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A few years back several of the major UK supermarkets got caught fixing prices on milk products - raising the price to the customer and lowering the price they paid to producers. It only worked because there's only a few major names in the business and once your farmer is producing in large volumes they are tied into the business model that can only sell to major purchasers.

It's illegal, but at the same time very profitable for the supermarkets and very hard to prove/catch them in the act.


Sometimes the consumer isn't the issue, its the middleman in the whole system that can cause problems.




In theory developed countries should use farming subsidies to allow for lower food prices at the till so that farmers can be paid less directly, but then subsidised so that they earn a more modern wage. That way you keep the system working rather than have higher food costs which impacts on purchasing habits of the population. In short they'd rather you were buying products than food with your money.

Of course these things are insanely complicated in knock on effects and influences.








As for Corona and travel I'm not surprised that the EU is blocking the US travel. Time will come that nations in general will block Corona heavy nations - heck New Zealand already has fresh cases which were directly attributed to a couple from the UK travelling there and getting out of quarantine early (though my impression of further details of that case is that they didn't spread infection and travelled in a safe manner to prevent infectious spread).


Moving forward I can see a point in the future where the USA won't be alone - I can imagine other hot-bed countries like the UK etc.... will also have sanctions against travel from those nations - at least until Corona cases in those nations are heavily curtailed.

But we are still part of that issue as we choose to still shop there (and I did mention supermarkets in my first post). There's actually enough choice in the UK to no longer need to shop at some supermarkets (Tesco being one of the worst for bullying practices with producers).

Perspective...
For countries with a significant population (not Andorra or SAn Marino etc)

The worst affected country in the world is Chile with 1.4% of the population having had the virus.
USA is second with 0.72% of the population infected.

For a supposedly rampant pandemic this is spectacularly weak given it has been spreading since late December or early January.

It's weak because of lockdown measures in most countries. Even without lockdowns there's an increase of hand washing, mask use, social distancing etc...

Even with all those measures its still hung around since it began.

You only need one person to enter a dense population like a train, nightclub, factory workspace etc... and it can spread to many of those present. They then take it home and their kids take it to school and then they take it home. All easily done in a few days to a week before the first person even knows they had it to start social isolation.


Sure if we let it run rampant without any measures it would have spread FAR faster and further through the population. If you consider that most countries have seen intensive care units overwhelmed or at least put right to their limits; then imagine if it had been let to run rampant without any limits.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The super markets and us as consumers are to blame also though... How much money can these people be paid when the cost of purchase is driven right down to just above the overheads.

Food should be more expensive if you want high standards, if you don't want to pay more, you are part of the problem yourself.

Of course. This is incredibly difficult from the consumer point of view though, because shopping responsibly is a figurative minefield. Even all those responsible labels and stickers aren't always entirely truthful, some being just industry powered to give the impression something is done instead of actually doing something. Plus the fact that food corporations and such are absolutely massive, while one branch might be doing well and acting responsible, the other branch might be gak. But even if you avoid buying the bad brand, the good brand's money still flows to the same corporation at the top.


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 Overread wrote:
It's weak because of lockdown measures in most countries. Even without lockdowns there's an increase of hand washing, mask use, social distancing etc...

Additionally, those are numbers that we know of. That number is probably far bigger given that testing is only now really ramping up to a good level in most countries. 4 months after it broke out. Those official percentages hide a lot of statistical sorcery.

Well, in my building we finally got our first confirmed case of Covid-19.
And what is management's response? Close the building for a day or two to do a deep clean?
Nope, none of that.
Instead, they're finally going to actually enforce the agency's rules that have been in place for awhile now that they haven't been bothering to enforce all this time. Make people wear masks when away from their desks, do a temperature check before coming into the building, actually mark off some of the tables in the breakroom as off-limits, etc. To use the same word's from our building's boss "we're going to change the 'should' guidelines to 'must' rules". Even though those "guidelines" were, in fact, required rules all this time.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Well, in my building we finally got our first confirmed case of Covid-19.
And what is management's response? Close the building for a day or two to do a deep clean?
Nope, none of that.
Instead, they're finally going to actually enforce the agency's rules that have been in place for awhile now that they haven't been bothering to enforce all this time. Make people wear masks when away from their desks, do a temperature check before coming into the building, actually mark off some of the tables in the breakroom as off-limits, etc. To use the same word's from our building's boss "we're going to change the 'should' guidelines to 'must' rules". Even though those "guidelines" were, in fact, required rules all this time.

