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 lord_blackfang wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Yeah, there's no difference between the Haradrim designs and the Carn Dum stuff.

If you're blind, that is.

The only difference is one (the Warhammer looking one with the ridiculous back banner, I might add) was in the movie so in your mind it's canon and the other one isn't. There's nothing outrageous, stylistically, about Carn Dums. Although I'd agree with the folks saying the sculpts are too uniform.

The Haradrim designs are obviously based on a stereotype, but they have a design much more consistent with the climate they hail from. If you look at the model range, only the camel riders even have much exposed flesh despite coming from a hot desert region.

The Carn Dum models hace nice, warm clothing appropriate to their northern, mountainous home... except over most of their torsos. Why? How does that make sense? Do their nipples have magical frostbite protection? I'd actually prefer it if they were less clothed and more Conan-esque, because at least being almost entirely naked suggests a complete disregard for the cold of their homeland, rather than mostly dressing up nice and warm except for their core! It isn't about the decoration, they just look inconsistent.

There are details I actually really like, like the mace looking aesthetically like the weapon of the Witch King. But the core models are just a let down.

The Carn Dum guys have obviously been given uniform gear by purpose, they even have the exact same beard.
There are loads of good reasons for this. For example it might just be a way for them to honor and show loyalty to a powerfull warlord they follow and wear his symbols with pride. Or psychological warfar when the opponents instantly recognise them as servants of the witch king (and who knows, it might be easier to point out to the orcs not to kill the guys with antlers).

 Da Boss wrote:
Tolkien never describes any character as wearing plate armour in the books only ever mail. But go off if you like irbis, it is always funny to read.

Not 100% true. There is a passage (I'd need to remind myself where) where he does use the word plate in relation to Gondor. But it's been a debated subject for years.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There's nothing outrageous, stylistically, about Carn Dums.

They're half naked mountain men with horns on their helmets. They're entirely outrageous by the standards set out by Jackson's depiction of LotR, especially since we already have Wildmen and Dunlendings.

And even if you're willing to gloss over the outlandish design, the technical execution makes them look out of place even next to the Easterlings, who are themselves fairly out there in terms of human design.

 Irbis wrote:


If anything, the 'RL' look is riduculously stupid and 'properly' done Tolkien should approach AoS levels of weird.

You sound like a Rings of Power writer.

I really don't think they're that worth getting worked up over. They're certainly no more outlandish than the wildmen of druadan walking around with grass skirts and blowpipes.

I believe the passage you are referring to is Imrahil using Eowyn's breath misting hia vambrace to show she is still alive. A vambrace is a metal arm guard, but does not imply that Imrahil is wearing full plate armour - it would be fully believable that he has a chain hauberk on and some extra arnour on hie arms.

That sounds like the spot. But again, it's one of those things that because it's there, there's always a possibility that they did actually have it. It's like the Balrog with wings debate. It will always be argued on both sides with no one ever getting a true answer.

Ah, the Balrog. I really hope they resculpt a plastic Dweller in the Dark kit, as that guy deserves some real lackies to hang with. The Goblins just get under his feet...

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That sounds like the spot. But again, it's one of those things that because it's there, there's always a possibility that they did actually have it. It's like the Balrog with wings debate. It will always be argued on both sides with no one ever getting a true answer.

I will cede that point! But I am happier with an aesthetic that is closer to the Dark Ages, because that is what I imagined when reading the books as a child. Which I suppose is no issue at all - there is a wealth of Dark Ages and Early Medieval kits to choose from these days, and nice and cheap too. And people who prefer the more fantastical or weta-inspired designs have their choices too.

We're lucky to live in such a great time for collecting miniatures!

I had also the impression that Numenorians look like Classic Imperial Romans, while Gondor and Arnor should look like Late (Antiquity) Romans, with Rohan as (Eastern) Germanic People aesthetic, in Goth or Vandal fashion.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
They're half naked mountain men with horns on their helmets. They're entirely outrageous by the standards set out by Jackson's depiction of LotR,

And you're entirely certain that you've seen Jackson's films?

The Mahud wears armour reminiscent of real life straw or rattan woven armours, or the Greek linothorax. The design is cranked up to underscore its foreign nature, but it isn't absurd.

