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Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.

The ven dread is cheaper too.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.

The ven dread is cheaper too.

What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.

The ven dread is cheaper too.

What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...

It should only allow wounds to be taken for models with the infantry keyword?

What makes the chaplain a steal is also its HQ slot. I see quite a few lists with an extra HQ unit or 2 without real purpose just to fill out detachments. You almost(they arent worthless and still worth something so it isnt a 1:1 points save) save a LT or tech marine in points due to the chaplain dread taking a HQ slot. Its still an expensive twin lascannon so for just pure fire power vs cost its not good at all but its those extra things that make it broken.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.

The ven dread is cheaper too.

What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...

It should only allow wounds to be taken for models with the infantry keyword?

Makes more sense. I mean, even for a small box Dread, it doesn't scale well when Intercessors are tanking a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon from a Knight up close to it. That said, character targeting is a bit janky in general. A size stat to help determine what Characters can be protected (like a 4 could be protected by a 3 or even maybe a 2, but certainly not a 1) would go a long way. Someone proposed something similar before.

Darsath wrote:

You are aware that there are players who preferred the Index era of 8th edition to the current era, correct? More isn't always better.

You are aware that nobody is forcing you to buy anything?

Play however you want. Allow others to play how they want.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wait until he discovers you can make a Ven Dread with better shooting a Character too for 1CP. Sooooooo broken! Also you're not incorporating the cost of the weapons. Under your logic Warp Talons are super undercosted.

The ven dread is cheaper too.

What's amazing is people complained about that Stratagem on Leviathans out of anything , all because of an interaction from a different Stratagem too! MAYBE Martyrdom is a bit silly when it comes to a Marine taking shots going at a vehicle of any kind. Maybe...

It should only allow wounds to be taken for models with the infantry keyword?

Makes more sense. I mean, even for a small box Dread, it doesn't scale well when Intercessors are tanking a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon from a Knight up close to it. That said, character targeting is a bit janky in general. A size stat to help determine what Characters can be protected (like a 4 could be protected by a 3 or even maybe a 2, but certainly not a 1) would go a long way. Someone proposed something similar before.

That was me. And possibly others, but I know for a fact I've done it.

Link to thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/777343.page

 Ishagu wrote:

What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?

Frankly, I don't think there is much point.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?

Frankly, I don't think there is much point.

Agree.

If factions needed their subfactions fleshed out to the point of having their own codex and or supplement then the only playable faction would be space Marines, imperial flavor.

Well yea... Duhh… Everyone else is NPC.

I dunno if everyone else is an NPC, but my personal gripe is how the new Marines have been picking up improved versions of rules like Dakka×3 or FTGG. Kinda moving to a point where the Xenos Factions will just be worse version of various SM Chapters .

The Newman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


You present that bold part like it's your reason for disagreeing, but that part doesn't disagree with anything I said at all. BullyBoy said that we complained because Marines didn't represent their fluff on the table (true) because they weren't strong enough (which is where I disagreed). Most of the complaints I remember were about Marines not having any staying power, when in the fluff they regularly walk into and back out of war zones that would obliterate anything else. If we were complaining that Marines weren't tough enough then we didn't get "what we wished for and then some", because Marines were glass-cannon without the 'cannon' part and we wanted to lose the 'glass' instead of gaining the 'cannon'.

The assertion that GW couldn't write strong rules for Marines makes more sense in that context. GW seems married to the T4 3+ profile, and in a game where a T5 W3 2+ 4++ feels fragile there's no way to make a T4 3+ not feel like it's made of glass.

Weren't strong enough encompasses durability, not just offensive firepower. They lacked many things. Bolter discipline, doctrines and shock assault helped out a ton. Not sure GW had to go overboard with some of the other aspects, but there you are.

 flandarz wrote:
I dunno if everyone else is an NPC, but my personal gripe is how the new Marines have been picking up improved versions of rules like Dakka×3 or FTGG. Kinda moving to a point where the Xenos Factions will just be worse version of various SM Chapters .