That is how much of the RED States in the US have handled it as well.

As cases are rising in my area, mask use is requested, as is social distancing, etc.

Uk Govt. guidelines

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5eb96e8e86650c278b077616/Keeping-workers-and-customers-safe-during-covid-19-restaurants-pubs-bars-takeaways-230620.pdf

The opening up of the economy following the COVID-19 outbreak is being supported by NHS Test and
Trace. You should assist this service by keeping a temporary record of your customers and visitors for
21 days, in a way that is manageable for your business, and assist NHS Test and Trace with requests
for that data if needed. This could help contain clusters or outbreaks. Many businesses that take
bookings already have systems for recording their customers and visitors – including restaurants,
hotels, and hair salons. If you do not already do this, you should do so to help fight the virus. We will
work with industry and relevant bodies to design this system in line with data protection legislation, and
set out details shortly.

uh huh, that'll be fine eh ?

We will
work with industry and relevant bodies to design this system in line with data protection legislation, and
set out details shortly

given the dates does this seem likely/plausible ?

I guess we throw another XX million to another one of Cummings mates before then perhaps ?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Of course. This is incredibly difficult from the consumer point of view though, because shopping responsibly is a figurative minefield. Even all those responsible labels and stickers aren't always entirely truthful, some being just industry powered to give the impression something is done instead of actually doing something. Plus the fact that food corporations and such are absolutely massive, while one branch might be doing well and acting responsible, the other branch might be gak. But even if you avoid buying the bad brand, the good brand's money still flows to the same corporation at the top.

Well, I have been considering buying more of my groceries directly off the farmer where and when possible. There's a number of farms around here where you can. Bread I already go to an actual baker for rather than supermarket stuff; it's expensive but oh so much better.

Meat is more difficult though - not a whole lot of farmers kill their own pigs anymore. Still, getting it off an actual butcher rather than a supermarket should help.

 Matt Swain wrote:
There was a low budget scifi comedy called "Galaxina" made along time ago in which a character says "I'm always right and no one ever listens to me."

I just couldn't help thinking of that line and how many scientists and epidemiologists must be feeling that way now.

So Cassandra?

Quality food is taking a bad hit. I do free range corn fed chickens and orders have collapsed. Usually I do 30000 birds every 8 weeks but last cycle I had to lie out for 4 weeks as there was such poor demand. Indoor fast grown birds are selling really well those guys are turning cycles in around 10 days. I’m back in now but if I have another month sit out next crop it’s going to start to make the farm sweat.
Another interesting one that I hadn’t thought about was wool. After shearing this year I rang the depot and they told me there was just no market at all. Nothing. That depot alone still have 750 ton sitting from last year. The wool usually gets shipped to India and China throughout the year to be made into clothes to then be shipped back to the west. (get that for environmental stewardship) But due to the garment trade all but stopping wool has stoped completely. In fairness it’s pretty worthless most years so I’m not waiting on the money but this year it’s likely to end up as a disposal cost.

We had another death today, which while unfortunate was our first in a while. And we’ve had no new cases in a while either. The second wave is still the danger but I’m feeling cautiously optimistic.

I'd feel more optimistic if we had a working track and trace system and app. At least then there would be potential to identify and shut down local spread at an effective rate. I'm just not sure right now if we've got that system good enough to correspond to the relaxed lockdown measures.

Heck the other day they were saying something like 15-20%* of those who recover might well have lifelong lung damage as a result. Granted with better understanding and drugs we might reduce that value, but that's still a scary value.



*going from memory here - though I think that was the value the news agent said; the doctor they interviewed then bumped it up to his local impression being closer to 35%

 Knockagh wrote:
Quality food is taking a bad hit. I do free range corn fed chickens and orders have collapsed. Usually I do 30000 birds every 8 weeks but last cycle I had to lie out for 4 weeks as there was such poor demand. Indoor fast grown birds are selling really well those guys are turning cycles in around 10 days. I’m back in now but if I have another month sit out next crop it’s going to start to make the farm sweat...

