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People who think you can't customise models need to join some Inq28 and Blanchitsu groups on Facebook. They come up with some crazy stuff. Also a bunch of the non-marine troop models (skitarii, tempestus scions, cadians, GSC off the top of my head) parts are all pretty interchangable.

I don't think its that GW discourage it I think its more that people follow instructions too rigidly.

It made sense when if you wanted that extra power sword/weapon on your hero dude, or to have those 2-3 special weapons in your squad you buy two boxes of the unit.

But, why buy another whole box just for 5 parts if you can buy those 5 parts on their own? Its not worth them to make those 5 parts on their own, and they don't want others making a profit they themselves are not choosing to make..

That's probably what GW is thinking. Back when they had the mail order service and you could kit bash to your hearts content people would buy their various bits so it made sense. But now they have seemingly doubled down on the no models no rules approach.The frustrating thing is they are really random with the applicaton of no model no rules approach.. Some untis have options for 5 of the same weapon they only give you 1 of in the box... Also for example prince yriel is the only autarch on foot model, but its a special character so technicaly autarch on foot isint a model they sell yet has rules. But yet its fine to take awaye DE HQ options and SM biker hero options options etc.. Also, consider free relics weapons. Certainly no model no rules does not apply.

Another example is that if I buy a storm guardian upgrade kit I can have up to two fusion in my storm guardian squad but if I buy the kit, I have to have two or end up with only 6 dudes which is not enough to make a squad.

This is certainly all part of a deliberate philosophy.
They could have far more customisation on their units/lords for all of their factions.

If you can make a special cosmetic sprue for all the bazillion SM chapters, making a general upgrade sprue for a faction characters shouldn't be that hard... models like a chaos lord.
Then you could have all of the hob goblin surfboard DE, Sm bikers and Rando necron lords etc..

But that would take initiative and flexibility. Not GW strong suit..

There definitely is room for a variety pack or better customizable characters. that is for certain.

normal squads dont really bother me that much.

Even some of GW's newer kits still have a lot of extra bits on them.

Por examplure, despite never buying a FW model an assortment of left-over bits have led to me building Sagitarius Custodes (Assault Bolters from the Inceptor kit) and both Gladius (spare Guardian Sword, Shield from the Keeper of Secrets, spare hand from the Invictor) and Achilles Contemptors (Spear from the KoS kit, power fist and combi-bolters from Cataphracii Terminators).

All the extra bits in those kits led directly to me buying another box of Custodian guard and two Contemptors, none of which I had any need for at all otherwise. The FW models are really nice kits, but the kit-bashes are mine.

The Newman wrote:
Even some of GW's newer kits still have a lot of extra bits on them.

Por examplure, despite never buying a FW model an assortment of left-over bits have led to me building Sagitarius Custodes (Assault Bolters from the Inceptor kit) and both Gladius (spare Guardian Sword, Shield from the Keeper of Secrets, spare hand from the Invictor) and Achilles Contemptors (Spear from the KoS kit, power fist and combi-bolters from Cataphracii Terminators).

All the extra bits in those kits led directly to me buying another box of Custodian guard and two Contemptors, none of which I had any need for at all otherwise. The FW models are really nice kits, but the kit-bashes are mine.

Yeah there are definitely kits with a lot of extra stuff for kit bashing. i love all the extra stuff in the admec kits. but its not all or nothing for kit bits. for example there is hardly anything in the newer space marine character blisters. it would be arguable for just one off special characters but not so much on a generic chaplain or apothecary.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

They've sold devastators with less than 4 of each heavy weapon since at least as long as I've been playing. The IG rifle squad from like 2002 only has a grenade launcher and a flamer when the squad can take meltaguns and plasmaguns too.

And those were sold in a blister of 1 of each for $9 at the time, while the Cadians were a box of 20 for $25ish.

Oh, and Marines got flamers and missile launchers in their box while everything else was a combination plastic+metal kit.

I think there are two sides to this.

From my perspective as a player, more options means more rules bloat and less balance. It also means more swingy options that will change from edition to edition. Melta is king? Now we're in 8th and it's not anymore, it's all about plasma. In addition I only play, I care nothing for painting or modeling, so having more or less options literally means nothing to me.