Wearing iron helmets and pants while skipping on any chest protection is absurd. The only other combatant we see doing this in Jackson's LotR are the Uruk Berserkers, and they're barely sentient lunatics, not an actual culture of people that should know better.

There are definitely fantasy looking guys in the LotR films but the Carn Dum guys really lean on the Warcraft-styled proportioning and nonsense leather armour.
The mahud at least is simply a bannerman dedicated to riding the oliphaunt, so the back banner isn't too much of a hindrance, and the armour looks like a fantasy interpretation of something plausible.

Part of the reason I enjoy the film's aesthetic is that it's got a lot of historical and real world inspirations in the equipment. The fantasy comes from the anachronistic flairs that come together to make the costuming, and there aren't many fantasy settings that do this. Maybe the ASOIAF TV series also.

Contrast this to how easy it is to find pauldron-fetish and muscley barbarian fantasy settings I think it's a nice change of pace to a lot of alternatives. I'm more impressed when someone makes a swish looking plausible set of armaments than another super detailed thing mashed together.

Shout out to Dark Souls/Elden Ring for showing a nice example of doing their own thing, with some allowances such as...gigantic weapons. And a lot of the stuff in the Witcher games is great too.

Carn Dum is basically fantasy celtic aesthetics. bare chests despite living a cool temperate climate? Celts. bare chests yet wears helmets and bits of armor? yep. fur cloaks? not as common IRL but definitely attested to. antlers? not in combat IRL but attested to for some of the ceremonial garb. (bare chests or even outright nudity in battle was something they did to signal their bravery and toughness)

and the celtic aesthetic is a good place as a start given that the native culture of Eriador is heavily Celtic coded in all the bits we see. "carn Dum" seems to be derived from old Gealic words for "mountain fortress", lots of other palce names in Eriador are of celtic origins, their barrow Mounds are basically those of the celtic britons, the description of their history as given by Bombadil is basically that of the bronze age and iron age celtic cultures.


it's also a good choice given that the peter jackson version of Numenorian aesthetics is heavily Roman, making Arnor a thematic analog to Roman Brittania in much the same way that Gondor was the thematic analog to the Byzantine Empire.

just no
yeah celts had some odd ways, like going completely naked painted white with the hair up to scare opponents, but those still used big shields which was the main armour of that time, and this was only one state/tribe located in today Turkey (so much for the climate)

and yes, there are descriptions of bare chests celts fighting the romans but still wearing a wool cloak (and a big shield in battle) because of the climate

and mail was never the primary armour, it was a back up for everything that passes past the shields (usually the pointy stuff, hence mail because this helps there the most) and everyone used a larger shield to fight (they became smaller over time the better the body armour became, and were gone once full plate armour replaced them)
so going without body armour but just the shield was common, fighting naked not so much outside the hot climates

Carn Drum is not fantasy celtic, this is fantasy Stone-Age or what Hollywood think the Stone Age was (which for some reason must have lasted till 1500 in Europe on how movies portray the "Barbarians") or Conan the Barbarian style fantasy but nothing related to history

SamusDrake wrote:
Just wondering if War of the Rohirrim might be a separate game, being anime in style. Maybe a board game?

I don't know if this was answered in amongst all the arguing about armour, but GW have said on FB that the style will match the current miniatures. So it'll just be the characters / units from the film added to what we have already

Vorian wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
Just wondering if War of the Rohirrim might be a separate game, being anime in style. Maybe a board game?

I don't know if this was answered in amongst all the arguing about armour, but GW have said on FB that the style will match the current miniatures. So it'll just be the characters / units from the film added to what we have already

Oh, I see. It'll be interesting to see the difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Releasing a Hobbit game....

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/11/sunday-preview-don-your-hunting-rig-and-enter-hive-secundus/

Oh no, another terrible duck game...

Hmmmm, I'm a bit put out for having the newest version of the rule book outdated already, but I'll accept that as the price to pay for a new edition and hopefully the renewed interest it brings both from GW and the player base.