Is that due to restaurant drop in demand?


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 Overread wrote:
I'd feel more optimistic if we had a working track and trace system and app. At least then there would be potential to identify and shut down local spread at an effective rate. I'm just not sure right now if we've got that system good enough to correspond to the relaxed lockdown measures.....

I'm not even sure how a localised Lock down will work tbh. The logistics when you start to look at it are mind boggling, coupled with the reopening of virtually everything and the seeming free for all in relaxation of rules and a reliance on "common sense", alongside willful obstructionism and beligerence means that we may as well just feth it all off.

Great news for the "libertarians" amongst us, but not so great for everyone else. I mean even the sheltered are being encouraged to join in. For some it's tantamount to a death sentence.


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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
...A little annoyed that the tattoo shops have been given no direction as to when they can re-open though.

Considering the levels of PPE and fluid protection regimes in place already in these places I'm inclined to agree, but then the Govts relaxation priorities and guidelines don't seem to stand up to much scrutiny anyway.

It continues to be a confusing, illogical shambles. It genuinely feels like this is what it must feel like to live inside Johnson's head.

Well on my personal covid front I had a surprise today.

(First I do live in america, even tho I really feel like moving to western europe,. I use a proxy for personal security. I don't want my home attacked by extremists.)

I went to my local CVS to pick up prescriptions for a relative and yes they require masks and distancing. They have clear shields at the counter.

I stated the name of the person I was picking up for (they know me fairly well by now) and birthdate.

I was handed the 'scripts and asked about signing for them, which i'd done EVERY SINGLE TIME i'd picked them up for years.

I was told I didn't have to sigh due to covid. I mean, i was like "Saywhut?"

The lady way behind the counter said it was because it was picking up again and they were eliminating signing as a precaution, which they had not done during the last few months.

I mean, they're actually intensifying their anti covid policies now, So I'm wondering if some mysterious "they" know something "they're" not telling us. I'm a little concerned about what happened today. Not panicking, not putting on a tinfoil hat, but just a little concerned.

You'd have to tell us where you live - generally, not specifically, as we don't want to inadvertently get you probed - as that might help figure that out for you.

 Matt Swain wrote:

I mean, they're actually intensifying their anti covid policies now, So I'm wondering if some mysterious "they" know something "they're" not telling us. I'm a little concerned about what happened today. Not panicking, not putting on a tinfoil hat, but just a little concerned.

No real 'mysterious' things here- a surge is happening and its general knowledge.
https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-06-24-20-intl/h_d441e72a1fde7aff951ea9a8670b2dc0


There are roughly 10 states that are seeing a dramatic rise (more than 50% increase) in cases since (roughly) Memorial Day which also overlaps a lot with those states opening (too early). Another 16 are rising not-quite-as-fast. So half the country is up, and a lot of the ones that are down are geographically small (New England) or loosely populated (Dakotas, Alaska), or coming down from an initially high rate (Illinois, New York) or places no one wants to be (Alabama)
I suspect Montana and Idaho are suffering from a major cases of 'Why should we take precautions, it couldn't happen here,' and their initial low numbers makes even relatively small increases in case numbers big in percentage terms.


If you're in one of those states, more precautions is merely the least they could do. At this point, sadly, quarantining new outbreaks seems something this country is completely unwilling to do.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The super markets and us as consumers are to blame also though... How much money can these people be paid when the cost of purchase is driven right down to just above the overheads.

Food should be more expensive if you want high standards, if you don't want to pay more, you are part of the problem yourself.

And at least there's minimum wage. Outside eu countries are more free to skip those. One big reason for certain political event. Even cheaper workforce. Good if you would then be paid equilavent of 2 euros or so per hour.


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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Additionally, those are numbers that we know of. That number is probably far bigger given that testing is only now really ramping up to a good level in most countries. 4 months after it broke out. Those official percentages hide a lot of statistical sorcery.

Yeah. That's why trump publicly asked for less testing. Easier to play it out less worrying if you test less resulting in less official cases.


