster packs, of which you have to buy and open hundreds to build a decent deck, they would never have reached 25 million players or even a tenth of that.

You obviously weren't there when Magic EXPLODED onto the scene... selling ONLY random cards in packs. Premade starter decks weren't even a thing until after I quit in the 4th-5th edition period.

 Vulcan wrote:
You obviously weren't there when Magic EXPLODED onto the scene... selling ONLY random cards in packs. Premade starter decks weren't even a thing until after I quit in the 4th-5th edition period.

The card pool was tiny though. And the game overall way less complex by a factor of 200. The random packs also contained way more cards and were cheaper. Kind of beside the point, today the overall card pool is over 20,000

On a second take, by labelling certain paints as being "expert," your so called "newbies" will be drawn to those paints more because they'd believe it'd result in "expert" quality outcomes.

Honestly there's nothing more expert about metallics than any other kind of paint that we use on models. Metallics are also easy to understand for a newbie, whilst no-metallic-metals is actually a harder skill that requires more fine brush control and lighting understanding. Two things that will take newbies time to learn and develop the skills to actually achieve a good result that doesn't look rubbish.

In the end bad painting happens. Trying to segment the painting resources into smaller and smaller niches won't help. Far better and far easier to simply encourage and help out those newbies in your area. Run teaching sessions, give them help and critique and encouragement.








Also its my observation that there is a skill in giving critique and not everyone has it - both in person and online. There is also an art in receiving and learning how to process and respond. I've seen long arguments (photography forums) and raging people on BOTH sides purely because they get caught up using and focusing on the wrong words in the discussion. The actual object of critique then fast gets forgotten and it becomes a battle of egos.

Heck I've seen more than one experienced person get really annoyed and angry because a newbie does respond to the critique but then disagrees with it. Or acknowledges it and says its not for them.

For as many experienced people claim that newbies have thin skin; many an experienced person can easily have skin just a thin when they are critiqued.

LoftyS wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
You obviously weren't there when Magic EXPLODED onto the scene... selling ONLY random cards in packs. Premade starter decks weren't even a thing until after I quit in the 4th-5th edition period.

The card pool was tiny though. And the game overall way less complex by a factor of 200. The random packs also contained way more cards and were cheaper. Kind of beside the point, today the overall card pool is over 20,000

True, but no one uses the ones that aren't 'tournament legal' anymore. Trust me, I TRIED to find legacy games for a while before selling my play decks. There are more cards that are 'bad', and are rarely if ever used except in 'crap rare' tournaments. So that pool of cards that are actually being USED is quite a bit less than the 20,000 printed.

At any rate, Magic BECAME Magic the Addiction with that relatively small pool of random cards for... I don't know, over a decade at least. Indeed, I think the lesser variety of the game back then sits well as a metaphor for GW paints, as there sure isn't 20,000 different GW paints even if you include all the OOP colors...

Andykp wrote:
Also notice, lofty, you haven’t uploaded any gallery images yet, be interesting to see your paint work. I’m normally happy to see other painters work, I’m no expert by any measure but most don’t place them selves on such pedestal. Hope to see some expert NMM work, a technique I’m not keen at all by the way. Looks great when done well on display pieces but not to my personal tastes.

the phrase "put up or shut up" comes to mind aye

What's wrong with models painted with metallic?

I have to hope that everyone is willing to band together and paint more metallic models. Bring back the Realm of Chaos (90's) 'Eavy Metal style colored ink over metallic color schemes.

I, for one, going to go off and paint a squad of shiny metallic (metallic metal) CSM this weekend because of this thread.

I browsed through this gak thread and found no justification as to why metallics are particularly bad. Sure some colors like blue and red are easier, but I seriously hope no one is advocating for making the default paint scheme of every faction spiderman.

 solkan wrote:
I have to hope that everyone is willing to band together and paint more metallic models. Bring back the Realm of Chaos (90's) 'Eavy Metal style colored ink over metallic color schemes.

I, for one, going to go off and paint a squad of shiny metallic (metallic metal) CSM this weekend because of this thread.

If only I had something garish to paint...

To add to the discussion, an example of where I started with metallic paints, and where I am now.

When I started, metallics were fairly difficult. Partially, it was due to my using craft paints (*shudder*), and incorrectly thinning the paints down. Color choice was poor as well. However, after my initial blunder and one base coated army stripped later, I had another go with GW's actual metallic paints and discovered that, with a bright light source, I can, effectively, trace the light.

Trial, error, patience, and practice are what are needed to learn anything.

The only thing citadel.should do to their Metallics is make them cheaper so they can be used more! They are such lovely paints to use.