 Togusa wrote:
I think there are two sides to this.

From my perspective as a player, more options means more rules bloat and less balance. It also means more swingy options that will change from edition to edition. Melta is king? Now we're in 8th and it's not anymore, it's all about plasma. In addition I only play, I care nothing for painting or modeling, so having more or less options literally means nothing to me.

Surely those options translate to table top options too...?

 Argive wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I think there are two sides to this.

From my perspective as a player, more options means more rules bloat and less balance. It also means more swingy options that will change from edition to edition. Melta is king? Now we're in 8th and it's not anymore, it's all about plasma. In addition I only play, I care nothing for painting or modeling, so having more or less options literally means nothing to me.

Surely those options translate to table top options too...?

That's part of my point though, they do translate to more options on the table top. However, I am in the camp that believes the large and highly varied number of options is part of the problem with the balance in the game. So I'd rather see more specialized units with less options in terms of game balance.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Even if you want to be super-picky and say that you could only alter the placing/angle of the waist, arms and heads on the old models, that is still three more opportunities than we have on these new monopose travesties and we still have 60 troops with only ten pairs of legs - if you're really lucky - between them.

It is, IMO, a definite loss from the modelling perspective.

It depends on what kit you're talking about.

Some kits are monopose. As has always been the case - remember how the majority of the unit options in every codex used to be metal? You know how metal is super monopose?

And some kits are dual-pose, or monopose with the same five poses in every box. Usually elites, the kind that used to come in those two-fer or three-fer clampacks. You know, the metal ones with 2-3 poses.

And some kits, generally the troop kits, are multipose, with swappable arms, heads, etc.

I play drukhari and I play genestealer cults. Drukhari are lauded as the most kitbashable/posable army ever produced and GSC are pretty much brand new. My troop kits from the Drukhari have exactly 1 thing over the GSC kits for poseability and that's the ability to slightly tilt or pivot the waist. That's it.

Yes, I remember metal monoposes, from twenty FSMdamn years ago.

I'm not really seeing how you think this is a defence of GW. Like, at all.

Whilst GW plastics technology has advanced, the models themselves have gone backwards. They're more akin to their 2nd Ed mono-pose metals than they are to what came after them. And that's a shame.

 Sim-Life wrote:
People who think you can't customise models need to join some Inq28 and Blanchitsu groups on Facebook.

That's not really what people are getting at though. There's a marked difference between the customisation possible with, say, the Tac Marine kit than there is compared to the Intercessor kit. Or the old Chaos Marine kit to the new kit/Havoc kit. Assembling half a box of Sisters drove a friend of mine mad last week with how frickin' fiddly they are.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Also a bunch of the non-marine troop models (skitarii, tempestus scions, cadians, GSC off the top of my head) parts are all pretty interchangable.

I'll have to give that a shot when I get to those armies.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't think its that GW discourage it I think its more that people follow instructions too rigidly.

Their rules are based around limiting restrictions these days. It's baked into everything they do.

Excommunicatus wrote:Even if you want to be super-picky and say that you could only alter the placing/angle of the waist, arms and heads on the old models, that is still three more opportunities than we have on these new monopose travesties and we still have 60 troops with only ten pairs of legs - if you're really lucky - between them.

It is, IMO, a definite loss from the modelling perspective.

Honestly, i don't think it's super picky to say that Guardsman #98 is basically identical to Guardsman #1. There are only so many ways to assemble a guardsman. I think there are 3 different legs per box and like 6 different lasguns. And they all look the same anyway. When building my Grey Knights, there are three halberd poses and 5 leg poses, which is 15 total permutations for most of my army.

There's a minimum amount of variation to look good, but there doesn't need to be a whole lot. In my opinion, the most annoying monopose things are the models that stand out from their squad, like the Sister with a hand grenade in her teeth or the Infiltrator with the handgun, because they look different and you notice the fact that there's like 4 of them. You don't really notice the fact that 2 of the other three infiltrators in the squad are also repeats.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

They've sold devastators with less than 4 of each heavy weapon since at least as long as I've been playing. The IG rifle squad from like 2002 only has a grenade launcher and a flamer when the squad can take meltaguns and plasmaguns too.

