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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Ghaz can be "not that great", he's still way more valuable that Ragnar who feels more like a random captain.

You are evidently wrong. Ghaz looks to be over twice the cost of Ragnar and he pales in comparison.

Bingo. Nobody will pay the cost of Ghaz just for an extra attack on the charge.

JWBS wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

I own and play pretty much ALL the various armies of 40k. Do you? Anyway we were told to drop it so suggest you do that.

So you can say "sigh - AS A ******** PLAYER" with every army (in uppercase), like you did with the Space Wolves a few posts ago, and think to yourself that your opinion carries a lil' more weight SeemsGood

Sigh again - because as soon as anyone says anything that the more sensative take as a insult on their beloved ARMY X they assume and acuse them of "HATING ARMY X" and so they should be ignored. The same reason that I put i am a Marine player in sig so that its not (as is usally the case) that i am "Only" a Xenos player or "only a Sisters player" or whatever.

Is this really so hard to understand by anyone why reads the post on this forum.

It would be reeeeeaallly nice if GW would just relax their dam 'no model no rules' policy and print rules for Primaris Wolf Guard, among other things. It would certainly generate sales of multiple kits via people converting them.

I think at this point its safe to say that both Wolves and Blood Angels would be good if elite melee armies were good (or if any melee armies were good.) The problems they face now are overall 8th ed system problems related to melee being hard to deploy and easier to avoid than previous editions. If melee becomes good, these armies will do well.

In comparison, i'm not sure Black Templars or White Scars would be good, even if melee armies were viable overall.

Also, these assault doctrine armies really need an option to get into assault doctrine turn 2.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It would be reeeeeaallly nice if GW would just relax their dam 'no model no rules' policy and print rules for Primaris Wolf Guard, among other things. It would certainly generate sales of multiple kits via people converting them.

Seems unlikely as there are so many armies that would benefit from this.

They could even sell conversion kits for - just off the top of my head

Chaos Drop Pods
Ad Mech Rhinos, Chimeras, Land Raiders etc

but they don't.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It would be reeeeeaallly nice if GW would just relax their dam 'no model no rules' policy and print rules for Primaris Wolf Guard, among other things. It would certainly generate sales of multiple kits via people converting them.

Seems unlikely as there are so many armies that would benefit from this.

They could even sell conversion kits for - just off the top of my head

Chaos Drop Pods
Ad Mech Rhinos, Chimeras, Land Raiders etc

but they don't.

And/or publish conversation guides online and in White Dwarf.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Ghaz can be "not that great", he's still way more valuable that Ragnar who feels more like a random captain.

You are evidently wrong. Ghaz looks to be over twice the cost of Ragnar and he pales in comparison.

Bingo. Nobody will pay the cost of Ghaz just for an extra attack on the charge.

You'd play Ghaz to have a character that cannot lose more than 4 damage in a shooting phase. At least he is fluff and his individual strength kinda match his position in the 40K universe. Ragnar doesn't give much at all, he is basically the same as he was, plus a wound and an attack : was he played ? He is a random captain with many attacks and a rule that's a bit useless considering SW's difficulties to get into combat.

Reroll charges don't help things get into combat? Ridiculous.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Reroll charges don't help things get into combat? Ridiculous.

Space Wolves had plenty of re-roll charges since the index days.

No, it doesn't help enough charging from deep strike / outflank and it does not help you get into range to declare charges in the first place.

If you're walking around the board 6" at a time, your opponent will dictate when and where and what you fight.

That's been the main problem for Space Wolves for the past 3 years of 8th and nothing shown that is NEW (as opposed to re-roll charges, which they always had a plenty) changes anything compared to Space Wolves 2 weeks or 2 years ago.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Reroll charges don't help things get into combat? Ridiculous.

Have you heard of a SW list that revolve around units that move 6" getting into combat ? I haven't.

Just so you know but Ragnar already had the reroll charge rules, and other units have it, such as Logan Grimnar for exemple.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It would be reeeeeaallly nice if GW would just relax their dam 'no model no rules' policy and print rules for Primaris Wolf Guard, among other things. It would certainly generate sales of multiple kits via people converting them.

Seems unlikely as there are so many armies that would benefit from this.

They could even sell conversion kits for - just off the top of my head

Chaos Drop Pods
Ad Mech Rhinos, Chimeras, Land Raiders etc

but they don't.

And/or publish conversation guides online and in White Dwarf.

Weirdly they do do that - loads of interesting ones in White Dwarf for Inquisitors including plenty in power armour (which they can't take )

And of course for the Grey Knights Grandmaster babycarrier

Its all very disjointed

such as Logan Grimnar for exemple.

Grimnar only rerolls for himself, and only when he is Santa Grimnar.

Wolves, and blood angels for that matter really need a rule where they can either deep strike 6” away and charge, or disembark after a vehicle has moved and still charge or roll 1 dice for your charge roll and add 6, or roll 2 dice but always count a roll below 7 as being 7 or whatever. There could be loads of ways to do it but they need the help to get there.

