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 Insectum7 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
That Hyperspace is the home of Daemons was already a thing in the 17th century

Whoah, source? That'd be interesting.

In Kepler's novel Somnium (Dream) he describes a journey to the moon by summoning a demon who opens a pathway (with no air and extrem cold) that makes the 50.000 miles trip in 4 hours instead of going traveling thru space

Demons living in their own (hell) dimension before but here the concept that it shortens travel time in space was kind of new


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:

Oh dude! Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarn!

And if we go back to rogue trader or before we’re SM basically humans in power armour, maybe boosted. But not full blown Astartes that we know these days.

I’m sure I remember a photo in rogue trader depicted some SM sitting around in a bar. I’ll see if I can find it

In the 2nd Ragnar book when he is on earth they go to bars to drink

but early on Marines were different, Blood Angles literally were Vampires drinking human blood.

Here are some early marines, note the dudes arresting the punk are normal human size.

Anyway are we missing the obvious that imperial storm troopers were behind the thinking on SM although different in the end result.

mrFickle wrote:

Anyway are we missing the obvious that imperial storm troopers were behind the thinking on SM although different in the end result.

There are also Elementals from Battletech, Genetic engineered to be larger and more powerful in special heavy armour

they do not pre-date 40k, but are older than 2nd Edition were 40k starts to get shape

Nothing's original.

There are only seven stories, all told in thousands of different ways.

 kodos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
That Hyperspace is the home of Daemons was already a thing in the 17th century

Whoah, source? That'd be interesting.

In Kepler's novel Somnium (Dream) he describes a journey to the moon by summoning a demon who opens a pathway (with no air and extrem cold) that makes the 50.000 miles trip in 4 hours instead of going traveling thru space

Demons living in their own (hell) dimension before but here the concept that it shortens travel time in space was kind of new

Whoah! I would have never guessed Kepler wrote a Sci-Fi novel, wtf?! That's pretty great.

This question really depends on how you slice it.

From different angles things look more or less original.

Using other dimensions to travel is not new - therefore the warp being hell is a tweak to a familiar concept.

Hell dimensions are not new - therefore using one to travel long distances is a tweak to a familiar concept.

The point being that I think we should judge the merit of a work on the totality of it, not just dissected parts.

The eldar, as a whole (from creation to fall to now) are collectively a unique concept.

Space marines, as a whole are fairly unique.

Etc.

When you deconstruct things you can lose sight of interactions that are greater than the parts.

A pun is just two words separately, but together they make something altogether different

^
Chain + Sword.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^
Chain + Sword.

YES! Although Ash Williams invented the chainfist.

Squigs are the most original lore in 40k I can come up with. After them Eldar worked because of how they were crafted with the Eldar path. You can argue about it but Eldar still exist in the game and Squats were retired. The Squats were retired because GW couldn't come up with an original enough concept at the time.

locarno24 wrote:
Sarduakar weren't modified, but they were recruited criminals.

IIRC, something in the RT book said that SM were recruited from criminals.
That didn't last long though, what with the implants and such.

All concepts are a rip off and original.

Everything is inspired by something so to get philosophical there is no such thing as an original concept.

What matters is how you interpret said inspiration and mold it into your own idea.

For the ideas workshop has molded the most? I'd say the Tau or Harlequins. But Everything is original in the 40k world. Where else can you find galaxy wide battles with factions of armoured superhumans with two hearts, fighting xenos aliens and Orks? Space elves and Egyptian robots? All fighting for control in a never ending battle?

All of this because of a man created by druids wanted to reach a perfect state for humanity? But as humanity grew so did the psychic potential and the gods to go with it. gods which ignore time itself and like a speedforce have always been present at the same time. Which in turn caused the old gods to create the forces we are now fighting?

To lay a few ground rules down:

1. Being inspired from history or literature doesn't mean 40k is unoriginal.

2. Unoriginal content should be identified as direct parody of an intellectual property. e.g. Inquisitor Sherlock Obi Wan Clouseau.

Examples of Influence:
1. Deathfire is influenced by The Odyssey. (Very blatantly)
2. Techpriests are influenced by Dune.

Examples of Unoriginality:
1. Tyranid Genestealers are carbon copies of Xenomorphs from Aliens. The only saving grace is that Genestealer Cults are a unique characteristic that Xenomorphs don't have.
2. Necrons are a combination of Cybermen/Borg/Terminators. The saving grace is that GW decided to turn them into Space Tomb Kings, which isn't much of an originality saving grace as much as a make 40k more like Warhammer Fantasy tactic.

The novella "Severed" is a great example of why giving Necrons the feel of Space Tomb Kings was a great idea. It's Nemesor Zandrehk going on and adventure with his long-suffering Vargard Obyron. Hijinks ensue!

I think originality is over rated. 40K mashes up all the best sci fi tropes it can find into something awesome, and that is fine by me. I love all the stuff it is inspired by too.