And those were sold in a blister of 1 of each for $9 at the time, while the Cadians were a box of 20 for $25ish.

Oh, and Marines got flamers and missile launchers in their box while everything else was a combination plastic+metal kit.

Not Devastators. I think the only old weapons team box that had all assets in it was the IG Heavy Weapons box.

Point is, it's not some conspiracy, nor is the box not having all the weapons a new feature.

Wayniac wrote:

However, I find the move to what are basically monopose kits with multiple parts to be disheartening. I have fond memories of laying out pieces of a kit and then spending time deciding just how they would go together such that each model told a story. Brother Flavius has an MkV shoulder pad with a MkVI helmet and a bolter with a marksmanship award for his skill, while Brother Remus, the newer member of the squad, wears typical MkVII armor without any particular adornments, etc.

bad example as you can pretty much do just that with intercessors still.

 Overread wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:


The Sisters of Battle plastic kit is utterly ridiculous. You get all the tedium of building minis, but with none of the fun and freedom. E.g., sometimes you've got a foot that comes separately from the leg, even though it fits only one leg at one specific angle. Why make them different bits in the first place? It's almost like they're trying to increase the likelihood of bits getting lost, thus forcing the player to buy more models.

.

This has everything to do with casting in plastic as opposed to metal or resins. Basically plastic injection moulding can only achieve certain shapes and outside of those shapes and constructs they are impossible. The option is to either simplify the pose with big ball joints; or to slice the part up into smaller segments. At the same time its also clear that GW is doing a lot to actually hide joining lines. A lot of the more modern models have natural cover points or hide up the joining areas. This can result in some creative cutting of the parts as well.

What a load of crap.
So you'd have me believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE to cast the slightly left canted foot & the leg it connects to of some SoB as one piece? Meanwhile, over in the Corax Cultist kit for AoS (wich I just built last week), you get sprues that look like this: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Slaves-To-Darkness-Corvus-Cabal-2019
Note, those cultist bodies/legs are at differing angles, the feet point different directions, and they're cast as one piece.
But a SoB leg continuing on to the foot.... No, that's impossible!

ERJAK wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
For every one of you people who aren't willing to buy multiple kits of the same unit to get the options you want or the ones that go to third party - there is a sucker somewhere that is willing to do whatever he has to do to get his hands of some genuine cyclic ion blasters. I think that is the main reason they do cheesy stuff like this. They make a lot of money of idiots.

How do they make money OF idiots? I can't imagine it being a worthwhile investment to produce an idiots to currency printing press.

Also, it's not idiocy, it's a value calculation. Do I: A. Buy the kit that has the thing I need, even though I don't really need the whole kit. B. Buy 'official' bits off ebay. C. Buy third party bits. Or D. Waste hours of my day, and of my very limited hobby time, playing sculpter to make something that vaguely resembles the parts I need.

B and C are usually the best value in terms of time and dollars, obviously, but sometimes A works out fine. Buying another retributor kit gives me the multimeltas I need, while also letting me finish up my heavy bolter squad AND giving me another chainsword SisSuperior.

Spending less dollars on something doesn't make it inherently a 'better deal'. If you spend hours building cyclic ion cannons that end up looking like crap(like the majority of 'scratchbuilt' or 'sculpted' components do) you could quite possibly come up with an equation of time spent vs quality of output that makes buying a couple of commander kits the better deal.

The true idiot is the guy that hits that point but still brags about how much he 'saved' because he doesn't understand that time isn't free.

The true value of option D is whether you had fun doing it and whether or not you're happy with the result. For example, I replaced two Havoc lascannon barrels with two Space Wolf Dreadnaught assault cannon barrels. Now they're two renegade Wolves walking around with gatling lasers (using the chaincannon profile) and to be honest I'm happier with that than I would've been with three standard chaincannon Havocs.

Of course you could say "well, you could've done that even if there were 4 chaincannon bits in the Havocs kit" and while that is of course true I probably never would've thought of making the conversion in the first place if I didn't lack chaincannon bits.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Yes, I remember metal monoposes, from twenty FSMdamn years ago.

I'm not really seeing how you think this is a defence of GW. Like, at all.

