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 Eipi10 wrote:
To put that in perspective, $1000 will get you about 4000 pts worth of 40k mini's, two armies worth.

Perhaps but unless you play at home beer and pretzels style it doesnt mean much. Meta changes with every codex, every FAQ. I played mostly infantry IG during the 4th edition and when 5th hit it suddenly forced me to invest a lost in vehicles. In other words i couldnt play what i wanted and what i liked if i wanted to stay somewhat competetive. I know GW needs to sell miniatures so you dont have to explain this but it changes the perspective when you look at costs and how much you can get. While if you play HH when you invest in your army it mostly stay competetive every year. You are not forced to have every new toy in order to play and have a chance at wining.

I'm lucky to live in an area with a strong 30k community in the US (Seattle), but I don't think we've picked up any new 30k players in the last 2 years who weren't already playing the game and happened to move here. The lack of promotion via plastic kits and content are probably the biggest culprits. That and the decision to stick with 7th edition rules. I started 30k because I already had models I could use from my chaos army and I was familiar with the shared rules set. Over time I got new models and created a unique 30k army, but the ability to try the game with existing models and not have to learn new rules was what got me into it. Now there is no such cross promotion. The primaris range is incompatible with 30k and the rules are very different. If you're trying to get a brand new player that plays neither 40k nor 30k to start 30k that's also a tough sell because the player base is smaller and they ever move the chances of them finding games are much lower.

It's pure cost. I've been to 3 GTs now and the 30k community is all older guys with expendable income. The 40k group has this same demographic but also has younger players because you can get more plastic for the same cost. In contrast the CCGs have low cost entry and I see hordes of players at local tournaments.

Rules and play don't seem to change anything. For all 8th's "streamlining" it doesn't seem to have made the games any faster.

Durandal wrote:
It's pure cost. I've been to 3 GTs now and the 30k community is all older guys with expendable income. The 40k group has this same demographic but also has younger players because you can get more plastic for the same cost. In contrast the CCGs have low cost entry and I see hordes of players at local tournaments.

Rules and play don't seem to change anything. For all 8th's "streamlining" it doesn't seem to have made the games any faster.

I think boiling it down to cost alone is a bit too narrow. There's no starter box anymore, but 3 tactical boxes and some rhinos aren't mind blowingly expensive (at least not compared to 40k entry point). Then if you actually get hooked into a 30k community people can help get you an army for a reasonable cost. But again, that's not obvious with someone trying to start on their own. So a new starter box would be a great idea for GW.

 Polonius wrote:
30k is basically less accessible and more expensive than 40k, while having the limits and expectations of a historical game. I have an army I’m thinking about selling, because while I enjoyed the background, I never found a play group, and I cannot go back to 7th edition rules.

I also somehow heard endlessly about how balanced it was, but it seemed that the good builds were so far ahead of everything else as to make the games moot.

30K had occasional rebalances, something 7th edition 40K lacked. But yeah, overall 30K wasn't more balanced than 7th. There were completely broken units, laughably overpriced ones, and those with convoluted rules that didn't work. Tactical marines didn't fare any better in 30K, other than those of a few legions. And all the core rules issues and quirks were still there. It was just saner thanks to it lacking all the formation madness and such of 40K.

Combine that more streamlined 30K design approach with 8th edition core rules and you might really have something. The 8th edition 30K fan effort did a nice job. But those battle lines have hardened and I don't think there's any getting everyone back under the same big tent again. You mostly have the 30K grognards who'll stick with 7th to the end, and those who have moved on and left 30K behind. Just look at the nature of HH releases these days and you can see that...it's all special units and big models for existing players and collectors. Basic stuff like armor marks, shoulder pads, etc. keep getting cut.

FYI, I have a XIIth Legion (World Eaters) army that probably won't ever be used for 30K again. I've adapted and added to it so that I can use it in 40K games in a pinch, though. But my Heresy interests are focused on AT now. It's just a better game.

EDIT - Never mind.

Glumy wrote:
Perhaps but unless you play at home beer and pretzels style it doesnt mean much. Meta changes with every codex, every FAQ. I played mostly infantry IG during the 4th edition and when 5th hit it suddenly forced me to invest a lost in vehicles. In other words i couldnt play what i wanted and what i liked if i wanted to stay somewhat competetive. I know GW needs to sell miniatures so you dont have to explain this but it changes the perspective when you look at costs and how much you can get. While if you play HH when you invest in your army it mostly stay competetive every year. You are not forced to have every new toy in order to play and have a chance at wining.

