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2020/02/09 20:16:26
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2020/02/09 20:33:34
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Dakka Veteran
Illinois
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.
The ven dread is cheaper too.
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2020/02/09 20:38:47
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Blood Hawk wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.
The ven dread is cheaper too.
What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2020/02/09 21:13:11
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Blood Hawk wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.
The ven dread is cheaper too.
What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...
It should only allow wounds to be taken for models with the infantry keyword?
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2020/02/09 21:37:15
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Dakka Veteran
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What makes the chaplain a steal is also its HQ slot. I see quite a few lists with an extra HQ unit or 2 without real purpose just to fill out detachments. You almost(they arent worthless and still worth something so it isnt a 1:1 points save) save a LT or tech marine in points due to the chaplain dread taking a HQ slot. Its still an expensive twin lascannon so for just pure fire power vs cost its not good at all but its those extra things that make it broken.
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2020/02/09 21:51:54
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Gadzilla666 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Blood Hawk wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.
The ven dread is cheaper too.
What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...
It should only allow wounds to be taken for models with the infantry keyword?
Makes more sense. I mean, even for a small box Dread, it doesn't scale well when Intercessors are tanking a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon from a Knight up close to it. That said, character targeting is a bit janky in general. A size stat to help determine what Characters can be protected (like a 4 could be protected by a 3 or even maybe a 2, but certainly not a 1) would go a long way. Someone proposed something similar before.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2020/02/09 21:59:48
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Regular Dakkanaut
Cymru
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Darsath wrote:
You are aware that there are players who preferred the Index era of 8th edition to the current era, correct? More isn't always better.
You are aware that nobody is forcing you to buy anything?
Play however you want. Allow others to play how they want.
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2020/02/09 22:30:21
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Gadzilla666 wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Blood Hawk wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.
The ven dread is cheaper too.
What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...
It should only allow wounds to be taken for models with the infantry keyword?
Makes more sense. I mean, even for a small box Dread, it doesn't scale well when Intercessors are tanking a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon from a Knight up close to it. That said, character targeting is a bit janky in general. A size stat to help determine what Characters can be protected (like a 4 could be protected by a 3 or even maybe a 2, but certainly not a 1) would go a long way. Someone proposed something similar before.
That was me. And possibly others, but I know for a fact I've done it.
Link to thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/777343.page
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2020/02/10 03:03:58
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Ishagu wrote:
What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?
Frankly, I don't think there is much point.
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2020/02/10 04:07:08
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Crimson wrote: Ishagu wrote:
What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?
Frankly, I don't think there is much point.
Agree.
If factions needed their subfactions fleshed out to the point of having their own codex and or supplement then the only playable faction would be space Marines, imperial flavor.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 04:11:56
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2020/02/10 04:09:04
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Walking Dead Wraithlord
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Well yea... Duhh… Everyone else is NPC.
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2020/02/10 04:19:25
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
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I dunno if everyone else is an NPC, but my personal gripe is how the new Marines have been picking up improved versions of rules like Dakka×3 or FTGG. Kinda moving to a point where the Xenos Factions will just be worse version of various SM Chapters .
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2020/02/10 04:28:07
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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The Newman wrote:the_scotsman wrote:
You present that bold part like it's your reason for disagreeing, but that part doesn't disagree with anything I said at all. BullyBoy said that we complained because Marines didn't represent their fluff on the table (true) because they weren't strong enough (which is where I disagreed). Most of the complaints I remember were about Marines not having any staying power, when in the fluff they regularly walk into and back out of war zones that would obliterate anything else. If we were complaining that Marines weren't tough enough then we didn't get "what we wished for and then some", because Marines were glass-cannon without the 'cannon' part and we wanted to lose the 'glass' instead of gaining the 'cannon'.
The assertion that GW couldn't write strong rules for Marines makes more sense in that context. GW seems married to the T4 3+ profile, and in a game where a T5 W3 2+ 4++ feels fragile there's no way to make a T4 3+ not feel like it's made of glass.
Weren't strong enough encompasses durability, not just offensive firepower. They lacked many things. Bolter discipline, doctrines and shock assault helped out a ton. Not sure GW had to go overboard with some of the other aspects, but there you are.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 04:30:23
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2020/02/10 05:01:22
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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flandarz wrote:I dunno if everyone else is an NPC, but my personal gripe is how the new Marines have been picking up improved versions of rules like Dakka×3 or FTGG. Kinda moving to a point where the Xenos Factions will just be worse version of various SM Chapters .
