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They simply "should" polish the rules, integrate Faq and balance some models and legendary formation but surely they'll do more. Fortunately, as someone said, Jay Clayre is part of the ME Team and one of the strongest and competent player in the world so my hope is they'll do a good job. They did with the current edition.
ZergSmasher wrote: Removing bloat would be difficult because there isn't a whole lot of bloat, other than maybe the different special strikes for different hand weapons, but honestly that adds some flavor so it should at least stay as optional rules or something.
The Noobs and Men youtube channel said they had info that one thing they'll be removing is wargear options rather than units. One example would be Galahdrim Court Guards with shields. So stuff there's no models for and possibly aren't seen in the films.
With regards to invalidating books, they would have known the next edition release was incoming near the realse of the film, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Angmar book has been written with an eye to be relevent to this and the next edition, like the second WHFB 6th ed dwarf codex, which came out not long before 7th ed and was usable in both editions.
If that's the case it could be we're seeing minor edits to the rules so profiles would still be applicable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/09 07:07:14
The galaxy is littered with the single-planet graveyards of civilisations which made the economically sensible decision not to explore space.
.Mikes. wrote: The AoS silliness is very much creeping into the sculpts, especially the hill humans and the were wolves. And honestly that makes me a little concerned for a new edition. So long as they don't mess with the rules too much it will be fine though.
Aside from the outbreak of Tactical Rocks (TM), where do you see Age of Silliness having an impact on the Werewolves?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
.Mikes. wrote: They're cartoonish in their exaggerations. LOTR models to this point have all been more reality based.
Show anyone those werewolf models without context and ask them to guess what game they belong in.
You want reality based werewolves, huh? In my oppinion, these are probably the most realistic werewolves I ever saw. The concept is more or less impossible to execute in a good way without doing an exaggerated cartoon.
New minis are fine, nothing here approaches even the silliness of some of The Hobbit stuff, everything is in line with what we got.
New edition probably means just implementing FAQs and new profiles, maybe the occasional rewrite. Seeing how decisive heroic strikes are could call for a change, for example. It would be a shame to see no models no rules implemented in that game as it would mean to steal shields from all of my orc heroes for no reason, for example.
.Mikes. wrote: Show anyone those werewolf models without context and ask them to guess what game they belong in.
You don't have to like them by any means, but they do very much look like wargs, especially plastic Gothmog's mount. If you showed me those models sans all context, I could quite comfortably say they appear to be were-wargs for Games Workshop's Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game. We've had this more exaggerated aesthetic since at least the Dragon Cult Acolytes. Even the men of Carn Dum, cartoonish as they are, still fit the MESBG aesthetic more than they do AoS, though they are the closest so far. It's not an invalid concern, it's just a bit late.
Anyway, speculation time, do we think a new starter for a new edition might be enough for GW to finally redo the Last Alliance and make a plastic Sauron for a Siege of Barad-dur set? Or might there be a possible contractual obligation to make it War of the Rohirrim themed?
ZergSmasher wrote: Removing bloat would be difficult because there isn't a whole lot of bloat, other than maybe the different special strikes for different hand weapons, but honestly that adds some flavor so it should at least stay as optional rules or something.
The Noobs and Men youtube channel said they had info that one thing they'll be removing is wargear options rather than units. One example would be Galahdrim Court Guards with shields. So stuff there's no models for and possibly aren't seen in the films.
Unless I'm looking at the wrong book, they only have an option for a banner, no shields. That said...
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Gert wrote: I mean there's been no evidence of it and NMNR doesn't apply to non-core games as has been proven about a billion times by now.
I'm with you on that, but apparently it doesn't stop rumormongers from naming it as literally the only change for the new edition .