From what I know of meta-chasers, each year the FAQ's and chapter approved will see you changing up to 2/5th of your army (assuming you don't scrap it entirely). Since HH also gets yearly updates in its black books, I expect the same level of competitive fervor will see you changing out 1/5th of your army on average (less most years, but substantially more if your army is featured in the book). Given the 2 to 1 cost ratio for playing HH, yearly army maintenance will come out to about the same on a per army basis.
Of course, the flip side of this is that the HH community seems to be less competitive than the competitive 40k community (it's in the name; I don't even know if there is a good-sized competitive HH community, despite the more competitive rules, it seems), so the same level of fervor shouldn't be required to have a chance at winning. Even if you only change out 1/10 of your HH army each year, the initial $500 you saved by going with 40k will pay for about 5 years of upgrades before it surpassed what you would have put into HH. That assumes you will stay a competitive player for 5 years, which you probably won't.
And all that's before we get into model recycling. But I won't go into that too much since GW seems to like to release new units more than update old models. They've said as much on Voxcast.

Maybe, just maybe Marines fighting other Marines isn't as popular as people think? It could just be that people prefer the 40k setting.

HH isn't particularly booming here in the UK by the way, I've met maybe one or two people who played it in my entire wargaming career and I have never seen anyone play it in person.

 Eipi10 wrote:

From what I know of meta-chasers, each year the FAQ's and chapter approved will see you changing up to 2/5th of your army (assuming you don't scrap it entirely). Since HH also gets yearly updates in its black books, I expect the same level of competitive fervor will see you changing out 1/5th of your army on average (less most years, but substantially more if your army is featured in the book). Given the 2 to 1 cost ratio for playing HH, yearly army maintenance will come out to about the same on a per army basis.

It really doesnt. You are perfectly fine to win using traditional SM units Tacticals/Terminators/Predators/Contemptors/Land Raiders etc and your own Legion special units (like IW Iron Tyrants). Nothing in the recent book Malevolence came out that my community thinks its abusable. I tested myself Mortifactor and its rather a fun guy than something over the top. I can see Sicarans Arcuses on the table but its not the tank that you cant deal with.

You can win without FW models if youre playing the HH and even have good chances at it. Ofcourse its always nice to have a Fire Raptor or Rapiers with shatter shells.

 Eipi10 wrote:

Of course, the flip side of this is that the HH community seems to be less competitive than the competitive 40k community (it's in the name; I don't even know if there is a good-sized competitive HH community, despite the more competitive rules, it seems), so the same level of fervor shouldn't be required to have a chance at winning. Even if you only change out 1/10 of your HH army each year, the initial $500 you saved by going with 40k will pay for about 5 years of upgrades before it surpassed what you would have put into HH. That assumes you will stay a competitive player for 5 years, which you probably won't.
And all that's before we get into model recycling. But I won't go into that too much since GW seems to like to release new units more than update old models. They've said as much on Voxcast.

I tend to play against quite competetive players but indeed HH guys have restraints. For example some people tested the recent Sabre tanks and had good results (from what i hear) but everyone bought it because they think it looks cool.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Maybe, just maybe Marines fighting other Marines isn't as popular as people think? It could just be that people prefer the 40k setting.

HH isn't particularly booming here in the UK by the way, I've met maybe one or two people who played it in my entire wargaming career and I have never seen anyone play it in person.

And on the opposite end of the spectrum I can get a game in weekly, know a number of clubs that do a lot of Heresy and have seen it be pretty consistent across at least 3 cities I've lived in over the last 10 years. Is it as ubiquitous as 40k? Of course not, but it's certainly as lively as Middle Earth (a game I've seen played once in the last 10 years). But anecdotes are just that.

Marines fighting Marines is 90% of the games that occur in every FLGS/club I've ever been to.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Maybe, just maybe Marines fighting other Marines isn't as popular as people think? It could just be that people prefer the 40k setting.

HH isn't particularly booming here in the UK by the way, I've met maybe one or two people who played it in my entire wargaming career and I have never seen anyone play it in person.

HH is a quasi-historical system so you should approach it with different mindset. Yes its SM vs SM mostly but WW2 system like Bolt Action or Flames of War its humans vs humans.

Basic Legion army list gives you so much opportunities that these SM armies in HH dont look the same.

Also playing in the shop doesnt match the popularity of the system. Players have their own places to play. Especially those who play minor systems.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
HH isn't particularly booming here in the UK by the way, I've met maybe one or two people who played it in my entire wargaming career and I have never seen anyone play it in person.

