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I'm happy to get something for both my top 2 armies (Tau and IG) but a bit disappointed they didn't give GSC more love as the faster they get out of their "hurr durr Mad Max" stolen aesthetic the better. I might just rip those pages out of the book and declare them dead.

Is that one use only? That's been a fix I've just been wanting to propose for suit units in general. Strats to fix stuff is fething stupid.

Also is there a way to run two Scion Battalions now so to not lose the bonus?

Reading goonhammers review of gsc was kinda dissaponting

No new relics or warlord traits, no special tank ace/adaptive physiology ability, subpar custom creeds, powers restricted to original creeds, and a few "okay" strategems.

Acolytes advance and charge is nice though. Even less of a reason to run purestrain though lol

I think there could had be so much more with IG and GSC, especially expansion on Brood Brothers.

I'm amused that the Scions don't get a name generator...

Wow, tau and Astra got some seriously bonkers stuff. How about two tank Ace manticores with full payload trait, firing at damage 3? Oooh yea!

This is the nail in the coffin for 8th for me. Too much killing, not enough on the board tactics (besides lining up your super combo).

I thought marines were bad and maybe GW would try to pull them back but all of this craziness for the rest of the armies just means GW honestly has checked out at this point.

I was on the fence about buying a new grey knight army and the fun of putting that on the table is kind of gone for me. Everything is a glass cannon now and if you can't land and kill your points in a turn you sure as hell aren't going to survive the counter attack.

Spamming 6 commanders, yvaraahs with max shots, oh my god the missile pods, max shot/damage tanks, valkries acting as thunder fire cannons, deepstriking plasma rapid firing all over the place, ap and ignore cover everywhere, combo stacking or else, (sorry GSC, it's not your fault)....

A small tweak to the power of marines (basic doctrines and litanies with new psychic powers would have been grand, basically the codex without the supplements) and the game would have been in a great place. Supplements + PA are creating a game that I don't want to play (too many rules, from too many sources, with too many FAQs, breaking too many basic rules, killing too much, cover doesn't matter, LOS doesn't matter, positioning barely matters...)

It's been a fun couple years to get back into the hobby but I think PA has killed it for me. Damn shame because the models are better than they've ever been, the community was fun and growing, and I was just starting to learn to enjoy painting...

Personally, I don't really like 40k as a ruleset that much either, the thing that keeps bringing me back to 40k is how much I enjoy the fluff, the BL novels and the PC games. And of course there's always Kill Team if you want to play a quick game with no comically escalating Special Rules arms race.

Huh - with the current RAW Neophyte pricing, the GSC Start Collecting set must have a damned good pt/£ ratio...

bananathug wrote:
This is the nail in the coffin for 8th for me. Too much killing, not enough on the board tactics (besides lining up your super combo).

I thought marines were bad and maybe GW would try to pull them back but all of this craziness for the rest of the armies just means GW honestly has checked out at this point.

I was on the fence about buying a new grey knight army and the fun of putting that on the table is kind of gone for me. Everything is a glass cannon now and if you can't land and kill your points in a turn you sure as hell aren't going to survive the counter attack.

Spamming 6 commanders, yvaraahs with max shots, oh my god the missile pods, max shot/damage tanks, valkries acting as thunder fire cannons, deepstriking plasma rapid firing all over the place, ap and ignore cover everywhere, combo stacking or else, (sorry GSC, it's not your fault)....

A small tweak to the power of marines (basic doctrines and litanies with new psychic powers would have been grand, basically the codex without the supplements) and the game would have been in a great place. Supplements + PA are creating a game that I don't want to play (too many rules, from too many sources, with too many FAQs, breaking too many basic rules, killing too much, cover doesn't matter, LOS doesn't matter, positioning barely matters...)

It's been a fun couple years to get back into the hobby but I think PA has killed it for me. Damn shame because the models are better than they've ever been, the community was fun and growing, and I was just starting to learn to enjoy painting...

Luckily the new streamlining 9th is right around the corner so we can go round the merry go round again.

ugh, even seeing the direct utility of a lot of this stuff for lists and models I like to run, it's all just screaming ugly power bloat to me in the worst way. Increasingly I'm thinking I'd much prefer the game without faction traits or stratagems entirely. The alpha strike potential of the game is just going to spike even more with this release, on top of the absurdity of the recent Space Marine stuff.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm amused that the Scions don't get a name generator...

By the fluff of the old codex, Progena are re-named from a list of Imperial heroes. That’s probably why. So just pick a cool name from your favorite book (NOT CHAOS OR XENO) and use that.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm amused that the Scions don't get a name generator...

By the fluff of the old codex, Progena are re-named from a list of Imperial heroes. That’s probably why. So just pick a cool name from your favorite book (NOT CHAOS OR XENO) and use that.

Robute Dorn!
Rorgal Corax!

Despite the rules bloat and power creep for everyone, most of these extras just add more utility to many units.

Now for those saying this is a step too far, what makes this too far and not all the stuff before it ? If anything this is mostly all reasonable , utility and buffing some short comings. I'd say for the Tau and IG these buffs are mostly reasonable with maybe a couple outliers. If Marines had gotten buffs like this they wouldn't be the bugbear they are now to tackle and wouldn't have say the IH game state we now live in.

