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Not needed, this is why Erratas exist that can fundamentally alter special or core rules.

The Iron Hands FAQ did this already. The next follow up can adjust a few other things further.

 Ishagu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The tank should cost more, not the tactics.

Wrong. That Tank (Repulsor) is overpriced in a Black Templar army and can easily be destroyed by a unit that costs half the points. Literally.

Why are you nerfing the tank when it's chapter bonuses and relics that are making the biggest improvement?

Also tactics shouldn't cost anything lol. They just need a few tweaks here and there, nothing even that substantial. You just nerd to decrease effectiveness by 10% or so in a few cases. Those are the margins.

Correct. Actually the majority of the space marine units are only good if you take them as Ironhands. A few units are better as RG.

The Repuslor executioner for example. Is very overcosted. 340ish points in it's most expensive configuration. Which is more than a friggen storm surge. Without an ironhands relic it is literally unplayable. This tank should be in the 280 point range. It is only moderately better than a LR commander. Also it is vastly inferior to 2 Admech dune crawlers. Who believe it or not have access to reroll all hits auras and have a natural 5++ save that they can reroll 1's with. 2 I think is about 240 points. 330-340 for a executioner is a dang joke.

This is the real probably with the unbalance of supplements. When a marine combo is good - 20 times more people play it. So it basically always wins just based on attrition making it look worse than it really is. Granted the Ironhands supplement is TOO MUCH. Which was pretty easy to see from the start. What people fail to realize is that most of the units in the marine codex are still really bad even with the doctrines. The doctrines were a specific fix for an entire army that was roughly 20-30% overcosted to begin with. Whats silly is they raised the cost of an executioner and left the obviously over-costed repulsor the same when both those units actually needed drops.

 Ishagu wrote:
Lots of sheep on the Internet. I'm not one of them.

Isn't that funny? Every once in a while someone comes along who doesn't just parrot others.

Professional(?) shill for GW claims he's not a sheep. That's pretty rich. Although I guess you could say that Dakka's surprisingly devoid of the cult-like reverence for GW products some boards have, so maybe you are unique in that regard... not that Dakka lacks for them either.

I'll give you props for one thing though, I can never tell if you keep replying to these topics because you're so straight faced that people think you believe what you type.

If nothing else this whole fiasco between PA and Supplements has shown that GW has learnt pretty much nothing, though maybe I'm not giving them enough credit and when 9th 'resets the clock' back to 0 and everybody proclaims them genius' who've changed their balancing act (again) I can give them due credit for recognising their fanbase have the memories of flies.

So, basically, every Supplement should have been a stand-alone Dex? Cuz if you price individual datasheets based on the Chapter rules, that's what happens.

 flandarz wrote:
So, basically, every Supplement should have been a stand-alone Dex? Cuz if you price individual datasheets based on the Chapter rules, that's what happens.

That is really the only way to balance units with an access to such variety of special rules.

Yes a separate online free codex. Updated in real time.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes a separate online free codex. Updated in real time.

That milks to low money out of the player base.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes a separate online free codex. Updated in real time.

That milks to low money out of the player base.

Make it subscription based.

I'm honestly genuinely baffled at how slow on the uptake GW has been to the digital space, though I do remember back in 3rd when they had those army list builders (think Battlescribe) on CD that were very short lived.

People get into 40k because it's an old fashioned, analogue, face to face experience that involves physical hobbying.

I think GW are right to limit their digital services. I already subscribe to multiple digital services. I like my 40k the old fashioned way lol

 Ishagu wrote:
People get into 40k because it's an old fashioned, analogue, face to face experience that involves physical hobbying.

I think GW are right to limit their digital services. I already subscribe to multiple digital services. I like my 40k the old fashioned way lol

I agree with this one general level, but the points really should be online. For free. Preferably with a armybuilder app.

 Crimson wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
So, basically, every Supplement should have been a stand-alone Dex? Cuz if you price individual datasheets based on the Chapter rules, that's what happens.

That is really the only way to balance units with an access to such variety of special rules.

I actually agree.

This entire situation has been created not because of the base Marine rules (for the most part) but because of the expanded supplements.

If an Iron Hands Primaris Eyesore is significantly more effective than the same tank in a Black Templar army, then its cost should reflect that.

So we need an Alaitoc codex? And a seperate codex for each hive fleet?
How about a seperate codex for every Astra Militarum regiment?

It's a bad idea. We need faction consolidation, there's too much as is with the likes of BA, DA and SW

Yeah, for the most part the basic Space Marine units themselves are hardly overpowered. It's the stupendous number of bolt-on freebies and insanely powerful Stratagems that break it.