Fair enough, but for what it's worth, any time I go into my local, there's someone playing HH.

In all fairness, my local is WHW, but there's more people playing HH than there are LOTR.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Marines fighting Marines is 90% of the games that occur in every FLGS/club I've ever been to.

Saw a game last night that was Grey Knights and Custodes vs... Grey Knights and Primaris.

Then another game picked up. Ultramarines vs Thousand Sons.

30k has all the same problems the competitive ITC community has in my eyes, with the extra problem of being a bunch of scrubs instead of a bunch of powergamers.

They've got:

1) The superiority complex. Your "the pitch" section is 100% accurate. "Why are you playing that DUMB game for BABIES??? How about you try one that's actually balanced?"

2) The hilarious mirror of the superiority complex, the gak-fist tantrums any time anything breaks their fluff immersion.

The last time I played 30k, I brought out my mechanicum, threw in my FW knight because my opponent wanted to play 3k and I had about 2.5k of stuff, and a primarch and a big squad of super special honor guard got into combat with the knight and he just smooshed him with a stomp.

I shrugged and said "Welp, 7th ed rules" and my opponent went on for a solid 20 minutes about how stupid it was that the good FW rules designers "caved" to pressure from main studio GW to include those stupid unfluffy knight models in the game.

So...GW pressured FW...into putting rules...for Forgeworld's knight models...into Forgeworld's game?

There seem to be a couple of major of factors,

1. Cost, as everyone has unanimously noted. It's silly to imply this isn't the main factor.

2. Elitism: it's *significant* and spans over a couple of topics.

People treat HH like a historical game - except 40k has no consistency whatsoever and treating the universe in a serious manner is pretty dumb given the holes in the canon. People seem to lose it when you want to use Mark. 7 armour in your units, and like, who cares? If it isn't your army *why* do you care? I remember someone posted a battle report in this subforum a bit back of Alpha Legion versus Daemons and the first post was bemoaning the fact the AL army was largely 40k-era stuff. Yet who really gives? And a lot of these people don't even follow the lore itself properly!

Likewise there's a tendency for Heresy players to treat 30k as this holy grail of balance, consistency and quality in a sea of 40k 'arcadeyness' - yet beyond anecdotes and tales of the 'wonderful balance' of 30ks revamped 7th ed ruleset, it's very clear from even a basic skim over the rules this is pure nonsense. There are tons of duff and dud units - and the spread of the books and problems with Forge World have not helped this. There's a tendency likewise to treat people with an enjoyment of competitive metas as 'chasers' and 'WAAC' types, but arguably this is a crossover with 40ks community.

There's plenty of overlap between HH and 40k models, though you can't really chase the competitive meta with HH-useful models.

I'm not sure where people are meeting these supposed "elitists". I play 30k and no one in my area thinks like this.

I played HH at Adepticon last year, and everyone there was really laid back and some of the coolest people I've ever played with.

I know this is purely anecdotal.

 Orodhen wrote:
I'm not sure where people are meeting these supposed "elitists". I play 30k and no one in my area thinks like this.

I played HH at Adepticon last year, and everyone there was really laid back and some of the coolest people I've ever played with.

I know this is purely anecdotal.

One of the guys in my gaming group (the main 30k guy) still is not happy that I intend to paint most of my Ultramarines silver/blue despite there being a very clear picture of a silver/blue Ultramarine in one of the Black books (Crusade I think?).

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I'm not sure where people are meeting these supposed "elitists". I play 30k and no one in my area thinks like this.

I played HH at Adepticon last year, and everyone there was really laid back and some of the coolest people I've ever played with.

I know this is purely anecdotal.

One of the guys in my gaming group (the main 30k guy) still is not happy that I intend to paint most of my Ultramarines silver/blue despite there being a very clear picture of a silver/blue Ultramarine in one of the Black books (Crusade I think?).

There is always one in every group.

The label of "elitist" gets thrown around the same as WAAC, Casual Mafia, etc. Throwing names at others who have a different opinion to you just demonstrates a lack of any cogent argument. Its easier to label. I always heard "elitist" applied to anyone who wanted to use/used FW models due to their cost, and their relative rarity (although nowadays, ordering from the US to UK, Germany, Spain, Russia is super easy, so accessibility should never be part of the equation).

I've always seen HH played in groups at people's homes, or in clubs, and at Tournaments - Adepticon has had HH events for years (usually Narrative). I've never seem them played at an LGS for reasons already spelled out. Its a false scarcity.