So why is this the step too far exactly ? This is the 5th book of the bloat train and we still have some more on the way.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Despite the rules bloat and power creep for everyone, most of these extras just add more utility to many units.

Now for those saying this is a step too far, what makes this too far and not all the stuff before it ? If anything this is mostly all reasonable , utility and buffing some short comings. I'd say for the Tau and IG these buffs are mostly reasonable with maybe a couple outliers. If Marines had gotten buffs like this they wouldn't be the bugbear they are now to tackle and wouldn't have say the IH game state we now live in.

So why is this the step too far exactly ? This is the 5th book of the bloat train and we still have some more on the way.

I've been against the Supplements onwards because of clear power creep and bloat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Despite the rules bloat and power creep for everyone, most of these extras just add more utility to many units.

Now for those saying this is a step too far, what makes this too far and not all the stuff before it ? If anything this is mostly all reasonable , utility and buffing some short comings. I'd say for the Tau and IG these buffs are mostly reasonable with maybe a couple outliers. If Marines had gotten buffs like this they wouldn't be the bugbear they are now to tackle and wouldn't have say the IH game state we now live in.

So why is this the step too far exactly ? This is the 5th book of the bloat train and we still have some more on the way.

I've been against the Supplements onwards because of clear power creep and bloat.

I know you, but others seem to be like " This is it ! Now it's off the chain ! " You have been consistent as disliking it from the get go. Just like I've agreed and said this is obnoxious and pretty much what they did in 7th that led to the crap show we had at the end there. It's clear that this is the direction and it'll only keep growing. I was just curious as to why this is the book too far for some when its gone so bloated before this.

So here's what I have noticed since 8th edition started.

All of the editions before 8th has been a convoluted mess, I think most can agree to. GW wanted to consolidate and make the game easier to play, and they have done that for the most part. But consider what they've done to achieve that.

8th edition started with the Index, and they were barebones. If your goal is to create a competitive and also fun and somewhat balanced game, you have to take babysteps to get there.

So Index sets the bones of the game. It gives GW time to see how the game functions at the most basic level.

Then the Codex itself comes out. The codex takes what was in the index, and makes it more fleshed out. Then the game goes through several balance "patches" before...

PA is released and it adds another layer to the game. This time it can take a focus on what the army needed and what people complained about. T'au is a great example of that. Crisis Suits are better. Things like Rail Rifles might be good. etc etc.

It's not like GW had these ideas waiting in the wings. They've been essentially using us as Beta testers for the game so they can craft it into something better. It's not a bad idea if your goal is to create something that will last.

Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,

I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.

if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.

BrianDavion wrote:
if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.

Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.

I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.

You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.

Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?

Are you implying I should pirate ?

That and him not buying it doesn't make any real difference if his opponents are using it.

This too, or should I ask all players to not use their new power because I dislike it ?

AngryAngel80 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.

Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.

I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.

You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.

Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?

Are you implying I should pirate ?

I'd say Faith and Fury is pretty essential for csm in the current meta (and yeah that includes casual games).

Especially if you want a hope in hell of running a good mono legion list. (And one that actually PLAYS like the particular legion in question).

AngryAngel80 wrote:
This too, or should I ask all players to not use their new power because I dislike it ?

you could always ask, might be surprised.

I've played games where an opponent didnt like a specific rule/model/whatever, we came up w a compromise.

A once in awhile thing sure, but the fact remains people will use them, regardless. I didn't even say I don't like the buffs I just don't like being a paid beta to then have to buy it all again when it implodes and in the meantime for who I'll play I need to keep up as even for casual some of these prove to be necessary.

Unless I'll want to be tying one arm behind my back. As I am sure people would choose not to play me if I tried to say they could never use their new things because I don't like the GW practice. This isn't just a model or two or a rule or two its large changes, such as doctrines, relics, strats and for some even new units outright. I don't think its hard to predict

This is all wild off topic though. I was just commenting on the theory of why the game is going this route and my feelings of it. Like it or not these are mandatory for most players and not campaign books despite what they label them as. I can call a bat a couch but that doesn't make it one.

 Eldarain wrote:

bananathug wrote:
This is the nail in the coffin for 8th for me. Too much killing, not enough on the board tactics (besides lining up your super combo).

I thought marines were bad and maybe GW would try to pull them back but all of this craziness for the rest of the armies just means GW honestly has checked out at this point.

I was on the fence about buying a new grey knight army and the fun of putting that on the table is kind of gone for me. Everything is a glass cannon now and if you can't land and kill your points in a turn you sure as hell aren't going to survive the counter attack.

Spamming 6 commanders, yvaraahs with max shots, oh my god the missile pods, max shot/damage tanks, valkries acting as thunder fire cannons, deepstriking plasma rapid firing all over the place, ap and ignore cover everywhere, combo stacking or else, (sorry GSC, it's not your fault)....

