Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are any of the marketed chapter armies actually codex compliant, except the UM? Practically everything I read about each chapter explains what RG codex was and that the chapter in question is secretly a bit naughty and has done their own thing, hopefully no one finds out

mrFickle wrote:
Are any of the marketed chapter armies actually codex compliant, except the UM?

Yes - in that they're not 100,000 strong with their own battlefleets and supporting Army / Guard regiments. While the First Founding Chapters have some leeway, most do not (look at the Astral Claws, for example).

Codex compliant is strict adherence to 1000 marines 10 divisions x amount of tactical squads, devestator, assault and so on. This structure was quite clear in the past and I’ll see if I can find my old codexes but I’m sure they sued to declare the numbers within the death guard and Ravenwing for example. Now it’s always the true numbers are kept secret.

RG has screwed his own design with the Primaris anyway. Those units aren’t in the codex design that is supposed to apply to all chapters

mrFickle wrote:
Codex compliant is strict adherence to 1000 marines 10 divisions x amount of tactical squads, devestator, assault and so on. This structure was quite clear in the past and I’ll see if I can find my old codexes but I’m sure they sued to declare the numbers within the death guard and Ravenwing for example. Now it’s always the true numbers are kept secret.

RG has screwed his own design with the Primaris anyway. Those units aren’t in the codex design that is supposed to apply to all chapters

You realize that by this particularly narrow interpretation, there are zero "codex compliant" chapters right?

The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists have always been Codex compliant unless that has been retconned in more recent literature.

It is a shame that Codex compliant chapters don't get more attention though, I think it's cool that many marines are hidebound traditionalists who fight in this ritualised way.

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Codex compliant is strict adherence to 1000 marines 10 divisions x amount of tactical squads, devestator, assault and so on. This structure was quite clear in the past and I’ll see if I can find my old codexes but I’m sure they sued to declare the numbers within the death guard and Ravenwing for example. Now it’s always the true numbers are kept secret.

RG has screwed his own design with the Primaris anyway. Those units aren’t in the codex design that is supposed to apply to all chapters

You realize that by this particularly narrow interpretation, there are zero "codex compliant" chapters right?

That’s is my perception now. no one is complaint in any of the fluff I read, to the point where I think the idea of pointing out that codex non compliance is now redundant. So I am asking the question. I have attached a photo of what I have always considered to be compliant although I believe this may be old school

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Codex compliant is strict adherence to 1000 marines 10 divisions x amount of tactical squads, devestator, assault and so on. This structure was quite clear in the past and I’ll see if I can find my old codexes but I’m sure they sued to declare the numbers within the death guard and Ravenwing for example. Now it’s always the true numbers are kept secret.

RG has screwed his own design with the Primaris anyway. Those units aren’t in the codex design that is supposed to apply to all chapters

You realize that by this particularly narrow interpretation, there are zero "codex compliant" chapters right?

While there are probably not any Chapters that are 100% compliant, I'm sure there's a few that at least make a noticeable effort to try to be compliant. After all the Codex Astartes is not hard and fast law, more like guidelines really.

Like many 'rules' in the Imperium; so long as you fight in pro-Imperial actions, don't try to form your own empire and generally appear to be loyal, there's much bending allowed in practice - if not on paper.

Until it suits someone to point out you are a heretic and have your chapter wiped from existence and history.

I thought that the point do the codex was to be highly prescriptive and protect the imperium from another space marine rebellion by keeping forces to a max of 1000. Thus your DA or BA army was was a bit special and more interesting because it had got away with some deviation.

I remember people would start a building an army and would buy all the minis to make it exactly match the number laid out in the chapter description or the standard codex above

mrFickle wrote:
Until it suits someone to point out you are a heretic and have your chapter wiped from existence and history.

Congratulations, you just started the second Heresy, except this time you've made *every* Astartes an enemy.

mrFickle wrote:


I thought that the point do the codex was to be highly prescriptive and protect the imperium from another space marine rebellion by keeping forces to a max of 1000. Thus your DA or BA army was was a bit special and more interesting because it had got away with some deviation.

You thought wrong. The codex has never been a binary binding construct to the degree you desire.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kcalehc wrote:


While there are probably not any Chapters that are 100% compliant, I'm sure there's a few that at least make a noticeable effort to try to be compliant. After all the Codex Astartes is not hard and fast law, more like guidelines really.