In my last game against a Space Marine army, my opponent never made a single shooting attack that wasn't getting at least two non-inherent enhancement abilities to it (e.g. rerolls, modifiers, the ability to ignore pentalties, etc), more often three and sometimes four. With the narrow range D6's offer and the volume of buff abilities, it can get crazy real fast. With the way Stratagems are getting, particularly with Space Marines but not uniquely to them, there's pretty much always a way to ensure a clutch action goes off.

The game as a whole is increasingly lurching in this direction and I think all we're going to end up with is increasing numbers of 1 and 2 turn games where everything is decided by deployment and turn order as the alpha strike capabilities and general lethality spike further.

 Ishagu wrote:
So we need an Alaitoc codex? And a seperate codex for each hive fleet?
How about a seperate codex for every Astra Militarum regiment?

It's a bad idea. We need faction consolidation, there's too much as is with the likes of BA, DA and SW

Yes, it is bad idea, but you were the one who though that adding all this bonus rule bloat was a good idea and this is the only way to balance it.
(I mean it doesn't need to be separate codex, but it needs to be separate point list of every unit for every chapter, and that will be quite a number of pages.)

Ideally, yes. It's not a bad idea given the reality GW has created.

The difference between alaitoc and ulthwe is one single army wide ability, one stratagem, one character, one relic and one warlord trait.

The difference between IH and UM is 4 army wide abilities, 12? Stratagems, 6 relics, 6 WL traits, 6 psychic powers and what, 10 characters?

Not exactly apples to apples dude. Theres a fething ton of different gak.

One IH land raider wins in a duel with 2 identically equipped CSM land raiders, assuming the ih raider gets to go first. The exact same unit.

the_scotsman wrote:
The difference between alaitoc and ulthwe is one single army wide ability, one stratagem, one character, one relic and one warlord trait.

The difference between IH and UM is 4 army wide abilities, 12? Stratagems, 6 relics, 6 WL traits, 6 psychic powers and what, 10 characters?

Not exactly apples to apples dude. Theres a fething ton of different gak.

One IH land raider wins in a duel with 2 identically equipped CSM land raiders, assuming the ih raider gets to go first. The exact same unit.

Gw seems to have extreme difficulty with that concept. They think just because csm and loyalists use the same units they are the same and should be priced accordingly even when the units themselves have different abilities and rules irrespective of their factions rules.

For example look at the hellforged vs relic leviathan. The relic variant has a superior invul and the hellforged has a rule preventing it from regaining lost wounds except through killing other models in cc. Yet they have the same price. Up until the latest big faq the relic super heavys had potms and the hellforged versions didn't, while also suffering from the same rule preventing them from being repaired. Once again same cost.

Why? My money's on lazy.

 Ishagu wrote:
It's a bad idea.

Not for everything it isn't. For Marines they already do it - Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch and so on. Hell, the other First Foundings already have their own Codices, just without all the units. They'd be more worthwhile if they had all the units in there and didn't require you to purchase another book.

However...

 Crimson wrote:
... but it needs to be separate point list of every unit for every chapter...

That, however complex it would end up, is a really good compromise.

A points list for units in each supplement would be fantastic.

 Ishagu wrote:
So we need an Alaitoc codex? And a seperate codex for each hive fleet?
How about a seperate codex for every Astra Militarum regiment?

It's a bad idea. We need faction consolidation, there's too much as is with the likes of BA, DA and SW

That's funny...this was you 3 pages ago:

Lol anyone complaining about more variety should leave the hobby.

Hypocritical much? Almost as if in your ongoing quest to be as contrarian as possible you've lost track of all the different arguments you've made.

The fact remains SM are busted beyond the normal "one faction on top" level of imbalance we've seen before. Whether that's ITC, which does seeem to exacerbate the problem, or using CA missions, where even though the last GT wasn't won by SM they were still heavily represented at the top of the standings. The problem is the rules stacking that no other army gets and the only solutions I can see are to tone down that rules stacking at the supplement level or different costs for different Chapters. That doesn't mean you have to apply different costs to Ulthwe vs Alaitoc units since the differences between SM supplements are so huge they offer meaningful power boosts to some units under some circumstances.

Vaktathi's point also highlights a secondary issue. Alongside the power level of SM, there is a problem with the implementation of their rules. Players around here are starting to get frustrated at the sheer number of rules SM get, which makes them frustrating to play against and leads to the feeling that they're playing a different game to everyone else. It's not strictly about the power of the army, it's the experience of playing against them.

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
People get into 40k because it's an old fashioned, analogue, face to face experience that involves physical hobbying.

I think GW are right to limit their digital services. I already subscribe to multiple digital services. I like my 40k the old fashioned way lol

I agree with this one general level, but the points really should be online. For free. Preferably with a armybuilder app.