A small tweak to the power of marines (basic doctrines and litanies with new psychic powers would have been grand, basically the codex without the supplements) and the game would have been in a great place. Supplements + PA are creating a game that I don't want to play (too many rules, from too many sources, with too many FAQs, breaking too many basic rules, killing too much, cover doesn't matter, LOS doesn't matter, positioning barely matters...)

It's been a fun couple years to get back into the hobby but I think PA has killed it for me. Damn shame because the models are better than they've ever been, the community was fun and growing, and I was just starting to learn to enjoy painting...

Luckily the new streamlining 9th is right around the corner so we can go round the merry go round again.

Except codexes, pa, etc will still work


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnonAmbientLight wrote:
So here's what I have noticed since 8th edition started.

All of the editions before 8th has been a convoluted mess, I think most can agree to. GW wanted to consolidate and make the game easier to play, and they have done that for the most part. But consider what they've done to achieve that.

8th edition started with the Index, and they were barebones. If your goal is to create a competitive and also fun and somewhat balanced game, you have to take babysteps to get there.

So Index sets the bones of the game. It gives GW time to see how the game functions at the most basic level.

Then the Codex itself comes out. The codex takes what was in the index, and makes it more fleshed out. Then the game goes through several balance "patches" before...

PA is released and it adds another layer to the game. This time it can take a focus on what the army needed and what people complained about. T'au is a great example of that. Crisis Suits are better. Things like Rail Rifles might be good. etc etc.

It's not like GW had these ideas waiting in the wings. They've been essentially using us as Beta testers for the game so they can craft it into something better. It's not a bad idea if your goal is to create something that will last.

A) you are giving them too much credit
B) gw stuff never lasts. Gw doesn't do fine tweaks to perfection but things get total changes constantly. Next codex can ignore all from past throwing good away alongside bad and start from zero again

AngryAngel80 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.

Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.

I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.

You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.

Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?

Are you implying I should pirate ?

no, I'm saying if you don't like it, don't reward them for the behavior. don't use it, and if you don't like it but other people are using the rules go play another game. because if you rush out and buy it, GW is rewarded for it. if you buy it anyway well... you're like that person who complains about loot boxes in a MMO, while buying 500 dollars worth of them for a crack at that new item.

I love the idea of PA. Another person’s ‘bloat’ is my ‘complexity’ I guess. It is money hungry but this isn’t new for GW. They are one of the most successful British companies of recent times for a reason.

The only thing I wished they did differently in PA is give all factions equal love in terms of models and rules. Some factions have obviously had favouritism.

PA6 and Thraka next and I’m really interested to see if SW get no new character (something I find very unlikely but at the same time it will make clear the disparity in how GW treats it’s poster boys compared to other factions). Obviously I’m also interested in the green skin rules. Hopefully my biker gang, mad max style army gets a boost. I love having more choices so I’d quite like these ‘not-warlord traits’ for units too ala Adaptive Physiology. Do any of the reliable French guys have rumours on the next book? Will there be a boxed set?

BrianDavion wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
if you don't like it don't buy it, go buy something you like instead.

Dude, come on, the love it or leave it is trite and sad.

I said, I liked the buffs, I'm just saying I don't like it if this is a paid beta to be sold everything all over again once they bloat to death.

You can both love a game and hate their direction or process. However if you want to compete you have to buy these, maybe not for all the factions but for marines ? Yes, for guard its a straight power jump. So all you're really saying is if you don't like it don't play.

Do you actually find the burn and churn consumer friendly ?

Are you implying I should pirate ?

no, I'm saying if you don't like it, don't reward them for the behavior. don't use it, and if you don't like it but other people are using the rules go play another game. because if you rush out and buy it, GW is rewarded for it. if you buy it anyway well... you're like that person who complains about loot boxes in a MMO, while buying 500 dollars worth of them for a crack at that new item.

I have friends who play the game, I want to play the game with them, I have to keep up unless I want to constantly be on the back foot. Ergo, I have to get these books. I mean don't buy it works for like a single model, or a lateral change releases, doesn't work for this when I have to engage doctrine marines and the like on the regular. Even in casual levels they are just pretty far above my own power level without the book, it's not a surprise though its what they baked into the system.

Your comparison is not only lame it's also false, I'm like the guy who is forced to buy a DLC I don't like because they lock advancement behind it and has friends who I play with who will buy it. My only choice is buy and play or just walk away and say see ya next edition. If all these were is campaign books with lateral differences I'd gladly ignore them, but they know that and don't make them that way for a reason.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but while this is a fine theory, we've seen GW change dramatic direction at the drop of a hat. As well, while testing is good,

I'd be much happier to beta test for them for free as opposed to have to be buying half baked product to test their theory on things just to probably have them do the more consistent thing they do and scrap it all, call no joy and just start the whole process again. Which judging by how they usually operate is the far more likely outcome.

I see this argument all the time and just don't get it. GW is not omniscient, it is impossible to know exactly how balanced thousands of rules and hundreds of units will be. You can tweek things with points changes but at some point they have to bring out new rules to stop all eldar players only using alaitoc flyers and to allow thousand sons to not have to soup etc.

Also I can't imagine any large company giving away books for free, for several years.