Oh I dont disagree at all, and would further point out that even within a single Chapter there will be varying views on the text (Titus and Leandros anyone?). My statement was aimed towards the inaccurate portrayal of the codex as some kind of immutable template from which all marine Chapters must be built, upon pain of death.

it's worth noting that the orginization listing supplied never has any listing of a set number for the scout company. (nor for chapter support) primaris don't really screw it up eaither as they fall under battleline, close support or heavy support, which is more formalizing something that's been defacto for marines for awhile

With the exception of the second company, the Dark Angels are codex compliant. The first company being equipped entirely with terminator armor is not a deviation from the codex; it's simply a luxury which their vast amounts of ancient tech affords them.

Granted, they are often accused of legion building...

Notably, most chapters are compliant. There's a relative handful of named and important ones that aren't, and several of those are in the Codex Marines Codex.

Notably non-compliant:
Space Woofs
Black Templars
Salamanders (7 oversized companies)
Dark Angels (yes, ravenwing counts)

Notable Compliant:
the rest in the Codex book, including White Scars, despite how they're portrayed about bikes all the time.
Blood Angels (death company are effectively pre-battle casualties when they happen, that they're still moving and fighting is a technicality)

Times it actually matters: zero. Background TOE really has no effect on the forces fielded on the tabletop. The codex doesn't even make sense give the way the armies are fielded, as no one treats almost half their standing force as 'reserves' and they're almost never deployed as all tactical, all assault or all devastator squads, because that would be senseless and insane.

Can’t remember if it was Black Library or someone’s fanfic but I remember reading that Bobby G pointed out recently that the Codex was meant to be a guideline in military action with a stricter demand on numbers - the Space Wolves got the dodge because between the Wolves being dropped below 1000 after the Siege of Terra, the epic failure that was the Wolf Brothers and the Wolves themselves being suicidal enough to keep their numbers low Guiliman turned a blind eye to them.

I have actual quotes from GW. There are only 100-300 codex compliant chapters, and being “codex compliant” does not mean they follow that chart posted in this thread. You can have seven battle companies and one reserve company, the veteran company can be company number five, and the battle companies can have five tactical squads and three assault squads while still being considered codex.

whats your source for that because I suspect it's old and largely out dated. Also the codex chapter in that case likely means a chapter that doesn't have ANY alterations at all. So a chapter that say... calls their libarians druids and has them play a ceremonial and religious role, might not be deemed codex compliant, even though they effectively might as well be

At that point it seems easier to list the chapters that really deviate from the codex. Most of the chapters called non-compliant look like they've changed one or two details that don't really make a significant difference, like having a company dedicated to their favorite form of warfare or having their chaplains also be their apothecaries or something.

 Tiennos wrote:
At that point it seems easier to list the chapters that really deviate from the codex. Most of the chapters called non-compliant look like they've changed one or two details that don't really make a significant difference, like having a company dedicated to their favorite form of warfare or having their chaplains also be their apothecaries or something.

Yeah - Iron Hands used to be deviants, with each Clan-Company being independent of the others and containing everything from Veterans to Scouts, but they've be re-conned to be more normal with Clan Avernii becoming the Veteran 1st Company and Clan Dorrvok becoming the 10th Scout Company.

thign is it's EASIER to set up a codex and say "chapters mostly follow these guidelines" it's a nice and easy collection/army framework. this is one area where, the changes to the codex with 8th edition and primaris marines really boost this. you can now build a codex compliant company that's fairly personalized in terms of it's units.

mrFickle wrote:
Codex compliant is strict adherence to 1000 marines 10 divisions x amount of tactical squads, devestator, assault and so on. This structure was quite clear in the past and I’ll see if I can find my old codexes but I’m sure they sued to declare the numbers within the death guard and Ravenwing for example. Now it’s always the true numbers are kept secret.

RG has screwed his own design with the Primaris anyway. Those units aren’t in the codex design that is supposed to apply to all chapters

The codex is a massive compendium of tactics, strategy and organisational knowledge. The 1000 marines and company structure is only one small fragment of the Codex. And in case you are wondering, that has also been changed since the return of Guilliman - Battle Companies can carry up to 20 squads now, and the 11-20 are seconded from reserve companies. Plus, no chapter is strictly codex compliament as all deviate in some way from the explicit word of the book, and are, in most cases, fine because they Codex is a suggestion and helpguide on warfare from one of the greatest minds in history. its not a strict ABC on how to be a space marine.