That being said, its become rarer, and harder to get folks to try to pick it up. As was mentioned, there is no difference between HH battles, and 40k marine on marine battles, or any historical ruleset that has humans against humans.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:
I'm not sure where people are meeting these supposed "elitists". I play 30k and no one in my area thinks like this.

I played HH at Adepticon last year, and everyone there was really laid back and some of the coolest people I've ever played with.

I know this is purely anecdotal.

One of the guys in my gaming group (the main 30k guy) still is not happy that I intend to paint most of my Ultramarines silver/blue despite there being a very clear picture of a silver/blue Ultramarine in one of the Black books (Crusade I think?).

It's quite unfortunate that you have to deal with someone like that. I can assure you that my armies are probably not 100% accurate, partly because I suck at painting, and because I wanted the schemes to look a certain way.

A problem to note with the dialogue slanted towards '30k/Heresy players are elitists/jerks/'TFG's' (and yes, there are some posts here that are stepping on that line if not crossing it) is that Dakka is inherently a 40k forum. In fact I'd argue it's an ITC-tourney-hammer forum with severe anti-GW sentiments, but that's probably just semantics and personal viewpoints (so don't @me for that).

As I was saying, this is a 40k forum. Asking why 30k is not doing gangbusters, within the US market, on here is like asking why AoS maybe isn't doing gangbusters on here. Or asking about Necromunda or Bloodbowl or Middle Earth or *insert non-GW game here*. The member base is skewed, as are opinions and viewpoints. A lot of 30k/Heresy players are in it for the narrative, the 'rule of cool' and the semi-historical nature of the game, things that in general are not pushed by the 40k crowd here (see: 40k General as an example). Heck we're even getting into the semantics of words used in an almost one-ups-manship approach to this discussion, which really ends up just validating or invalidating views and answers depending on which side of the line you fall.

So, let's do a couple of nuggets of truth shall we:
*Some* Heresy players will talk down to 40k players because one is playing a lesser game/only cares about *insert inconsequential matter here*, etc. At the same time *some* 40k players look down on Heresy players for not playing the popular game, or for being 'gatekeepers' for more 40k Space Marine rules. It's swings and roundabouts, it gets emphasised on the internet but in general* most Heresy and 40k players are chill and let people enjoy the games they play.
AoD (no I will not call it 7th) and current 40k are different games. They can exist within the same company. They can have similar model lines. That doesn't make one better than the other. You can enjoy one more than the other, but that doesn't make the other any lesser or 'worse'. Again this is a personal opinion you (the reader) makes for yourself.
The cost of Heresy is a lot higher than the cost of 40k (unless you're churning armies out every 3 months to stay 'competitive'). I often call Heresy someone's passion project - it's the thing they want to do, want to get it 'right' (by there own meaning of that) and want to take time with it. This cost is exacerbated for the US market which does not have ease of access compared to Europe.
The US gaming places are stores. These stores expect you to buy from them, and so wont support games they don't sell. Simple as that really.

So, Heresy not being strong in the US market is a combination of it not being 40k/a 40k compatible game, it's high cost with low accessibility, it's low support from non-direct FW stores.

Things that can help this:
Allowing FW to be ordered through GW stores.
New plastic starter set similar to Calth or Prospero

That's about it really. There are big events that take place for Heresy over that side of the pond so it's thriving enough for them to happen even if you don't see it yourself. Bare in mind the UK is roughly the landmass of one of the USA's states. We don't have multiple timezones on our landmass, so you likely have a bigger community than you think it's just spread over a much larger area.

*personal experience

Did some cleaning in this thread, kindly all stay on topic and keep in mind that Rule #1, to be polite to one and all, is not optional. Thanks.

There's 2 Horus Heresy armies I know of in my area, and I have one of them.

If you moved to 8th edition 40k, this wont help you, but ny gaming group stayed playing 7th, and 30k was built for 7th rules, so we just play our 30k armies against 40k armies, and have some fluff for our armies about how this would be possible, which absolutely none of the non-HH guys care about at all.

But i did not go the FW route. Almost all of my models are plastic, conversions or "off-brand. Bits of War has some great stuff for a Legion army. Only FW I bought was Zardu Layak and the Blade Slaves, I already had my own Zardu Layak conversion, I just wanted thos Blade Slaves.

I do not live in a very affluent area, and quite frankly, Forgeworld has priced itself out of the market here for the most part. Actually, GW has priced itself out of a big chunk of the market here, as well.

There's apparently a 30k gaming club within an hour of here, but unfortunately the age gap between us and them is insurmountable socially.