What? 20 years ago? The last time we had armies released with old-style monopose models for their elite units and characters was 20 years ago now? But the whole "metal to finecast" debacle was like...8 years ago.

My point here is that people complaining about how monopose units are "these days" are remembering an imagined golden age of customization. The only thing that's really changed is that GW has cracked down on "no model, no rules" but that's not removing customization from MODELS, that's removing customization from RULES. Almost all of the kits people like to complain about for having only 5 or 10 possible configurations with which to build the models in the kit, there would have been 2 or 3 poses back in what they're remembering as "the good old days." It's a heck of a lot easier to build a varied, interesting looking maximum sized unit of my GSC Aberrants than it is to build that with my DE Grotesques, even with the fact that the kit for the Aberrants is effectively dual-posed (I think 2 models in it have 3 poses and 3 have 2, and you can swap the heads freely)

You mentioned metal monopose. I didn't toss that particular non sequitur out there.

I can only speak for myself, but no. I don't believe in any golden age. Instead, you're building a strawman in the gaps of what I've said. I am well aware that monopose models have always been a thing, I haven't ever denied that they were. I have never claimed every mini ever released came in interchangeable parts for ease of customization.

That is very far from the only thing that has changed. Troop boxes containing miniatures that can only be put together one very specific way without major work is a very, very new thing (Death Guard, Primaris, Heretic Astartes and Adepta Sororitas only, so far).

We still have a very limited number of leg sculpts available and now we can't change up the waist, head or arms to try and make them look any different unless we take a knife to crazy-expensive minis, which I don't have the talent, inclination or time to do.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
You mentioned metal monopose. I didn't toss that particular non sequitur out there.

I can only speak for myself, but no. I don't believe in any golden age. Instead, you're building a strawman in the gaps of what I've said. I am well aware that monopose models have always been a thing, I haven't ever denied that they were. I have never claimed every mini ever released came in interchangeable parts for ease of customization.

That is very far from the only thing that has changed. Troop boxes containing miniatures that can only be put together one very specific way without major work is a very, very new thing (Death Guard, Primaris, Heretic Astartes and Adepta Sororitas only, so far).

We still have a very limited number of leg sculpts available and now we can't change up the waist, head or arms to try and make them look any different unless we take a knife to crazy-expensive minis, which I don't have the talent, inclination or time to do.

Are we talking about these sisters of battle? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Adepta-Sororitas-Battle-Sisters-Squad-2020

I'll admit, I have not bought and built this box yet, but unless I'm grossly misunderstanding how it goes together, the weapons look like they're all attached at the wrist, which would make them if not freely swappable at least as easily swapped as pretty much any kit people consider fully customizable like Kabalite Warriors.

The heads...I mean, I don't know how you can claim those are not freely swappable, GW has been doing ball joint heads for pretty much forever.

And the legs/waists are not swappable. Which I did say was the biggest drop in customizability between the fifth ed era kits and (most of) the 7th-8th ed era kits. Some of them still have pivot waists, most do not.

OK, so Chaos Space Marines. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Chaos-Space-Marines-2019

Is there some voodoo at the shoulder joints I'm not seeing that would keep me from swapping the arms? Because that looks like just another kit where you can swap the heads, arms, weapons and shoulderpads freely while the torsos and legs are fixed.

Primaris marines. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors I mean..it's a boring kit, but it is space marines. Legs and torsos are fixed, arms, heads, shoulderpads, Destructinator Pattern Standard Fanny Packs and the weapon differentiator bits are swapped. Sure, there's less customization than tactical marines...because they have fewer weapon options...but there's not less customization than other kits with each model holding all the same weapon ala Dire avengers/Necrons/Tau.

And plague marines. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Death-Guard-Plague-Marines-2017 This seems like the one where you're closest to having a point, because the torsos and legs being monosculpted would definitely be a lot more noticeable when they have a giant mouth belly on one. Though I can't tell from looking at it if the fat suit bellies are freely swappable or if they go to one particular torso. I can definitely see this kit being more like a dual-pose kit, where only one particular torso can accept the heavy weapon or something like that. But looking at, for example, the new CSM Havocs, it looks like all the torsos are tilted in the same way, so as long as you built the backpack and arm pair for the particular weapon, you could just put that weapon on any torso.