This is why I feel almost spoiled by Age of Sigmar. All the points are on the Warscroll Builder that GW provides and I have access to updated Warscrolls all the time through their app. The only thing I don't get free - and need the book for - is faction traits, artifacts, and command traits.

It's ishagu, what did you expect.

Giving every sub faction a seperate codex isn't needed to have varied playstyles, clearly.

The new Astartes codex and supplements have already created multiple varied playstyles. There's nothing inconsistent about what I've said - You guys should stop moving the goal posts. Psychic awakening has given other factions nearly the same volume of unique rules in some cases. Alpha Legion also have a set of relics, traits, strats, etc. As do Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc. Not as much, but not far off.

Some of you guys are literally complaining that GW have given a faction a lot of rules. Once 9th drops - and it will as history repeats itself every few years, the cycle will start again and all the complainers will forget and move on to complain about something else. I suspect many of you have a complaint fetish lol. I know someone like that in person.

 Ishagu wrote:
Giving every sub faction a seperate codex isn't needed to have varied playstyles, clearly.

The new Astartes codex and supplements have already created multiple varied playstyles. There's nothing inconsistent about what I've said - You guys should stop moving the goal posts. Psychic awakening has given other factions nearly the same volume of unique rules in some cases. Alpha Legion also have a set of relics, traits, strats, etc. As do Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc. Not as much, but not far off.

Some of you guys are literally complaining that GW have given a faction a lot of rules. Once 9th drops - and it will as history repeats itself every few years, the cycle will start again and all the complainers will forget and move on to complain about something else. I suspect many of you have a complaint fetish lol. I know someone like that in person.

Honestly, believe it or not I'm most commonly called a GW fanboy round these parts.

While GW has miraculously succeeded at the herculean task of expanding the playstyle of space marines from the one they previously had (miserable, uninteractive gunline) to the two they now have (miserable, uninteractive alpha strike) we haven't actually seen the same in any other faction coming out of PA. Sure, we see people taking IH and IF, but are those two REALLY doing much that's different from one another at the end of the day? They take slightly different mixes of units but they both just deploy on the table, squat in devastator doctrine and aim for a turn 2/turn 3 table. RG/WS is pretty much the same story, just two flavors of miserable alpha strike lists. People certainly aren't taking thematic White Scars lists with a bunch of bikers, mobile infantry and assault units.

So far, the PA books have covered, let's see... Eldar, Drukhari, Ynnari, CSM, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, and we have upcoming Tau GSC and Guard. I don't think I'm missing any there.

The only faction I've seen appearing to use the rules they got in PA to any capacity in the competitive scene are Eldar, and the Eldar lists I've seen have only changed from their previous iteration in one way - adding Vibro-Cannons, which benefit from master crafters quite a lot.

We certainly haven't seen sneaky alpha legion lists, armored iron warriors lists, leadership-based Night Lords lists, or anything like that. Chaos Soup lists are basically identical to what they were doing before, maybe with an extra relic or wl trait from PA thrown in here or there but they're taking the exact same stuff. No drukhari player will ever use the garbage custom traits from PA1. And Black Templars certainly aren't making much of a splash.

You can make theoretical statements like the new rules will bring armored companies and stormtrooper armies and close range tau back into existence, but I'm gonna take a page from your book here and say I'll believe that when I see someone, anyone able to actually win a tournament against the dominant SM chapters.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
People get into 40k because it's an old fashioned, analogue, face to face experience that involves physical hobbying.

I think GW are right to limit their digital services. I already subscribe to multiple digital services. I like my 40k the old fashioned way lol

I agree with this one general level, but the points really should be online. For free. Preferably with a armybuilder app.

This is why I feel almost spoiled by Age of Sigmar. All the points are on the Warscroll Builder that GW provides and I have access to updated Warscrolls all the time through their app. The only thing I don't get free - and need the book for - is faction traits, artifacts, and command traits.

Almost like they know AoS needs a good amount of support to get people into it and keep them there while 40k has a dedicated base they can gouge. I'm not complaining, its a free market and in this day and age you don't need to spend money on anything printed or digital if you don't want to. If GW haven't made 40k points and such for free then it means people are buying codexes and books in sufficient numbers that its more profitable to keep making books than to give them away for free in order to retain a player base.

Cry "havoc!" and let slip the Codex: Black Templars.


Also, to be a little self-indulgent, I told y'all so. Distinct rules for Marine Chapters are mutually exclusive with book consolidation, assuming that balance is not up for sacrifice. In our hypothetical triangle of "distinct rules", "book consolidation", and "balance", you only get to pick two. If you want to consolidate Marines into fewer books, you have to sacrifice distinctiveness or run into balance issues. If that is a sacrifice you're willing to make then that is a valid argument (one I disagree with, but valid).