Plus a new starter box means new plastics! If GW wants this to be a headline release I'd expect them all to be new (Rob has already confirmed on FB that the style will match the current GW models) which is a good excuse for updated Rohan models and new Dunland. Hopefully enough for Dunland to be a full stand alone faction. Worst case we get a box with the old Rohan models and new Dunland stuff, as GW would never do a starter box with resin models.

Jay has also hinted on FB that the new edition is more about "improvement and clarity" so shouldn't include major changes. Both Rob and Jay love the game and as extremely active in the UK scene, so I think its in safe hands. I'd like to see the less used heroic actions reworked, monsters buffed and all the scenarios refreshed. Will be interesting to see what happens LL with the new armies of... books. Maybe time for a clean slate for them all?

As for Angmar, love all the new sculpts except the new darkoath, sorry Carn Dum warriors, who as many have already said, look like they walked in from a different game with a lazy fantasy trope design. As the whole Angmar release cycle was probably meant for 2023, the new supplement is unlikely to be compatible with the new edition. Only buy it if you want the scenarios!

 Fergie0044 wrote:
Rob has already confirmed on FB that the style will match the current GW models

Well, that could be good, if they're like some of the newer plastic characters, or bad, if they're like the Carn Dum.

you could also read that as there won't be new plastic outside new heroes for them

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men_of_Carn_D%C3%BBm

The Men of Carn Dum seem to be done using the game "The Lord of the Rings: War in the North" designs.

I hadn't heard of it, but its from 2011.

But that's irrelevant to my own dislike.
The models look like clones.
The same exact mannequin put into different poses, with pieces of equipment mirrored across bodies.
The only details that actually change are the ragged edge of some, but not all, cloth, and the helmet antlers look to have a couple variations.
They feel like some of the early single or two-part plastics from the 90's.

Huh, that is actually quite interesting, hadn't expected that was the origin of much of the design.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Huh, that is actually quite interesting, hadn't expected that was the origin of much of the design.

Chances are the guy that was tasked to model these miniatures read the exact article for an inspiration

The Carn Dum Men don't really do it for me the reasons mentioned above, but I am really hoping the new edition will see some more new plastic units released. I imagine characters probably sell better and don't irritate people who already have old minis, but I'd really like to see some old units move into plastic.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Chances are the guy that was tasked to model these miniatures read the exact article for an inspiration

I think it's more likely the design was okayed by the licence holder at the time the game was being made and was subsequently given to GW when they asked about doing Angmar content.

Longstrider wrote:
The Carn Dum Men don't really do it for me the reasons mentioned above, but I am really hoping the new edition will see some more new plastic units released. I imagine characters probably sell better and don't irritate people who already have old minis, but I'd really like to see some old units move into plastic.

Which old units do you refer to? Majority of the unders are plastic. And most of then fine plastic.

The only units I can think if that NEED plastics are the Finecast Gundabad Orc and Mirkwood Armoured Elves.

If they do more plastic kits I hope it's replacing the garbage Finecast Commands and Characters.


Also, the Carn Dum Men scream FW resin to me.

Last Alliance Numenoreans and Rivendelf spears mainly. But Dunlendings or Wildmen, Laketown or Dale Men, aforementioned Orcs from Gundabad and Mirkwood Elves, Iron Hills Dwarves, Men of Khand, Mahuds... there's others but they get more elite or more scenario-fodder-y.

But I imagine they'd want to stick to movie stuff more than their own concepts, and also I gather that most people are interested in named characters and unique rules rather than nameless warriors and captains, so I get the focus on stuff that'll sell better than my proclivities.

Plastic Dunlendings are quite likely for the new film/starter set, if thats the way GW takes the new edition.

If the game gains popularity again I can see some of the Hobbit film finecast warriors being done in plastic to make them more accessible. But the reason they were done in finecast in the first place was the lacklustre performance of the MESBG following the second and third films.

Plastic Khand and Far Harad is a pipe dream.

I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking elite, non-movie units.

Anything is possible but I highly doubt those more elite units will get plastics. I would bet redone FW models before plastics are more likely, like they did with the Dol Amroth Knights.

We have had years of hardly any release so I'm happy to hear what they do with the game and will be haply with whatever they release.

It would be nice to see them redo any and all Finecast models first and foremost.