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Also notice, lofty, you haven’t uploaded any gallery images yet, be interesting to see your paint work. I’m normally happy to see other painters work, I’m no expert by any measure but most don’t place them selves on such pedestal. Hope to see some expert NMM work, a technique I’m not keen at all by the way. Looks great when done well on display pieces but not to my personal tastes.

the phrase "put up or shut up" comes to mind aye

Me thinks he can’t paint perhaps. Should stick to playing magic so he doesn’t have too!

Joking aside be good to see examples of what he dislikes and what he can do.

So come on lofty! Put up or shut up.

Didn't realise we were back in pre school.

You don't have to be a master chef to know your meal is bad.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Didn't realise we were back in pre school.

You don't have to be a master chef to know your meal is bad.

U don’t but the old saying of “people in glass houses” springs to mind.

If you take to the Internet slating stuff and then making out you are some kind authority on a matter you need to be able to back that up. So far all we can see of this guys experience on the issue he is spouting about is that he likes to play with cards.

As for pre school, we are talking about toy soldiers so let’s keep it suitably juvenile shall we.

If he is asking for GW to do a paint system that caters to all abilities, they already do. Paint isn’t difficult to use, how well it’s used is the key. Metallic, contrast, glazes or layers it all depends on the application how good it looks.

So I stand by my request. If lofty is good enough to talk about “awful” paint jobs let’s see his. I’ve posted a good few pics of my own and I’m very aware of my limitations and work daily to improve on them. Go look.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what a person's cooking experience is when he's demanding the chefs change what ingredients they use.

But hey, whatever metaphor it takes to defend elitism I guess...

I'm unsure of what the OP even smoking? Once I buy the figures and the paint, I can combine the two however I want. What's next, GW should tell players that Orks/Orruks cannot have non-green skin because it "doesn't look good to some players"? Hell, no. Regardless of skill level, people are responsible for their own models, not me.

Other than paint formats that are meant to convey an effect only when applied correctly (washes, glazes, contrast), paints are paints are paints, whether pink or metallic purple. There should not be any kind of restriction/ ranking of skill usage.

My entire Stormcast force uses metallic paints for 80% of the model, and I am a 25 year painter. And my experience doesn't even really matter much in this case, as both the platemail and gold embellishments are simply a layer of color straight out of the jar (with the lid open the whole time !!) and a single layer of wash over them.

Looks good to me. Metallica are just a paint and can be applied well or badly. Certainly not more difficult to use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what a person's cooking experience is when he's demanding the chefs change what ingredients they use.

But hey, whatever metaphor it takes to defend elitism I guess...

Agreed.

Andykp wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Also notice, lofty, you haven’t uploaded any gallery images yet, be interesting to see your paint work. I’m normally happy to see other painters work, I’m no expert by any measure but most don’t place them selves on such pedestal. Hope to see some expert NMM work, a technique I’m not keen at all by the way. Looks great when done well on display pieces but not to my personal tastes.

the phrase "put up or shut up" comes to mind aye

Me thinks he can’t paint perhaps. Should stick to playing magic so he doesn’t have too!

Joking aside be good to see examples of what he dislikes and what he can do.

So come on lofty! Put up or shut up.

I joined this forum in september and today is the first time I hear there's a gallery on here. So yeah, eventually I might fish my camera out and post something. But for now, I'm not in a rush. I realize this is just roundabout ad hominem but still, thanks for letting me know of this feature.

Don't forget when you say "beginners" you include many of the members of the forum. Beginner painters likely is a larger portion as well because many a gamer might have years of experience, but still be a very beginner level painter (or consider themselves as such).

So when you say things along the line of "GW should "deal" and "stop" people doing certain things" then you're including people who are part of the online community. To say nothing of the local beginners in their club.


Sometimes to convey your idea you've got to be less hostile/aggressive/direct in your language. Otherwise all you'll get is pushback based on ego and nothing more.







Though I'd repeat that the idea of trying to restrict beginners away from metallic paints isn't really the right approach toward resolving the issue of them being poor painters. It's basically a negative approach when there are far better positive approaches - staff teaching in stores; painting resources in print and online; tutorials and guides in battletomes/codex. Forums and local members aiding as well through providing guidance, feedback, critique, encouragement etc....

Sometimes I REALLY like to muddy the waters and get out my ancient GW citadel paints where they had colored metallics, like Amethyst Purple, Sapphire Blue, and Emerald Green.

I have an Eldar army in progress that is primarily purple armor and black-washed gunmetal, I wonder what it would look like if I used Amethyst Purple with a purple wash.....then you'd be facing a situation where not only is a model made of both Primary and Secondary metallics, but they are colors, too. Jesus wept.

And lets face it, GW metallics aren't all that bad. I use craft paints for a lot of my painting, but when it comes to metallics it's hobby grade paints all the way. And GW is one of the easiest hobby grade paints to get a hold of.