It's not just marines anymore. The new pa has given us a scions regiment that are better terror troops than the Night Lords. They even have their own version of "in midnight clad ".

It's great to see marines be really good again, but the problem is they have become super elite with rule upon rule, but at the same time, their points have dropped significantly too. So you are left with 2 options....nerf the heck out of the special rules, or bump points back up. The latter won't occur until December, and we know that these changes are made really early in the year before the book goes to print. This means that if GW introduces some nerfs to the rules in the Spring FAQ, they won't have time to analyze the effects before they have to make decisions about the points. That does not bode well.
I'd love to see elite marines, but at a points cost that reflects those abilities.
I think we need to see point increases for at least the following..

Intercessors
Aggressors
Eliminators
Centurions
Thunderfire cannons
Impulsors
Invictor warsuit

and a change in Chapter Master strat to 3CP.
This is not anti-marine hate btw, I use Aggressors, Eliminators and Warsuits in my Ravenguard army.

And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...

Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD

Yeah sounds good. But it won't slow down Iron Hands. They need to lose a couple of those free rules just to bring them in line with the other chapters.

bullyboy wrote:It's great to see marines be really good again, but the problem is they have become super elite with rule upon rule, but at the same time, their points have dropped significantly too. So you are left with 2 options....nerf the heck out of the special rules, or bump points back up. The latter won't occur until December, and we know that these changes are made really early in the year before the book goes to print. This means that if GW introduces some nerfs to the rules in the Spring FAQ, they won't have time to analyze the effects before they have to make decisions about the points. That does not bode well.
I'd love to see elite marines, but at a points cost that reflects those abilities.
I think we need to see point increases for at least the following..

Intercessors
Aggressors
Eliminators
Centurions
Thunderfire cannons
Impulsors
Invictor warsuit

and a change in Chapter Master strat to 3CP.
This is not anti-marine hate btw, I use Aggressors, Eliminators and Warsuits in my Ravenguard army.

I'm down for points increases on my Salamanders and the Chapter Master strat needs to be 3cp and the hero of the chapter should be 2cp.

An Intecessor squad should be required to be taken in 10 marine squads only and they need an increase to approx 20ish pts each to account for all the stuff Astartes got. Firstborn can stay at their current levels & their min squad size of 5 to really show how they wage war in contrast to Primaris. If all the other the units that are "problems" get proportionally more expensive, they(fotm) can move on to the next hotstuff. Then I can just continue playing them like before they were broken.

 Argive wrote:
And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...

Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD

Dear god this please.

I just had no words when my opponent did this to me first time playing against his RG and plonked those damn dreadnoughts 9 " away and move, fired and charged. Felt really... Interactive...

One a bright side at least one of the dreadnoughts had an epic fist fight with a Wraithlord.

blaktoof wrote:


Agree.

If factions needed their subfactions fleshed out to the point of having their own codex and or supplement then the only playable faction would be space Marines, imperial flavor.

*Waves from Farsight Enclaves*

FSE have had a supplement in 6th and 7th editions and now PA5 is basically their 8th edition supplement.

Scions essentially have their supplement in PA5 too.

Of course this is all optional and players were perfectly well playing these factions with only the odd slight different rule for the past years/months. The additional supplements are for the very keen - they are very much optional for most players.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?

Frankly, I don't think there is much point.

Completely agree. It used to be that differentiating your army was about a personal choice in playstyle. So if you wanted to play Iron Hands they were just a regular Space Marine chapter with more vehicles and a bit more of a tendency to field heavy weapons, probably with a few more Techmarines than a regular army. Salamanders would get more melta/flamer, White Scars more bikers and transports, etc. One of GW's biggest mistakes in the last 10-15 years or so, IMO, has been the explosion of rules for things that really don't need them. Not only is it a nightmare to balance it also stifles creativity. I rarely see people asking about someone's cool personal army now, like I did previously when someone showed up with a well-apinted Imperial Fists army (which was essentially SM with some self-imposed restrictions). Now the first thing anyone asks is "what rules you using", usually followed by some rolled eyes and muttering under their breath.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

 Argive wrote:
And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...

Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD

Dear god this please.

I just had no words when my opponent did this to me first time playing against his RG and plonked those damn dreadnoughts 9 " away and move, fired and charged. Felt really... Interactive...

One a bright side at least one of the dreadnoughts had an epic fist fight with a Wraithlord.

You need something in your list which can deploy outside your deployment zone to block this. I realise that Aeldari are short of choices in this regard but 80pts for a huge great Webway Gate of Nope for all those RG tricks could be points well spent. If their tricks are currently costing you more than 80pts in casualties then I'd say that is a good trade. At least it looks real pretty

 Argive wrote:
And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...

Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD

My dreads all wear sneakers, for sneaking. The Eldar never hear them coming and they hold up little signs saying, shh I'm a large bush, moving in the wind. They learned that from Creed, the tactical genius.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Argive wrote:
And slap on the restrictions on prebattle deployment/scout move. Having 3+ units starting 9" away from you AND THEN moving/acting if you get first turn is absurd...

Apparently my CWE and their web way portal technology & rangers isn't as sneaky as a bunch of dreadnaughts XD

My dreads all wear sneakers, for sneaking. The Eldar never hear them coming and they hold up little signs saying, shh I'm a large bush, moving in the wind. They learned that from Creed, the tactical genius.

But creed is just Alhparius in disguise.

And alpharius is dead.

Slipspace wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

What's the point of having different chapters with distinctive and unique rules? Are you joking?

Frankly, I don't think there is much point.

Completely agree. It used to be that differentiating your army was about a personal choice in playstyle. So if you wanted to play Iron Hands they were just a regular Space Marine chapter with more vehicles and a bit more of a tendency to field heavy weapons, probably with a few more Techmarines than a regular army. Salamanders would get more melta/flamer, White Scars more bikers and transports, etc. One of GW's biggest mistakes in the last 10-15 years or so, IMO, has been the explosion of rules for things that really don't need them. Not only is it a nightmare to balance it also stifles creativity. I rarely see people asking about someone's cool personal army now, like I did previously when someone showed up with a well-apinted Imperial Fists army (which was essentially SM with some self-imposed restrictions). Now the first thing anyone asks is "what rules you using", usually followed by some rolled eyes and muttering under their breath.

Lol anyone complaining about more variety should leave the hobby. Every faction is getting a supplement via psychic awakening creating extra variation - Scions have the exact same additional rule stacking as Astartes, as an example.

If you want to reduce faction variance go and play chess.

Every faction is getting a supplement via psychic awakening creating extra variation - Scions have the exact same additional rule stacking as Astartes, as an example.

"Press X to doubt"

Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?

Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.

 Ishagu wrote:
Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?

Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.

Where have i stated what i like or dislike in regards to the rules?

Your reading comprehension aswell as your general attitude need improvement, may i suggest a Knigge Course aswell as reading some more books?

 Ishagu wrote:
Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?

Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.

The problem is how the "thematic" rules are handled. Just giving an army blanket +1 to ap isn't very "thematic".

The rules also aren't being handed out in a very equitable manner. Compare loyalist marines to gsc for example.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Boo hoo. Is GW writing too many thematic rules for your liking?

Lol you are in the wrong hobby if you don't like it.

The problem is how the "thematic" rules are handled. Just giving an army blanket +1 to ap isn't very "thematic".

The rules also aren't being handed out in a very equitable manner. Compare loyalist marines to gsc for example.

Thematic rules wouldn't be an issue, IF they would be on an equal level spread indeed.

And not just name generators and stratagems for some, whilest others get stratagems, warlord traits, build an army trait and and and.
(not even mentioning the vast imbalance in quality of some stratagems and build a trait options)