A big and simple difference is that the UK has a strong club scene, where the US is much more store-based. The former creates a more nurturing environment for something so niche-within-a-niche and difficult to start as 30K.

It makes sense that the big US events still draw 30K players. There's certainly a level of demand for 30K in the US, but it's spread out thinly. Events create a destination where players can concentrate and get their Heresy on. Something they can't necessarily do locally. I would expect the big events to still draw even if (especially if?) local player bases dry up.

Another thing about the cost of HH in the USA (and something that I really think limits the recruitment) isn't just the cost from FW, but the cost of shipping from FW.


Unlike 40K, you can't go to a shop and buy a squad box. You can get free shipping with large orders, but for someone who would like to build up an army slowly (paint as you go, maybe?), you're going to be paying a bunch of shipping each time you order. For someone who doesn't have the disposable income to drop a bunch at once on an army, you are also going to be spending a load on shipping as well (and you already didn't feel comfortable ordering $120 of product at once).

That $10 on every small order really discourages the smaller purchases that let someone "test the waters" for HH. It also really discourages the "slow grow" player in a way that regular 40K doesn't'.

It's not prohibitively expensive shipping, but it does inhibit you from making impulse purchases and the odd purchase now and then. If you put a barrier to entry to every single 40K player who started with a single squad, and every single 40K player who went from buying 'one cool model' to an army, and every player who went from "just one squad of these guys to add to my army" to a second army, you'd see a lot smaller 40K population as well.

Good point about stores. If your FLGS could order FW and sell it at a profit it would go a long way towards making their games and models acceptable in the US.

I can share my story with you.

Back in 2017 I attended LVO for the first time. I was happy to go and be with my friends, but my interest in 40K was fading fast. I'd only been playing for three years at the time and the horrible levels of cheese in 7th were just killing any will I had to play.

While visiting the FW booth, my friend and I lucked into a nice deal. A previous customer had purchased a some HH books, but discovered that they had spine and back cover damage. The GW rep offered to sell them to us at a discount (it really wasn't that bad in terms of damage) of 40% off.

The next day, I came back to the booth and bought Roubute Guilliman, a Betrayal at Calth Boxset, 2 Deimos Rhino, a Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer, a Levithan with claw and melta, a couple of Ultramarine upgrade pacs.

My friend bought a ton of Tagmata stuff for Ad Mech.

When we got home, we went on a building spree and within a couple of days I had the start of my army ready to go. We found out that there was a group in the bigger city north of us, so on Fridays we'd drive up to play the game from time to time. Even there, the number of players were less than 10 (actually less than 7 I think.)

It was a fun game and I did see it as a lot more balanced with less of the problems that 40K had at the time. But, what truly drew me to the game was the lore and story and the models.

Unfortunately, less than 5 months later 8th edition dropped and the entire community imploded. EVERYONE was playing 8th. Most people sold their HH armies to buy the new primaris marines and the number of players fell to three, then 2 and then finally 1.

After learning 8th, I was in the camp that was hoping that HH would move to the new ruleset and when they announced that it would not, I dropped it like a hot rock and never looked back.

Funny enough, Adeptus Titanicus is satisfying my HH needs these days, far cheaper and easier to transport, with more players, it seems like the better fit for me.

 Big Mac wrote:
) 30k lacks diversity in term of xenos, so its a marine hotdog fest, the players have to be able to tell the difference between Mark II, Mark III and Mark IV armor, then their associated bolter patterns, plasma gun patterns and so on...

Doesn't sound very different to 40k tbh.

 Big Mac wrote:
30k players seem to be historical elitist when comparing to 40k players.
1) 30k lacks diversity in term of xenos, so its a marine hotdog fest, the players have to be able to tell the difference between Mark II, Mark III and Mark IV armor, then their associated bolter patterns, plasma gun patterns and so on...

2) most 30k are in resin, a material new and harder to work with than plastic, not to mention cost; so the new 30k player would most likely to be a 40k veteran gone to the deep end, whereas a new 40k player is probably a teenager getting their first plastic krak

3) availability of 30k outside of EU, now it’s just gotten a bit easier with the new FW shop in the Dallas, TX USA. Prior to that was very expensive with getting what was already expensive resin kits out of EU; thanks to the Brexit, the dollar is worth more to the pound, kits are somewhat affordable.

4) a lot of us collect 30k models for coolness, or use them as subs, but not enough to play a legit 30k game.

It has been over a year since my last game, but I am almost positive that the Mark of the armor or boltgun patterns do not have their own special rules. Plasma, Melta and so on are the same in both editions, aside from being 7th/8th ed divide.