...it has already happened in the past, and could theoretically be further restricted in the future depending on their plans for making certain miniatures and willingness to take let other companies fill any gaps. Plus potential considerations of game balance. Minor example: Watchers of Kârna used to have two swords (kinda but not officially resulting in them having 2 attacks), and the option for a bow. That changed to having either two swords (and two attacks), or a sword and a bow. Which happens to match what the official models have. More impactful example: Moria Goblin Prowlers used to have the choice of two-handed weapons, shields, and/or bows. Now, they have no options anymore at all - they just come with two-handed weapons by default, just like the official models do. If you converted dozens of figures for the other weapon options, or bought the alternative models made by other manufacturers that I definitely recall existing, too bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like quite a few others, I'm not a fan of the Carn Dûm figures, mainly for the antler hats and lazy stereotypical barbarian tropes (bare chest, furry leg-warmers) found in Chaos Marauders and beyond. But what strikes me even more looking at them again is their ridiculous levels of uniformity. Besides their random straps of tattered cloth wrapped around shields and weapons, and antler variants, they have the same helmets, same shoulder guards, same neck cloth, same skirts, same thigh protectors, same belts etcetera etcetera, all worn in the exact same way, aside from the banner guy and left handed warrior who are identical but mirrored. Even the named Warlord leader matches up; only the named shaman looks any different. Seems... very out of place for what they are meant to depict.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/09 13:30:49
Arnor didn't have any models on sale for this entire edition of MESBG but it still had all its rules.
Moria had chunks of its roster missing until about halfway through but still had all the rules.
Kind of puts a hole in the idea that NMNR applies across the board and not just in very rare circumstances.
ZergSmasher wrote: Removing bloat would be difficult because there isn't a whole lot of bloat, other than maybe the different special strikes for different hand weapons, but honestly that adds some flavor so it should at least stay as optional rules or something.
The Noobs and Men youtube channel said they had info that one thing they'll be removing is wargear options rather than units. One example would be Galahdrim Court Guards with shields. So stuff there's no models for and possibly aren't seen in the films.
Unless I'm looking at the wrong book, they only have an option for a banner, no shields. That said...
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Gert wrote: I mean there's been no evidence of it and NMNR doesn't apply to non-core games as has been proven about a billion times by now.
I'm with you on that, but apparently it doesn't stop rumormongers from naming it as literally the only change for the new edition .
...it has already happened in the past, and could theoretically be further restricted in the future depending on their plans for making certain miniatures and willingness to take let other companies fill any gaps. Plus potential considerations of game balance. Minor example: Watchers of Kârna used to have two swords (kinda but not officially resulting in them having 2 attacks), and the option for a bow. That changed to having either two swords (and two attacks), or a sword and a bow. Which happens to match what the official models have. More impactful example: Moria Goblin Prowlers used to have the choice of two-handed weapons, shields, and/or bows. Now, they have no options anymore at all - they just come with two-handed weapons by default, just like the official models do. If you converted dozens of figures for the other weapon options, or bought the alternative models made by other manufacturers that I definitely recall existing, too bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Like quite a few others, I'm not a fan of the Carn Dûm figures, mainly for the antler hats and lazy stereotypical barbarian tropes (bare chest, furry leg-warmers) found in Chaos Marauders and beyond. But what strikes me even more looking at them again is their ridiculous levels of uniformity. Besides their random straps of tattered cloth wrapped around shields and weapons, and antler variants, they have the same helmets, same shoulder guards, same neck cloth, same skirts, same thigh protectors, same belts etcetera etcetera, all worn in the exact same way, aside from the banner guy and left handed warrior who are identical but mirrored. Even the named Warlord leader matches up; only the named shaman looks any different. Seems... very out of place for what they are meant to depict.
As far as i'm aware, there's never been a single description of how the men of Carn Dum actually looked. So barbarian is just as valid as anything else.
Gert wrote: Arnor didn't have any models on sale for this entire edition of MESBG but it still had all its rules.
Moria had chunks of its roster missing until about halfway through but still had all the rules.
Kind of puts a hole in the idea that NMNR applies across the board and not just in very rare circumstances.
Well, I'd say that's a different case than options that never existed as models, like horses for some units or weapons and shields.
Heh. I know the game is based on Weta's designs, but personally I am happy to ignore the ones I don't think fit with Tolkien. Which includes all of the Minas Tirith in plate armour! I think Middle Earth should look like historical figures for the human factions, with some minor differences.