It's not just marines anymore. The new pa has given us a scions regiment that are better terror troops than the Night Lords. They even have their own version of "in midnight clad ".
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2020/02/10 05:43:29
Subject: Re:Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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It's great to see marines be really good again, but the problem is they have become super elite with rule upon rule, but at the same time, their points have dropped significantly too. So you are left with 2 options....nerf the heck out of the special rules, or bump points back up. The latter won't occur until December, and we know that these changes are made really early in the year before the book goes to print. This means that if GW introduces some nerfs to the rules in the Spring FAQ, they won't have time to analyze the effects before they have to make decisions about the points. That does not bode well.
I'd love to see elite marines, but at a points cost that reflects those abilities.
I think we need to see point increases for at least the following..
Intercessors
Aggressors
Eliminators
Centurions
Thunderfire cannons
Impulsors
Invictor warsuit
and a change in Chapter Master strat to 3CP.
This is not anti-marine hate btw, I use Aggressors, Eliminators and Warsuits in my Ravenguard army.
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2020/02/10 06:36:03
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Walking Dead Wraithlord
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And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd... Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 06:38:40
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2020/02/10 07:21:29
Subject: Re:Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Yeah sounds good. But it won't slow down Iron Hands. They need to lose a couple of those free rules just to bring them in line with the other chapters.
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2020/02/10 08:40:11
Subject: Re:Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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bullyboy wrote:It's great to see marines be really good again, but the problem is they have become super elite with rule upon rule, but at the same time, their points have dropped significantly too. So you are left with 2 options....nerf the heck out of the special rules, or bump points back up. The latter won't occur until December, and we know that these changes are made really early in the year before the book goes to print. This means that if GW introduces some nerfs to the rules in the Spring FAQ, they won't have time to analyze the effects before they have to make decisions about the points. That does not bode well.
I'd love to see elite marines, but at a points cost that reflects those abilities.
I think we need to see point increases for at least the following..
Intercessors
Aggressors
Eliminators
Centurions
Thunderfire cannons
Impulsors
Invictor warsuit
and a change in Chapter Master strat to 3CP.
This is not anti-marine hate btw, I use Aggressors, Eliminators and Warsuits in my Ravenguard army.
I'm down for points increases on my Salamanders and the Chapter Master strat needs to be 3cp and the hero of the chapter should be 2cp.
An Intecessor squad should be required to be taken in 10 marine squads only and they need an increase to approx 20ish pts each to account for all the stuff Astartes got. Firstborn can stay at their current levels & their min squad size of 5 to really show how they wage war in contrast to Primaris. If all the other the units that are "problems" get proportionally more expensive, they( fotm) can move on to the next hotstuff. Then I can just continue playing them like before they were broken.
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2020/02/10 08:46:57
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait
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Argive wrote:And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...
Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD
Dear god this please.
I just had no words when my opponent did this to me first time playing against his RG and plonked those damn dreadnoughts 9 " away and move, fired and charged. Felt really... Interactive...
One a bright side at least one of the dreadnoughts had an epic fist fight with a Wraithlord.
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2020/02/10 09:59:02
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Regular Dakkanaut
Cymru
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blaktoof wrote:
Agree.
If factions needed their subfactions fleshed out to the point of having their own codex and or supplement then the only playable faction would be space Marines, imperial flavor.
*Waves from Farsight Enclaves*
FSE have had a supplement in 6th and 7th editions and now PA5 is basically their 8th edition supplement.
Scions essentially have their supplement in PA5 too.
Of course this is all optional and players were perfectly well playing these factions with only the odd slight different rule for the past years/months. The additional supplements are for the very keen - they are very much optional for most players.
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2020/02/10 10:08:22
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Crimson wrote: Ishagu wrote:
What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?
Frankly, I don't think there is much point.