Where are these models that can only be assembled one way? How do I have to cut these to customize them at all? How are these kits any different from this kit except for the ability to rotate the torso? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Drukhari-Kabalite-Warriors-2017

Don't people problem come from the dynamic model, when suddenly every fourth model in your army is standing on top of its had. And the fact that the HQs and unit leaders do not come with the weapon options people need for them. And when GW did start to make the weapon packs, they are chapter specific, so if you want to have a thunder hammer or a fist, but your playing IH or RG then tough luck, your going to have to buy salamander and IF parts. But what probably happens more often you will buy recasts or 3ed party that are cheaper.

I mean with all the Lts and Cpts GW made one could think that they could have a thunder hammer on more then one, and maybe not put the only one on a special character that costs more.

I don’t think all the options need to come with the kits, what would be nice are bits kits. I always found it annoying that lots didn’t support all of the unit weapon options that the codex described. There are few upgrade kits no king around but I think larger ones with lots of options and and more unique looking bits would be good for those of us that want to make the effort.

I really loved just the citadel skulls box. And that’s just skulls

Ooh, heads and wrists. The options overwhelm me.

Even if they went on freely, which the wrists don't because they're that way so they you can also use the same five or six pairs of legs on your Dominions and Retributors as on your Sisters too, how is any of this a defence?

You're just spiralling down through whataboutisms while conceding ground at every turn, implicitly agreeing with my point that from a modelling perspective things have gotten much, much worse.

Heads and wrists, tho.

What bugs me more than the overall lack of customization is the options. They've done it for years but I'm sick of getting like barely any of the options available to a kit. Either remove the ability to take that many, then, or give enough in the kit, or better yet sell an optional kit like the upgrade pack which contains the additional special/heavy/etc. weapons.

It's bs that the expectation is that you buy 2 boxes to equip one squad with identical weapons because the base kit only has one weapon and the squad can take two.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Ooh, heads and wrists. The options overwhelm me.

Even if they went on freely, which the wrists don't because they're that way so they you can also use the same five or six pairs of legs on your Dominions and Retributors as on your Sisters too, how is any of this a defence?

You're just spiralling down through whataboutisms while conceding ground at every turn, implicitly agreeing with my point that from a modelling perspective things have gotten much, much worse.

Heads and wrists, tho.

This is the most internet argument I've had in ages, lol. Accuse me of a list of logical fallacies next. Oh wait, you've already said strawman, I think I've got Bingo now.

Explain to me two things, please:

1) Worse than what? Worse, compared to what point in the past?

The reason I chose Drukhari as a point of comparison is because (at least from who I've listened to) the drukhari are the best, most customizable range GW ever produced, and the best intersection between the model having modern levels of detail, the bits in the kits being highly varied, the models having good poseability, and the bits between different models in the range being interchangeable. Also, I've built that kit like 5 times so I know it in and out.

If you think they're a bad point of comparison, what is the correct point of comparison?

2) Worse how? you claimed that the arms, heads, and torsos always had to be the same on all those troops kits, which just doesn't seem correct looking at the sprues and instructions.

Here's what you can do with the Kabalite Warriors kit:

-The arms are paired, except of course for the melee/pistol arms. You need to pair Arm A with Gun A, or else you need to either live with Arm B sitting strangely on Gun A or you need to cut at the shoulder to make them fit. Any arm can be placed on any torso.

-With the arms attached, they create a flat join at the center, so you can rotate them approximately 45 degrees until the arm hits the shoulderpad, or the gun hits the torso. This means most torsos can be posed either holding the gun up/firing, or holding the gun down.

-There is one arm in a special pose, where the model is holding the gun in one hand and a knife in the other. You must use the knife as the other hand if you want the model to be legal, since he cannot take any of the sergeant's equipment.

-Heads are on a ball joint, so you can have them facing any direction or tilted slightly for aiming or whatever.

-The legs are all the same with extremely minor variation, like a scrap of cloth or the occasional waistcloth. They are all in the same standing pose. in order to get different poses, you must use kits from other parts of the range.

