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Same in Wales apparently. Seems a weird phenomena, and odd that no one is investigating.

Bran Dawri wrote:
There's an app that lets you combine a gazillion membership/club/points cards on your phone - I too hated carrying all those cards.
As for the butcheries, a similar thing happened/is happening in the Netherlands. I don't know that it's a hygiene thing, as I imagine most workers already wore substantial PPE what with all the blood and all.
I suspect those animal fluids are the problem; it's an established fact the virus can infect various animals

It's mostly cramped working conditions without PPE and grueling labor that forces you to breath heavily and spread the virus.

The 'real' problem seems to be that work at a slaughterhouse in the NL, Germany and I assume Wales amongst other countries, is heavily reliant on Eastern European migrant labor. The nature of that type of migrant labor usually involves living and travelling in conditions that don't really allow for social distancing outside work. Once one has it, it can rapidly spread in such localized cases.

Labor intensive agriculture seems to be another potential local outbreak hazard in that sense.

Really? I had no idea. I mean, I knew there are eastern europeans being exploited like that in Germany and the Netherlands. I just didn't know slaughterhouses were among the industries that did so.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Really? I had no idea. I mean, I knew there are eastern europeans being exploited like that in Germany and the Netherlands. I just didn't know slaughterhouses were among the industries that did so.

Slaughterhouses fit in the dirty/hard/difficult line of work for which the pay isn't very high. In the Netherlands alone the union FNV estimates that 80% of slaughterhouse personnel is migrant labor. The company that was in the news here, Vion, says over half of their personnel is migrant labor. The same applies to Germany, over half their workers are from Eastern Europe too:
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-german-slaughterhouse-outbreak-crosses-1000/a-53883372

Its right there in Laughing Man's article on the US too:

But the physical conditions inside these plants probably aren’t the whole story. Social and economic factors likely play a role, too. Meat processing is an exhausting, dangerous, labor-intensive job done primarily by underpaid, undocumented workers and recent immigrants to the US. Out of necessity, many of them live in multigenerational homes or other crowded housing environments. They may also ride company-operated busses for an hour or more each day to and from the plants—usually located in very rural areas—which again puts them in prolonged close contact with other people. Other types of farmworkers, including those who pick fruits and vegetables, face similar challenges when it comes to social distancing at home, in the fields, and in between.

You can get all the work floor PPE you want, but that gets removed once they leave it. Ig you still ride home and sleep in the same room/house together, that work floor PPE won't do anything to really stop the spread.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd just never thought of those conditions applying to what is often essentially set up as a factory, albeit a rather grisly one.

Florida's spiked up to about 3,000 new cases a day. Before last week, we'd never broken 2,000. Mandatory mask orders for all businesses in Hillsborough go into effect on Wednesday.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

I wonder if we'll be the first ones to go back into lockdown/quarantine.

According to the site you actually hit 4K on the 20th plus looking at the rate of infection there's a massive spike over the last week or two.Honestly looking at the numbers I'm surprised they aren't imposing lockdowns again right now. Or at least making masks mandatory over the whole state and perhaps locking down several of the major urban areas going through a rapid rise.

Political reasons will keep Florida from doing the right thing - unfortunately.

In Florida, and the US overall, we can only hope that the average age of those contracting the virus continues to go down and that younger people really are better equipped to handle this, and that the loss of life won't be too great.

 Alpharius wrote:
Political reasons will keep Florida from doing the right thing - unfortunately.

In Florida, and the US overall, we can only hope that the average age of those contracting the virus continues to go down and that younger people really are better equipped to handle this, and that the loss of life won't be too great.

My state is currently opening back up. The 26th, Illinois can do dine ins again. I am not looking forward to it.

We are doomed as a species.

 Alpharius wrote:
Political reasons will keep Florida from doing the right thing - unfortunately.

In Florida, and the US overall, we can only hope that the average age of those contracting the virus continues to go down and that younger people really are better equipped to handle this, and that the loss of life won't be too great.

Pretty sure the strategy is no more Quarantines and damn the torpedoes! Whoever dies, dies.