Well, Blood Angels have some options.

Death Company can Forlorn Fury before the game. Stuff can re-deploy via Upon Wings of Fire. They have a 3D6 charge from deepstrike. They now have +1 charge/advance built in. They also have that key ability to shut of a bit of overwatch. Libby Dreads or Mephiston can double move.

Not all of it is perfect, but it's tools they can leverage to get stuck in.

Space Wolves have none of that. Zip. Zero. It's walk 6" a turn or hope for those re-rollable 9" charges after walking on from a board edge (at least old Grey Knights could try to get lucky with the re-rollable 9" from anywhere).

Not all of it is perfect, but it's tools they can leverage to get stuck in.

It shouldn't be perfect (note i'm not claiming you think it should). It should just make the effort have a decent chance of paying off.

Space Wolves have none of that. Zip. Zero. It's walk 6" a turn or hope for those re-rollable 9" charges after walking on from a board edge (at least old Grey Knights could try to get lucky with the re-rollable 9" from anywhere).

Ah my Wulfen failed their charge. Good game. Want to play again next week?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Reroll charges don't help things get into combat? Ridiculous.

Space Wolves had plenty of re-roll charges since the index days.

No, it doesn't help enough charging from deep strike / outflank and it does not help you get into range to declare charges in the first place.

If you're walking around the board 6" at a time, your opponent will dictate when and where and what you fight.

That's been the main problem for Space Wolves for the past 3 years of 8th and nothing shown that is NEW (as opposed to re-roll charges, which they always had a plenty) changes anything compared to Space Wolves 2 weeks or 2 years ago.

Sounds tough. Now please bear in mind that ALL THOSE PROBLEMS also apply to Ghaz' AND he's a monster. For extra lulz.

Please do keep telling me how he's better than Ragnar though ..

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Reroll charges don't help things get into combat? Ridiculous.

Space Wolves had plenty of re-roll charges since the index days.

No, it doesn't help enough charging from deep strike / outflank and it does not help you get into range to declare charges in the first place.

If you're walking around the board 6" at a time, your opponent will dictate when and where and what you fight.

That's been the main problem for Space Wolves for the past 3 years of 8th and nothing shown that is NEW (as opposed to re-roll charges, which they always had a plenty) changes anything compared to Space Wolves 2 weeks or 2 years ago.

Sounds tough. Now please bear in mind that ALL THOSE PROBLEMS also apply to Ghaz' AND he's a monster. For extra lulz.

Please do keep telling me how he's better than Ragnar though ..

Dunno about Ghaz. Orks by 40Kstats sit at a pretty respectable 51-52% win rate in tournaments (vs. Space Wolves ... 38%, lol). A year or two ago, they were even considered top tier with Lootaz, etc.. Wolves have been in the garbage dumpster for ... 15 years now?

I couldn't care less if a model or two are bad in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex). I couldn't care less if 70% of the models in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex) are bad. As long as something ... anything ... just one build or list somewhere .. would work.

Orks clearly don't have that problem. They are a staple at every tournament, were in the Top 8 at LVO, are in every team-tournament's line-up. Etc.. Orks are a solid army. Space Wolves are a dumpster fire.

All these problems are low level 8th ed problems. In 5th ed, Blood Angels and wolves would be amazingly good with these sorts of rules.

What Changed?

1) Transports went way up in cost

2) Offensive firepower has increased drastically, so its easier to kill approaching melee units/transports/deepstrikers before they can get stuck in

3) You can fallback from melee units, leaving them high and dry

4) Overwatch exists

5) Charge ranges are now random and unreliable (even if potentially further) Some units have more movement speed to compensate, but it doesn't really help

6) Cover is less available and often less useful

7) Marines are more easily killed by lots of weapon types due to AP changes

8) There used to be many melee units that still had a couple special weapons that could be useful in shooting while the unit approached/deepstruck. Not so much now (meltas).

9) Lots of melee offensive power got worse. Power fist sergeants don't wreck characters and vehicles anymore

Almost all the major rules changes of 8th ed go against foot slogging and mechanized melee units. That's the real problem.

Stop complaining that space wolves units are all 6" movement melee units, and start complaining that this sort of unit is no longer viable when it used to be and ought to be.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I think at this point its safe to say that both Wolves and Blood Angels would be good if elite melee armies were good (or if any melee armies were good.) The problems they face now are overall 8th ed system problems related to melee being hard to deploy and easier to avoid than previous editions. If melee becomes good, these armies will do well.

In comparison, i'm not sure Black Templars or White Scars would be good, even if melee armies were viable overall.

Also, these assault doctrine armies really need an option to get into assault doctrine turn 2.