-Torsos are also on a ball joint, giving you another approximately 90 degree arc of freedom before you start having weird looking models who look all twisted around. There are 2 torsos, boobs or no boobs.

So you've got six degrees of customization. Head position, head choice, waist position, arm choice, arm position, and then miscellaneous gak like the grenade packs/trophy skulls and stuff that never look good because they just look like they're glued to the model's butt.

I look at something like Primaris Intercessors, and I see:

Head position, head choice, arm choice, arm position, miscellaneous gak, shoulderpad choice.

That looks like an identically customizable kit. You trade off being able to rotate the waist for having poses that look like things an actual human standing might do instead of everyone doing a horse riding stance, and also having the ability to make a model walking or standing instead of just standing.

Wayniac wrote:
What bugs me more than the overall lack of customization is the options. They've done it for years but I'm sick of getting like barely any of the options available to a kit. Either remove the ability to take that many, then, or give enough in the kit, or better yet sell an optional kit like the upgrade pack which contains the additional special/heavy/etc. weapons.

It's bs that the expectation is that you buy 2 boxes to equip one squad with identical weapons because the base kit only has one weapon and the squad can take two.

The Skitarii and Chaos Terminators are easily the worst offenders in my eyes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
What bugs me more than the overall lack of customization is the options. They've done it for years but I'm sick of getting like barely any of the options available to a kit. Either remove the ability to take that many, then, or give enough in the kit, or better yet sell an optional kit like the upgrade pack which contains the additional special/heavy/etc. weapons.

It's bs that the expectation is that you buy 2 boxes to equip one squad with identical weapons because the base kit only has one weapon and the squad can take two.

The Skitarii and Chaos Terminators are easily the worst offenders in my eyes.

I mean....better than Guardsmen. 4 out of what...16 special, heavy and melee weapon options in the kit?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Ooh, heads and wrists. The options overwhelm me.

Even if they went on freely, which the wrists don't because they're that way so they you can also use the same five or six pairs of legs on your Dominions and Retributors as on your Sisters too, how is any of this a defence?

You're just spiralling down through whataboutisms while conceding ground at every turn, implicitly agreeing with my point that from a modelling perspective things have gotten much, much worse.

Heads and wrists, tho.

This is the most internet argument I've had in ages, lol. Accuse me of a list of logical fallacies next. Oh wait, you've already said strawman, I think I've got Bingo now.

Explain to me two things, please:

1) Worse than what? Worse, compared to what point in the past?

The reason I chose Drukhari as a point of comparison is because (at least from who I've listened to) the drukhari are the best, most customizable range GW ever produced, and the best intersection between the model having modern levels of detail, the bits in the kits being highly varied, the models having good poseability, and the bits between different models in the range being interchangeable. Also, I've built that kit like 5 times so I know it in and out.

If you think they're a bad point of comparison, what is the correct point of comparison?

2) Worse how? you claimed that the arms, heads, and torsos always had to be the same on all those troops kits, which just doesn't seem correct looking at the sprues and instructions.

Here's what you can do with the Kabalite Warriors kit:

-The arms are paired, except of course for the melee/pistol arms. You need to pair Arm A with Gun A, or else you need to either live with Arm B sitting strangely on Gun A or you need to cut at the shoulder to make them fit. Any arm can be placed on any torso.

-With the arms attached, they create a flat join at the center, so you can rotate them approximately 45 degrees until the arm hits the shoulderpad, or the gun hits the torso. This means most torsos can be posed either holding the gun up/firing, or holding the gun down.

-There is one arm in a special pose, where the model is holding the gun in one hand and a knife in the other. You must use the knife as the other hand if you want the model to be legal, since he cannot take any of the sergeant's equipment.

-Heads are on a ball joint, so you can have them facing any direction or tilted slightly for aiming or whatever.

-The legs are all the same with extremely minor variation, like a scrap of cloth or the occasional waistcloth. They are all in the same standing pose. in order to get different poses, you must use kits from other parts of the range.

-Torsos are also on a ball joint, giving you another approximately 90 degree arc of freedom before you start having weird looking models who look all twisted around. There are 2 torsos, boobs or no boobs.