Completely agree. It used to be that differentiating your army was about a personal choice in playstyle. So if you wanted to play Iron Hands they were just a regular Space Marine chapter with more vehicles and a bit more of a tendency to field heavy weapons, probably with a few more Techmarines than a regular army. Salamanders would get more melta/flamer, White Scars more bikers and transports, etc. One of GW's biggest mistakes in the last 10-15 years or so, IMO, has been the explosion of rules for things that really don't need them. Not only is it a nightmare to balance it also stifles creativity. I rarely see people asking about someone's cool personal army now, like I did previously when someone showed up with a well-apinted Imperial Fists army (which was essentially SM with some self-imposed restrictions). Now the first thing anyone asks is "what rules you using", usually followed by some rolled eyes and muttering under their breath.
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2020/02/10 10:25:21
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Regular Dakkanaut
Cymru
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Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Argive wrote:And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...
Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD
Dear god this please.
I just had no words when my opponent did this to me first time playing against his RG and plonked those damn dreadnoughts 9 " away and move, fired and charged. Felt really... Interactive...
One a bright side at least one of the dreadnoughts had an epic fist fight with a Wraithlord.
You need something in your list which can deploy outside your deployment zone to block this. I realise that Aeldari are short of choices in this regard but 80pts for a huge great Webway Gate of Nope for all those RG tricks could be points well spent. If their tricks are currently costing you more than 80pts in casualties then I'd say that is a good trade. At least it looks real pretty
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2020/02/10 10:29:10
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Argive wrote:And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...
Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD
My dreads all wear sneakers, for sneaking. The Eldar never hear them coming and they hold up little signs saying, shh I'm a large bush, moving in the wind. They learned that from Creed, the tactical genius.
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2020/02/10 10:32:39
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Argive wrote:And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...
Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD
My dreads all wear sneakers, for sneaking. The Eldar never hear them coming and they hold up little signs saying, shh I'm a large bush, moving in the wind. They learned that from Creed, the tactical genius.
But creed is just Alhparius in disguise.
And alpharius is dead.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2020/02/10 10:32:44
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Slipspace wrote: Crimson wrote: Ishagu wrote:
What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?
Frankly, I don't think there is much point.
Completely agree. It used to be that differentiating your army was about a personal choice in playstyle. So if you wanted to play Iron Hands they were just a regular Space Marine chapter with more vehicles and a bit more of a tendency to field heavy weapons, probably with a few more Techmarines than a regular army. Salamanders would get more melta/flamer, White Scars more bikers and transports, etc. One of GW's biggest mistakes in the last 10-15 years or so, IMO, has been the explosion of rules for things that really don't need them. Not only is it a nightmare to balance it also stifles creativity. I rarely see people asking about someone's cool personal army now, like I did previously when someone showed up with a well-apinted Imperial Fists army (which was essentially SM with some self-imposed restrictions). Now the first thing anyone asks is "what rules you using", usually followed by some rolled eyes and muttering under their breath.
Lol anyone complaining about more variety should leave the hobby. Every faction is getting a supplement via psychic awakening creating extra variation - Scions have the exact same additional rule stacking as Astartes, as an example.
If you want to reduce faction variance go and play chess.
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-~Ishagu~- |
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2020/02/10 10:34:16
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Every faction is getting a supplement via psychic awakening creating extra variation - Scions have the exact same additional rule stacking as Astartes, as an example.
"Press X to doubt"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 10:34:32
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2020/02/10 10:35:10
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?
Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.
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-~Ishagu~- |
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2020/02/10 10:37:39
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ishagu wrote:Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?
Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.
Where have i stated what i like or dislike in regards to the rules?
Your reading comprehension aswell as your general attitude need improvement, may i suggest a Knigge Course aswell as reading some more books?
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2020/02/10 10:50:20
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Ishagu wrote:Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?
Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.
The problem is how the "thematic" rules are handled. Just giving an army blanket +1 to ap isn't very "thematic".
The rules also aren't being handed out in a very equitable manner. Compare loyalist marines to gsc for example.
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2020/02/10 10:53:52
Subject: Goonhammer LVO data discussion.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Ishagu wrote:Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?
Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.
The problem is how the "thematic" rules are handled. Just giving an army blanket +1 to ap isn't very "thematic".
The rules also aren't being handed out in a very equitable manner. Compare loyalist marines to gsc for example.
Thematic rules wouldn't be an issue, IF they would be on an equal level spread indeed.
And not just name generators and stratagems for some, whilest others get stratagems, warlord traits, build an army trait and and and.
(not even mentioning the vast imbalance in quality of some stratagems and build a trait options)
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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