I think the men of Carn Dum particularly grate because they follow the extremely common trope of northen barabarians with frostbite-immune nipples yet a gakton of furs everywhere else. Which is it? Cold or not cold?
For Chaos-tainted Marauders I can accept it, but LotR is a more grounded setting on the whole, at least for humans. Plus that aesthetic is really common, whereas fully clothed northern barbarians are weirdly rare. Pretty much just Frostgrave and historicals.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
I doubt that. All that's going to come from that is characters, there's not much else unit wise the movie could add. And Rohan vs Dunland doesn't make for a very exciting launch.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I doubt that. All that's going to come from that is characters, there's not much else unit wise the movie could add. And Rohan vs Dunland doesn't make for a very exciting launch.
I mean they could actually redo the basic Rohan forces, then do Royal Guard and Dunland in plastic. But we all know that isn't going to happen.
His Master's Voice wrote: Yeah, there's no difference between the Haradrim designs and the Carn Dum stuff.
If you're blind, that is.
The only difference is one (the Warhammer looking one with the ridiculous back banner, I might add) was in the movie so in your mind it's canon and the other one isn't. There's nothing outrageous, stylistically, about Carn Dums. Although I'd agree with the folks saying the sculpts are too uniform.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/08/09 23:05:57
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Da Boss wrote: Heh. I know the game is based on Weta's designs, but personally I am happy to ignore the ones I don't think fit with Tolkien. Which includes all of the Minas Tirith in plate armour! I think Middle Earth should look like historical figures for the human factions, with some minor differences.
I had no idea we had in RL [checks notes] 5673 year old elven craftsmen and dwarves created by literal god of smithing to learn stuff making from. Or, on evil side, literal demigod of smithing even older than said elves who was trying to innovate any advantage for literally millenia. Go figure.
If anything, the 'RL' look is riduculously stupid and 'properly' done Tolkien should approach AoS levels of weird. From different direction, perchaps, but claiming it would have anything in common with medieval times when the culture is drastically different and worst periods of Middle Earth collapse are peanuts to Europe of the time is just silly. For all their faults, Hobbit movies at least tried to give the universe more justice than LotR did, maybe they went in the wrong direction in places but it's still improvement on muh blandrilizm of Gondor and Rohan.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Like quite a few others, I'm not a fan of the Carn Dûm figures, mainly for the antler hats
Why?
If these bother people so much, you can (gasp!) try incredibly difficult maneuver of clipping them off. Novel concept, I know
But what strikes me even more looking at them again is their ridiculous levels of uniformity. Besides their random straps of tattered cloth wrapped around shields and weapons, and antler variants, they have the same helmets, same shoulder guards, same neck cloth, same skirts, same thigh protectors, same belts etcetera etcetera, all worn in the exact same way, aside from the banner guy and left handed warrior who are identical but mirrored. Even the named Warlord leader matches up; only the named shaman looks any different. Seems... very out of place for what they are meant to depict.
Why?
No, seriously, for all the muh rilizm complains people seem to have completely wrong ideas on the past. Manufactures mass producing goods date literally to stone age, never mind famous examples of Ancient Egypt, Greece, or Rome. Then there is factor of not just practicality, but fashion, people wore similar stuff just because they thought it looked nice. They are not nobles or some rich dandies trying to look differently on purpose, they are warriors using most efficient gear they have on hand.
Especially seeing they are also an army organized by above demigod of smithing and his chief lackey, people who would organize supply of gear to their soldiers while wasting no time customizing it. If anything, you'd expect even more standarization, stopped only by the fact of their extreme remoteness to the main industry base in Mordor. Do you complain about Roman swords and armor being identical? If not, why, Roman army was organized by far less controlling and micromanaging bosses and yet somehow they did manage it...
Da Boss wrote: Heh. I know the game is based on Weta's designs, but personally I am happy to ignore the ones I don't think fit with Tolkien. Which includes all of the Minas Tirith in plate armour! I think Middle Earth should look like historical figures for the human factions, with some minor differences.
I had no idea we had in RL [checks notes] 5673 year old elven craftsmen and dwarves created by literal god of smithing to learn stuff making from. Or, on evil side, literal demigod of smithing even older than said elves who was trying to innovate any advantage for literally millenia. Go figure.