So you've got six degrees of customization. Head position, head choice, waist position, arm choice, arm position, and then miscellaneous gak like the grenade packs/trophy skulls and stuff that never look good because they just look like they're glued to the model's butt.

I look at something like Primaris Intercessors, and I see:

Head position, head choice, arm choice, arm position, miscellaneous gak, shoulderpad choice.

That looks like an identically customizable kit. You trade off being able to rotate the waist for having poses that look like things an actual human standing might do instead of everyone doing a horse riding stance, and also having the ability to make a model walking or standing instead of just standing.

You also trade off being able to trade in a different torso on the Heretic Astartes. And you get a choice of Bolter, or Pistol and Chainsword, which both also only go on one way unless you take the knife to it.

Yes, the Kabalite Warrior kit exactly. Separate legs, heads, arms and a torso that doesn't mandate the specific position you put the arms in. The new kits are much worse compared to those kits. You know, how all of the Troop boxes used to be.

How long is it going to take you to realize that you don't have a point?

 Sim-Life wrote:
People who think you can't customise models need to join some Inq28 and Blanchitsu groups on Facebook. They come up with some crazy stuff. Also a bunch of the non-marine troop models (skitarii, tempestus scions, cadians, GSC off the top of my head) parts are all pretty interchangable.

I don't think its that GW discourage it I think its more that people follow instructions too rigidly.

I think the issue is less that you can't customise GW models but rather that, if you do so, there's often no way to actually represent them mechanically. Because any options or wargear that would once have represented them has long since been axed due to their godawful 'no mode, no rules' policy.

As an example, I converted these models not too long ago:




The first one was intended as an unusual Corsair Prince... the rules for which were deleted in their entirety.

The other two are models I'd like to use in my DE army... except that there isn't a single HQ able to take wings (or a Jetbike or a Skyboard or literally any other movement ability).


Now, it's entirely possible that I'm not the norm, but when I convert a model I don't just want it to sit on a shelf. I want to be able to actually use it on the field in a way that makes the conversion aspect more than pointless tassels. For example, I have no objection to saying that the scythe on the second model above is a unusually-shaped Djin Blade or that wings actually represent a Jetpack or Skyboard. The issue is when there is no longer anything to represent them because those options have been removed from the codex.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Ooh, heads and wrists. The options overwhelm me.

Even if they went on freely, which the wrists don't because they're that way so they you can also use the same five or six pairs of legs on your Dominions and Retributors as on your Sisters too, how is any of this a defence?

You're just spiralling down through whataboutisms while conceding ground at every turn, implicitly agreeing with my point that from a modelling perspective things have gotten much, much worse.

Heads and wrists, tho.

This is the most internet argument I've had in ages, lol. Accuse me of a list of logical fallacies next. Oh wait, you've already said strawman, I think I've got Bingo now.

Explain to me two things, please:

1) Worse than what? Worse, compared to what point in the past?

The reason I chose Drukhari as a point of comparison is because (at least from who I've listened to) the drukhari are the best, most customizable range GW ever produced, and the best intersection between the model having modern levels of detail, the bits in the kits being highly varied, the models having good poseability, and the bits between different models in the range being interchangeable. Also, I've built that kit like 5 times so I know it in and out.

If you think they're a bad point of comparison, what is the correct point of comparison?

2) Worse how? you claimed that the arms, heads, and torsos always had to be the same on all those troops kits, which just doesn't seem correct looking at the sprues and instructions.

Here's what you can do with the Kabalite Warriors kit:

-The arms are paired, except of course for the melee/pistol arms. You need to pair Arm A with Gun A, or else you need to either live with Arm B sitting strangely on Gun A or you need to cut at the shoulder to make them fit. Any arm can be placed on any torso.

-With the arms attached, they create a flat join at the center, so you can rotate them approximately 45 degrees until the arm hits the shoulderpad, or the gun hits the torso. This means most torsos can be posed either holding the gun up/firing, or holding the gun down.

-There is one arm in a special pose, where the model is holding the gun in one hand and a knife in the other. You must use the knife as the other hand if you want the model to be legal, since he cannot take any of the sergeant's equipment.

-Heads are on a ball joint, so you can have them facing any direction or tilted slightly for aiming or whatever.