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 Matt Swain wrote:


I was told I didn't have to sigh due to covid. I mean, i was like "Saywhut?"

The lady way behind the counter said it was because it was picking up again and they were eliminating signing as a precaution, which they had not done during the last few months.

Don't know how it's with med's here but from the start of precautions in march pretty much all signing i have had to do has been stopped.

Knockagh wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Really? I had no idea. I mean, I knew there are eastern europeans being exploited like that in Germany and the Netherlands. I just didn't know slaughterhouses were among the industries that did so.

Absolutely. Slaughterhouses employ mostly first generation migrant labour. Exploitation is a strong word but truely isn’t far off the mark. The EU is built on moving cheap labour to wealthy countries. People think the free movement of the EU is to allow little Jimmy to have his gap year in France or not to have to queue at customs when holidaying in southern Italy but actually it’s designed to allow cheap labour to float unrestricted into factories and jobs our youth will no longer do. It’s modern slavery, but stays under the radar as so few people ever see into the world of migrant labour and they don’t really want to as it facilitates our lifestyles. Many of these jobs are critical to our physical survival, the jobs are difficult (mentally and physically) dangerous and dirty and and yet the rewards are paltry.

It's a side product. EU free movement really is equal parts about middle-class holidays, white collar immigration, and the ideal of travel-equals-friendship. The EU specifically makes it more difficult to import really cheap labour. Alas, it's also helped rattle coronavirus around the continent.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Food should be more expensive if you want high standards, if you don't want to pay more, you are part of the problem yourself.

Or you're poor.

I now know another person with Covid. She's a paramedic in the US.

She had a scare with it a couple of months ago, and now she's got it for real, and her husband at the same time. Obviously one of them infected the other.

It killed her sense of smell for a couple of days. That's come back, but she's had shortness of breath and general low energy.

 Alpharius wrote:
You'd have to tell us where you live - generally, not specifically, as we don't want to inadvertently get you probed - as that might help figure that out for you.

Trust a guy named Alpharius?

Duz I lookz like an ork ta yer?

On the covid matter, this came across my feed, it's a sadly accurate portrayal of the situation in 'murca. I hope it's not too political, bu it is a fair image of what's going on here that explains why so many countries have flattened or dropped the curve while we're still going up. . God help us....

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/6/25/1955445/-Cartoon-The-stunning-new-scientific-breakthrough-to-beat-Covid

According to who rate of new infections in europe has started to increase again. Not particularly surprising. Hopefully doesn't start going up too fast again

I've been out of the loop for a few dozen pages and don't want to get sucked into typing another litany by reading through all the posts. Have the "usual suspects" accepted that reopening was a bad idea and social distancing measures are impactful yet after seeing the massive spikes that are occurring in Texas, Florida, and elsewhere after reopening?

chaos0xomega wrote:
I've been out of the loop for a few dozen pages and don't want to get sucked into typing another litany by reading through all the posts. Have the "usual suspects" accepted that reopening was a bad idea and social distancing measures are impactful yet after seeing the massive spikes that are occurring in Texas, Florida, and elsewhere after reopening?

Nope.

Brits displaying their renowned common sense again. Thought the traffic at the bottom of the M3 was a bit nuts this morning...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53176717

some more terrifying photos from the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/major-incident-declared-as-people-flock-to-england-south-coast?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_News_Feed&fbclid=IwAR2F1vGbDIda0FheQi0Z6gmihYtz8HAhcaVbgK-3eWj9v-vemnnbFZMEL-A

a significant minority are really working hard to get the numbers back up and everything locked down again

Always baffled by those pictures. Even without the pandemic, why would you want to subject yourself to that mess?
I really don't get beach obsessed people.

Oh, we can do worse.

Police last night were assaulted by groups of people drinking in a historic area of Plymouth that doesn't allow outside drinking while trying to administer first aid to a member of the public.

Voss wrote:
Always baffled by those pictures. Even without the pandemic, why would you want to subject yourself to that mess?
I really don't get beach obsessed people.

Aye, even at the best of times the beach is just dull. Those pictures look like some kind of special hell

Terrifying indeed. But if it follows the pattern of the last few weeks, I doubt we have much to worry about.