I'm sure part of the allegations of codex non-compliance are just heretics (or heresy sympathizers) looking for a way to rile up the poor loyalists.

Disclaimer: The Rubicon Primaris is actually a Chaos plot to undermine the Imperium using an imposter pretending to be a reborn Guilliman. What else could possibly explain someone in the Imperium deciding that a sacred tradition (as all traditions are sacred) should be changed?

With the exception of the Space Wolves

They all are - mostly - each has a few unique twists, styles and consmetic differences but otherwise compliant.

Even the UM had adpated the Codex somewhat

Codex compliance is the in-universe version of the RAW vs RAI discussion.

 Mr Morden wrote:
With the exception of the Space Wolves

And the Black Templars. As of Faith and Fury, each BT crusade is the size of several Codex chapters. That's a pretty serious deviation in itself.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
With the exception of the Space Wolves

And the Black Templars. As of Faith and Fury, each BT crusade is the size of several Codex chapters. That's a pretty serious deviation in itself.

Good point - I had not got that book so was not aware they had reverted to the older (superior) lore

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
With the exception of the Space Wolves

And the Black Templars. As of Faith and Fury, each BT crusade is the size of several Codex chapters. That's a pretty serious deviation in itself.

Isn’t there a loophole specifically for crusading chapters? (Idk if this has been changed now)

DalekCheese wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
With the exception of the Space Wolves

And the Black Templars. As of Faith and Fury, each BT crusade is the size of several Codex chapters. That's a pretty serious deviation in itself.

Isn’t there a loophole specifically for crusading chapters? (Idk if this has been changed now)

I’m pretty sure there is unless retconned. While actively on crusade you could recruit up as needs dictated. The assumption was you would fall back to normal numbers at the end of the campaign. Of course, the BT never stop...

 Nevelon wrote:
While actively on crusade you could recruit up as needs dictated. The assumption was you would fall back to normal numbers at the end of the campaign. Of course, the BT never stop...

But they also split up, sending part of the force off to continue the Crusade while some stay to secure the newly re-conquered planet and set up a recruiting mission. If the leader sees more targets than one he can order the force split up further so they can hit all targets at once. An individual Crusade is probably also not over Codex limits - there's severe losses on campaign as veterans drag their initiates into the thick of the fight to teach them proper crusading stuff.

The only way the Black Templars could appear as an over-strength Chapter would be if they recalled all Crusades to some central meeting point, but they're far too busy crusading to do that. And as long as they do the Emperor's good work no one important is going to comment on it.

I've said it elsewhere, but the '1000' marines figure doesn't actually account for the total number of astartes actually present in a full strength codex compliant chapter.

If we are generous and say the scout company doesn't count, you're still left with nine companies consisting of ten ten man squads each, plus at least one man for each vehicle in the motor pool, plus captain, chaplain, apothecary, and whatever broad role accounts for the standard bearer, lieutenant, etc. On top of that you have the overall command of the chapter, including the chapter master himself, the specialist senior officers (such as master of the fleet) which may or not also be captains of specific companies, the master's of the forge, apothecarium, and the entire librarius.

Assuming the extremely variable entries are at the bare minimum, that's at least 1025+ marines.

Whereas if we count the ten squads of ten scouts and don't count the command and ancillary staff that are technically astartes, you get the nice round 1000.

Now, yes. The codex has been described as a fairly comprehensive treatise on pretty much everything the Astartes do. But the ones who employ it most successfully (and ultimately rise in rank) are the ones who take to heart the fact that (as evidently stated in the codex itself!) it is still a book of generally successful tactics and it's up to the reader's discretion on how they apply it or if it's not applicable.

This results in stuff like the Imperial Fists being described as a stringently codex compliant chapter* despite the fact that they clearly don't adhere to it as fanatically as the Praetors of Orpheus.

(*Not counting the whole 'in case of emergency, form legion' clause they have.)

I thought SM often employed servitors to drive vehicles

mrFickle wrote:
I thought SM often employed servitors to drive vehicles

Thats one of the tasks of a Techmarine.