England has just announced a reduction of the 2m distancing rule to 1m. Wales and Scotland maintaining 2m for now. From the data we're currently getting it does seem that the infection rate has dropped quite considerably and the feared spike from the hot weather in May hasn't happened. I think the big test will come once pubs and restaurants re-open.

Yup. No VE day spike, no school reopening spike, and so far, no idiotic protest spike. I'm standing by my prediction that we will have no 'second wave'.

A little annoyed that the tattoo shops have been given no direction as to when they can re-open though.

I think what is happening is localised breakouts because there is still a lot of social distancing happening, although it's reducing.

However, I don't think economic activity will build up to its previous level for months to a year or so.

I'd wager we won't see economic return for a year if longer. Heck we won't see any return until food outlets are open and when you can properly browse in shops again. Right now, esp for smaller stores that might only fit one or two customer at a time, there's pressure to be in and out quick. No changing rooms open to try on clothes; no time to sit in a chair and read the first three chapters of a book; no holding two products or more in hand and swapping then back and forth; no more using toy shops as short term day-care for half an hour etc...

All perfectly normal things that won't return until such time as when we can more safely socialise with each other without the fear of corona.

Not to mention, it just isn't much fun to shop in the current environment.

Rumours of having to provide names and contacts when going to pubs too. Pass.

Slipspace wrote:
England has just announced a reduction of the 2m distancing rule to 1m.

The new guidelines start on July 4th. And its 1m+ if 2m is not possible. 2m should still be considered the default safe distance, but people are only going to hear the 1m part. Already had one guy in the shop this afternoon complaining that we should change our 2m distancing signs. So be prepared for people to get way closer because if the last few months have shown me anything, its that most people have no idea how far a meter actually is

The biggest issue for me from all the recent announcements and "advice" is that on July 30th aid is being withdrawn from those who are shielding.

There are 2.2m people shielding. Many of those 2.2m people are vulnerable in normal times.

And yet, the govt. is effectively saying "we're telling you that you don't need to shield any more, go get on with it".

Never mind the fact that many of the services these people rely on, including public transport, and social services, have been effectively decimated.


It's exactly the same as when the lockdown was enacted. It was a case of "we're locking you down, get on with it".

No plan for getting aid to people who would need it. Took 6 weeks in many places for aid to start filtering through.


Forget your pubs, your social distancing signs - people have been put through real hardship through no fault of their own and are going to be put through it again due to a complete lack of a coherent exit plan!!

In addition to the above, and I don't mean to sound crude, but when these vulnerable people are back out in society, if they start dropping like flies then what?

You either go full lockdown... Again, as at that point you would assume the general population is back at risk as well as the NHS being under strain, or you just weather it?

I fully don't understand the decision to open pubs and not gyms to be honest, I get it with equipment transfer etc in gyms, but if they think people aren't going to go overboard when allowed out and in pubs and bars again then the government are ridiculous... Pub owners are not going to tell people to go home after 3x drinks if they are willing to pay, they will be wanting to recoup as much money as possible... Drunk people in urban areas will be all over each other in no time.

Either fully open or keep measures in place, this half arsed approach is ridiculous. And lets face it, its because the government want HMRC to have a pay day that pubs are open, that and nothing else.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 DalekCheese wrote:
Don’t other countries already have a working track&trace app?

Yes, exactly. There are countries successfully using the Apple and Google apps, and there are countries successfully using their national app.

Then there is the UK not succeeding with either method.

It reinforces the impression that we are gak, now.

To think that the UK invented computers, programming, the WWW and loads of the world's important chips and we can't even get a crappy little app to work.

How far have we fallen?

Why not buy foreign apps smh

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
In addition to the above, and I don't mean to sound crude, but when these vulnerable people are back out in society, if they start dropping like flies then what?

You either go full lockdown... Again, as at that point you would assume the general population is back at risk as well as the NHS being under strain, or you just weather it?

I fully don't understand the decision to open pubs and not gyms to be honest, I get it with equipment transfer etc in gyms, but if they think people aren't going to go overboard when allowed out and in pubs and bars again then the government are ridiculous... Pub owners are not going to tell people to go home after 3x drinks if they are willing to pay, they will be wanting to recoup as much money as possible... Drunk people in urban areas will be all over each other in no time.