If anything, the 'RL' look is riduculously stupid and 'properly' done Tolkien should approach AoS levels of weird. From different direction, perchaps, but claiming it would have anything in common with medieval times when the culture is drastically different and worst periods of Middle Earth collapse are peanuts to Europe of the time is just silly. For all their faults, Hobbit movies at least tried to give the universe more justice than LotR did, maybe they went in the wrong direction in places but it's still improvement on muh blandrilizm of Gondor and Rohan.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: But what strikes me even more looking at them again is their ridiculous levels of uniformity. Besides their random straps of tattered cloth wrapped around shields and weapons, and antler variants, they have the same helmets, same shoulder guards, same neck cloth, same skirts, same thigh protectors, same belts etcetera etcetera, all worn in the exact same way, aside from the banner guy and left handed warrior who are identical but mirrored. Even the named Warlord leader matches up; only the named shaman looks any different. Seems... very out of place for what they are meant to depict.
Why?
No, seriously, for all the muh rilizm complains people seem to have completely wrong ideas on the past. Manufactures mass producing goods date literally to stone age, never mind famous examples of Ancient Egypt, Greece, or Rome. Then there is factor of not just practicality, but fashion, people wore similar stuff just because they thought it looked nice. They are not nobles or some rich dandies trying to look differently on purpose, they are warriors using most efficient gear they have on hand.
Especially seeing they are also an army organized by above demigod of smithing and his chief lackey, people who would organize supply of gear to their soldiers while wasting no time customizing it. If anything, you'd expect even more standarization, stopped only by the fact of their extreme remoteness to the main industry base in Mordor.
Do you complain about Roman swords and armor being identical? If not, why, Roman army was organized by far less controlling and micromanaging bosses and yet somehow they did manage it...
Erm... even based on the rather limited knowledge we have on Romans (and even less for many other tribes and cultures), there was quite a bit of variation at any one time, with e.g. older and newer helmet styles and variants of body armour around at the same time based on archeological finds, not even counting the more ritualistic variation with several command staff wearing quite different gear again.
Every single dude in the Carn Dûm army having the exact same gear to me gives the impression they have no history, no tradition, no culture. They don't have individual characteristics, while for instance showing off personal feats of arms is an extremely common feature in warrior-societies. They have no gear passed down generations, even their leader has nothing setting them apart from any others. In a tribe of 10 people, I would not expect all of them to wear the literal exact same clothing, and presumably the clan is a tad bigger than that. If armed by the Witch-king, I don't see why the helmets (even ignoring the subsequently attached antlers) would be so ornate, or would not resemble the Orcs' gear more (which would actually be an interesting and thematic look: tribal humans with scraps of Orc gear). Extreme uniformity works for Isengard's Uruk-hai, which look brutal, industrial, because the point is that their whole army was created in one place, from scratch, in a short period of time. Perhaps acceptable in other organized nations with central manufacturing and distribution of weaponry, like Gondor. Entirely logically absent elsewhere, like Rohan, Dwarves (Durin's Folk plastics), Harad. Here, it's just a lazy design brief of "barbarian" executed lazily. I'm not even claiming they're AoS sculpts, because at least most of those have some elements that make them feel like Warhammer sculpts (the Carn Dûm figures could have been released by dozens of companies for dozens of miniature lines, they are terribly generic barbarian sculpts), and at least the Darkoath Marauders aren't effectively clones of each other.
Like quite a few others, I'm not a fan of the Carn Dûm figures, mainly for the antler hats
If these bother people so much, you can (gasp!) try incredibly difficult maneuver of clipping them off. Novel concept, I know
Why the f would you even imagine I would buy some overpriced FW miniatures I dislike almost every square millimetre of, to then having to modify them to actually look less awful?
Well, at least one good thing came from this: I'm now quite keen on converting some human figures with Orc bits as a potential alternative to this lot. Oathmark Orcs and Frostgrave Barbarians might be a good starting point, or historicals for the humans if going for a less fantasy look... Hmm...
.