-The legs are all the same with extremely minor variation, like a scrap of cloth or the occasional waistcloth. They are all in the same standing pose. in order to get different poses, you must use kits from other parts of the range.

-Torsos are also on a ball joint, giving you another approximately 90 degree arc of freedom before you start having weird looking models who look all twisted around. There are 2 torsos, boobs or no boobs.

So you've got six degrees of customization. Head position, head choice, waist position, arm choice, arm position, and then miscellaneous gak like the grenade packs/trophy skulls and stuff that never look good because they just look like they're glued to the model's butt.

I look at something like Primaris Intercessors, and I see:

Head position, head choice, arm choice, arm position, miscellaneous gak, shoulderpad choice.

That looks like an identically customizable kit. You trade off being able to rotate the waist for having poses that look like things an actual human standing might do instead of everyone doing a horse riding stance, and also having the ability to make a model walking or standing instead of just standing.

You also trade off being able to trade in a different torso on the Heretic Astartes. And you get a choice of Bolter, or Pistol and Chainsword, which both also only go on one way unless you take the knife to it.

Yes, the Kabalite Warrior kit exactly. Separate legs, heads, arms and a torso that doesn't mandate the specific position you put the arms in. The new kits are much worse compared to those kits. You know, how all of the Troop boxes used to be.

How long is it going to take you to realize that you don't have a point?

I don't know, long enough for you to provide any actual evidence showing the difference between the kits we're talking about? https://imgur.com/a/zeMR6aG This is what I'm looking at for CSMs.

Being able to swap the torso only matters if the actual torsos are sculpted differently. There are effectively only two torsos available in the kabalite warrior kit, boob torso and no boob torso. The number of spikes on the shoulderpads varies, but we're comparing to the CSM kit which has swappable shoulderpads. The CSM kit forces you to assemble the legs and torso together, but you end up with models walking, running, standing, leaning in different directions, versus the Kabalite kit where every single model will end up standing.

You can call that worse customizability. I would call that more customizability. If I have a particular pose I want one of my chaos space marines in, I have much, MUCH, MUCH less work to do or extra kits to buy than if I have a pose I want for one of my Kabalites. For the kabalites if I want legs in anything but a "standing" flavor, I gotta buy a Raider, or a wych kit to get those legs, and then I have to do extra work to cut and customize the wych running legs so they look like kabalite legs.

And I'm still not understanding why the arms in the two kits are distinct. Kabalite warrior arms and guns are paired, unless you want to cut them. And they create a flat join in the center where you get to decide if the gun points up or down in a fixed direction.

Chaos Space Marine arms appear to be identical. It looks like I can take parts 74, 73, and 75, assemble the plasma gun with arms, and then put it on any torso, then choose whether its tilted up in an aiming position or down in a resting position. It shows it being assembled with the 63/64 torso, but it definitely does not appear to be mandatory. Are the torsos different widths or something? What am I not seeing?

 vipoid wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
People who think you can't customise models need to join some Inq28 and Blanchitsu groups on Facebook. They come up with some crazy stuff. Also a bunch of the non-marine troop models (skitarii, tempestus scions, cadians, GSC off the top of my head) parts are all pretty interchangable.

I don't think its that GW discourage it I think its more that people follow instructions too rigidly.

I think the issue is less that you can't customise GW models but rather that, if you do so, there's often no way to actually represent them mechanically. Because any options or wargear that would once have represented them has long since been axed due to their godawful 'no mode, no rules' policy.

As an example, I converted these models not too long ago:

Spoiler:

The first one was intended as an unusual Corsair Prince... the rules for which were deleted in their entirety.

The other two are models I'd like to use in my DE army... except that there isn't a single HQ able to take wings (or a Jetbike or a Skyboard or literally any other movement ability).


Now, it's entirely possible that I'm not the norm, but when I convert a model I don't just want it to sit on a shelf. I want to be able to actually use it on the field in a way that makes the conversion aspect more than pointless tassels. For example, I have no objection to saying that the scythe on the second model above is a unusually-shaped Djin Blade or that wings actually represent a Jetpack or Skyboard. The issue is when there is no longer anything to represent them because those options have been removed from the codex.

Those look like perfect Scourge leaders to me.