Either fully open or keep measures in place, this half arsed approach is ridiculous. And lets face it, its because the government want HMRC to have a pay day that pubs are open, that and nothing else.

I pretty much agree about pub landlords not being able to control their customers.... after all if they could we wouldn't have so many drunken idiots in the streets every weekend (sure they might be loading up before going out, but that just means the landlord shouldn't be serving them at all)

and as to a return to lock down I just can't see it happening no matter how bad it gets, they're going to be desparate to keep it local (and therefore the blame gets passed to local councils)

although on the plus side the NHS is now much better aware on how to isolate and treat patients and we've got a drug that actually helps recovery, plus we've probably lost those vulnerable to the virus in all the care homes that have had infections so things may not be as bad as they were before,

fingers crossed as I've got to venture to the vet for medication for my cat this week, the first time I've gone anywhere (as opposed to random walking for exercise) since the lockdown started

I can see local lockdowns taking effect, but it will have knock on effects, especially once major urban areas get hit. The real risk being how far you draw the limits. Do you lock down just the major urban area, or large chunks of the surrounding countryside too - since the first thing all those lockdown people will do is start wanting to use those facilities whilst those from outside might still want to use the rural facilites (eg small town shops, tourist sites, zoos, etc....)


Local lockdown also requires a working track and trace and if that isn't working then we might well end up with "local lockdowns" that cover most of the country at the same time.

 Easy E wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Political reasons will keep Florida from doing the right thing - unfortunately.

In Florida, and the US overall, we can only hope that the average age of those contracting the virus continues to go down and that younger people really are better equipped to handle this, and that the loss of life won't be too great.

Pretty sure the strategy is no more Quarantines and damn the torpedoes! Whoever dies, dies.

Yes and no.

On the 'macro' level, that is absolutely the "strategy" (such as it is).

On State level, we'll see I guess.

 Alpharius wrote:
Political reasons will keep Florida from doing the right thing - unfortunately.

In Florida, and the US overall, we can only hope that the average age of those contracting the virus continues to go down and that younger people really are better equipped to handle this, and that the loss of life won't be too great.

Silver lining; less people displaced as most of the state goes underwater over the course of the century!

There was a low budget scifi comedy called "Galaxina" made along time ago in which a character says "I'm always right and no one ever listens to me."

I just couldn't help thinking of that line and how many scientists and epidemiologists must be feeling that way now.

israel does concern me a bit.
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases?country=~ISR

Bran Dawri wrote:
Really? I had no idea. I mean, I knew there are eastern europeans being exploited like that in Germany and the Netherlands. I just didn't know slaughterhouses were among the industries that did so.

Absolutely. Slaughterhouses employ mostly first generation migrant labour. Exploitation is a strong word but truely isn’t far off the mark. The EU is built on moving cheap labour to wealthy countries. People think the free movement of the EU is to allow little Jimmy to have his gap year in France or not to have to queue at customs when holidaying in southern Italy but actually it’s designed to allow cheap labour to float unrestricted into factories and jobs our youth will no longer do. It’s modern slavery, but stays under the radar as so few people ever see into the world of migrant labour and they don’t really want to as it facilitates our lifestyles. Many of these jobs are critical to our physical survival, the jobs are difficult (mentally and physically) dangerous and dirty and and yet the rewards are paltry.

To be fair, I think it goes a bit far to say that the EU is build on that, given that these countries were only entering the EU in the 2000's and big agriculture/industry are already looking outside of the EU to countries such as Ukraine for even cheaper labor. Before the EU took its current form they just got them by importing people from countries such as Turkey and Morocco. Its a global issue, which can be seen in the US also. Its the lack of regulations and government oversight in how these recruitment offices/business operate to extract the most by doing the least for these workers.

In other news, the NYT is reporting that the EU will likely keep blocking travellers from the US over their handling of the coronavirus outbreak, that's not going to go over well with the US government...

The super markets and us as consumers are to blame also though... How much money can these people be paid when the cost of purchase is driven right down to just above the overheads.

Food should be more expensive if you want high standards, if you don't want to pay more, you are part of the problem yourself.