 Ishagu wrote:
Giving every sub faction a seperate codex isn't needed to have varied playstyles, clearly.

The new Astartes codex and supplements have already created multiple varied playstyles. There's nothing inconsistent about what I've said - You guys should stop moving the goal posts. Psychic awakening has given other factions nearly the same volume of unique rules in some cases. Alpha Legion also have a set of relics, traits, strats, etc. As do Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc. Not as much, but not far off.

Some of you guys are literally complaining that GW have given a faction a lot of rules. Once 9th drops - and it will as history repeats itself every few years, the cycle will start again and all the complainers will forget and move on to complain about something else. I suspect many of you have a complaint fetish lol. I know someone like that in person.

Yeah other factions got some stuff in pa but it pales in comparison to what loyalist marines have gotten.

We may have new warlord traits and relics but without strategems that allow taking multiples of each cheaply like loyalists got you still only ever see the best ones over and over. And without the kind of internal codex balance that c:sm had you still just see the same old units played on the table.

Basically pa comes down to a few new strategems per factions unless those factions are loyalist astartes.

the_scotsman wrote:

You can make theoretical statements like the new rules will bring armored companies and stormtrooper armies and close range tau back into existence, but I'm gonna take a page from your book here and say I'll believe that when I see someone, anyone able to actually win a tournament against the dominant SM chapters.

Take a look outside the ITC mess and you'll see even tournaments with no marines in top 4 Marines and in particular IH and IF are issue yes but ITC magnifies the issue a lot. In real 40k the issue isn't as dominating as ITC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
People get into 40k because it's an old fashioned, analogue, face to face experience that involves physical hobbying.

I think GW are right to limit their digital services. I already subscribe to multiple digital services. I like my 40k the old fashioned way lol

I agree with this one general level, but the points really should be online. For free. Preferably with a armybuilder app.

This is why I feel almost spoiled by Age of Sigmar. All the points are on the Warscroll Builder that GW provides and I have access to updated Warscrolls all the time through their app. The only thing I don't get free - and need the book for - is faction traits, artifacts, and command traits.

Of course this still leaves you having to buy the book. You would be severely handicapped without those traits etc

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

You can make theoretical statements like the new rules will bring armored companies and stormtrooper armies and close range tau back into existence, but I'm gonna take a page from your book here and say I'll believe that when I see someone, anyone able to actually win a tournament against the dominant SM chapters.

Take a look outside the ITC mess and you'll see even tournaments with no marines in top 4 Marines and in particular IH and IF are issue yes but ITC magnifies the issue a lot. In real 40k the issue isn't as dominating as ITC

Gl getting that info. I have tried searching on the internet the only results I can find are ITC results. Then when I asked here a couple times if people could point me in the right direction I was met with deafening silence. I'm starting to think poeple are just making grandiose claims without actual data to back it up. But this is the internet who would do such a thing?

Edit: Phone typing is hard

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Giving every sub faction a seperate codex isn't needed to have varied playstyles, clearly.

The new Astartes codex and supplements have already created multiple varied playstyles. There's nothing inconsistent about what I've said - You guys should stop moving the goal posts. Psychic awakening has given other factions nearly the same volume of unique rules in some cases. Alpha Legion also have a set of relics, traits, strats, etc. As do Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc. Not as much, but not far off.

Some of you guys are literally complaining that GW have given a faction a lot of rules. Once 9th drops - and it will as history repeats itself every few years, the cycle will start again and all the complainers will forget and move on to complain about something else. I suspect many of you have a complaint fetish lol. I know someone like that in person.

Yeah other factions got some stuff in pa but it pales in comparison to what loyalist marines have gotten.

We may have new warlord traits and relics but without strategems that allow taking multiples of each cheaply like loyalists got you still only ever see the best ones over and over. And without the kind of internal codex balance that c:sm had you still just see the same old units played on the table.

Basically pa comes down to a few new strategems per factions unless those factions are loyalist astartes.

No one denies that marines got the most. They were also at the worst starting place.
So here is the example I would go for.

Marines Were D- Tier and their supplements brought them up to between a B+ to A++ level.
Eldar were A- and their supplement brought them to an A+.
CSM were a C+ and they were brought to a B+.
Tyranids Were a D + Brought to a C-.(Probably the only army that has any right to complain from these supplements)
AM and Tau seem to be getting maybe a grade level or a 1/2 grade level increase.

The only problem is the A++ supplements which is as always - the one or 2 overpowered codex weve had all edition.