Nurglitch wrote:
The novella "Severed" is a great example of why giving Necrons the feel of Space Tomb Kings was a great idea. It's Nemesor Zandrehk going on and adventure with his long-suffering Vargard Obyron. Hijinks ensue!

It's a shame Zahndrekh seems to forget that Annihilation barges can fly, but still...

mrFickle wrote:
That’s interesting and I think a fair point.

What about necrons? Are they fairly original? The only thing I can think of is terminator

Not even close. The robot Necron 99 is pulled from Ralph Bakshi's 'Wizards' but the designs are pulled form Terminator, until their recent upgrade to Tomb Kings in Space.

This is turning into a game of "see if you can find the inspiration for this bit..."

So how about the Jokaero? Has any other work of fiction featured weird, technologically gifted orang-utans before?

 Tiennos wrote:
This is turning into a game of "see if you can find the inspiration for this bit..."

So how about the Jokaero? Has any other work of fiction featured weird, technologically gifted orang-utans before?

Oh, I don't know, what do you think, Doctor Zaius?

Ha! Not bad, but technology is almost inexistant in Planet of the Apes. That monkey won't be making digital weapons anytime soon.

 Tiennos wrote:
This is turning into a game of "see if you can find the inspiration for this bit..."

So how about the Jokaero? Has any other work of fiction featured weird, technologically gifted orang-utans before?

Could be inspired by gorilla grod and the ape civilisation in DC who are super advanced

 Tiennos wrote:
Ha! Not bad, but technology is almost inexistant in Planet of the Apes. That monkey won't be making digital weapons anytime soon.

That varies enormously between movies. There's also Heinlein's 'Jerry was a Man' and, arguably, the minions of Marvel Comic's High Evolutionary in the original Thor run. David Brin's Uplift universe also predates GW

Edit: Gorilla City in DC is also good, as it's IIRC, from the late 50's/early 60's.

GW has original content?

Jokes aside though, I'd say Orks are my favorite GW "original" content.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:
Ha! Not bad, but technology is almost inexistant in Planet of the Apes. That monkey won't be making digital weapons anytime soon.

That varies enormously between movies. There's also Heinlein's 'Jerry was a Man' and, arguably, the minions of Marvel Comic's High Evolutionary in the original Thor run. David Brin's Uplift universe also predates GW

Edit: Gorilla City in DC is also good, as it's IIRC, from the late 50's/early 60's.

I haven't seen the newer Apes movies, but they don't predate 40k anyway. The whole plot twist at the end of the first movie though, was that the apes (especially Zaius) knew that technology ultimately destroyed mankind so they actively worked to keep their society with as little tech as possible. I think they kept that point in the sequels and the tv series, but I might be wrong.

Fair point for the other monkeys.

mrFickle wrote:
That’s interesting and I think a fair point.

What about necrons? Are they fairly original? The only thing I can think of is terminator

Not really?

Necrons are derived not only from terminator, but also from supernatural horror fiction (ghost stories, HP Lovecraft, zombie stories, etc) and various religions and cultures that have an emphasis on death and rebirth.
Egypt is an obvious example - scarabs are Egyptian symbols of death but also resurrection. The scarab did not represent death, but immortality and resurrection, and pyramids are just big tomb stones.
A less obvious source of influence are the Aztecs; Flayed Ones are inspired by the priests of Xipe Xotec, a god of death and rebirth. The priests would wear the skins of their sacrificial victims.

Everything in whfb and 40k is pretty original in a way. A lot of the races have a twist that set them apart from races in other setting. Lizardmen for example have that aztec theme. I dont know of any other setting with lizardmen like that

123ply wrote:
Everything in whfb and 40k is pretty original in a way. A lot of the races have a twist that set them apart from races in other setting. Lizardmen for example have that aztec theme. I dont know of any other setting with lizardmen like that

The lizard-men in Everquest have a block pyramid fetish, live in a jungle and are keen on live sacrifices to appease their god. Development started in 1995 and the designer drew heavily on his dnd campaign notes for the world building. I think in wider dnd settings lizardmen may have also sometimes had mezoamerican themes too.

Genestealer Cult generations etc, I think that is mostly unique. Yes I get that the genestealer themselves are sort of based on Alien, but other than that I think unique.

 Rippy wrote:
Genestealer Cult generations etc, I think that is mostly unique. Yes I get that the genestealer themselves are sort of based on Alien, but other than that I think unique.

I like the Genestealer Cult stuff a lot.

 Rippy wrote:
Genestealer Cult generations etc, I think that is mostly unique. Yes I get that the genestealer themselves are sort of based on Alien, but other than that I think unique.

Pretty sure Genestealer cults are inspired by Shadow over Innsmouth (entire town of fish people descended from humans who mated with fish monsters, and they worship a fish god) with a bit of bolshevik (a lot of their ranks are composed of the working class, who rise up against the Imperial nobility)

Think maybe the Eldar and their path system is the most original stuff?