I can't speak for Black Templars, but White Scars are good under the current rules. Advancing and still Charging is a strong rule, doing it with Marine Bikes and Scout Bikes is frankly kind of silly. Having reliable turn-one melee alpha strike capability and overwatch denial in an army that can shoot as well as Marines shoot right now is kind of nuts. That 5+ overwatch that everyone hates on Iron Hands and Tau? Yeah, WS have that too. (6" bubble, but it's not like you weren't going to moving-castle with them regardless.) They can pseudo-deep-strike Centurions. They might not have the best warlord traits and artifacts, but I'd argue they have the best spread of both.

They've got all the tools.

I always found the move-then-charge to be a bit strange, doubly so with how charges are either move the whole distance or stand completely still. For me it is immersion-breaking and not particularly fun. IMO if Ragnar did something like set a minimum charge distance (for example; charge rolls lower than 6 are treated as 6) with the requirement that distance MUST be moved even if the charge fails THAT would be interesting. Getting within 3" of an enemy could also make pile-ins available but also be weaker than a full charge since it would not trigger related rules.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno about Ghaz. Orks by 40Kstats sit at a pretty respectable 51-52% win rate in tournaments (vs. Space Wolves ... 38%, lol). A year or two ago, they were even considered top tier with Lootaz, etc.. Wolves have been in the garbage dumpster for ... 15 years now?

I couldn't care less if a model or two are bad in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex). I couldn't care less if 70% of the models in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex) are bad. As long as something ... anything ... just one build or list somewhere .. would work.

Orks clearly don't have that problem. They are a staple at every tournament, were in the Top 8 at LVO, are in every team-tournament's line-up. Etc.. Orks are a solid army. Space Wolves are a dumpster fire.

Hold on now. Unless the meta has already drastically changed since the FAQ 'Adeptus Astartes' are actually the top faction. Also why are you comparing a full faction (Orks) to a subfaction (Space Wolves)? What Ork clans are doing well at tournaments exactly? Evil Suns and Deathskulls? What about all the other clans? How well do Goffs and Snakebites perform?

You can't have it both ways. 'Adeptus Astartes' are doing better than 'Orks'. 'Space Wolves' are probably more competitive than 'Snakebites'.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno about Ghaz. Orks by 40Kstats sit at a pretty respectable 51-52% win rate in tournaments (vs. Space Wolves ... 38%, lol). A year or two ago, they were even considered top tier with Lootaz, etc.. Wolves have been in the garbage dumpster for ... 15 years now?

I couldn't care less if a model or two are bad in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex). I couldn't care less if 70% of the models in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex) are bad. As long as something ... anything ... just one build or list somewhere .. would work.

Orks clearly don't have that problem. They are a staple at every tournament, were in the Top 8 at LVO, are in every team-tournament's line-up. Etc.. Orks are a solid army. Space Wolves are a dumpster fire.

Hold on now. Unless the meta has already drastically changed since the FAQ 'Adeptus Astartes' are actually the top faction. Also why are you comparing a full faction (Orks) to a subfaction (Space Wolves)? What Ork clans are doing well at tournaments exactly? Evil Suns and Deathskulls? What about all the other clans? How well do Goffs and Snakebites perform?

You can't have it both ways. 'Adeptus Astartes' are doing better than 'Orks'. 'Space Wolves' are probably more competitive than 'Snakebites'.

Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

AAE still doesn't get that SW had none of the new rules that permitted "Adeptus Astartes" to become top tier in competitive matches.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

...in your opinion. I disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:
AAE still doesn't get that SW had none of the new rules that permitted "Adeptus Astartes" to become top tier in competitive matches.

Aren't you the guy who started this discussion with the insane claim that Ragnar was worse than Ghaz'? And then claimed that Ragnar 'reroll charge aura' Blackmane does "not help things get into combat"? Dear me.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno about Ghaz. Orks by 40Kstats sit at a pretty respectable 51-52% win rate in tournaments (vs. Space Wolves ... 38%, lol). A year or two ago, they were even considered top tier with Lootaz, etc.. Wolves have been in the garbage dumpster for ... 15 years now?

I couldn't care less if a model or two are bad in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex). I couldn't care less if 70% of the models in the Space Wolves Codex (or any other Codex) are bad. As long as something ... anything ... just one build or list somewhere .. would work.

Orks clearly don't have that problem. They are a staple at every tournament, were in the Top 8 at LVO, are in every team-tournament's line-up. Etc.. Orks are a solid army. Space Wolves are a dumpster fire.

Hold on now. Unless the meta has already drastically changed since the FAQ 'Adeptus Astartes' are actually the top faction. Also why are you comparing a full faction (Orks) to a subfaction (Space Wolves)? What Ork clans are doing well at tournaments exactly? Evil Suns and Deathskulls? What about all the other clans? How well do Goffs and Snakebites perform?

You can't have it both ways. 'Adeptus Astartes' are doing better than 'Orks'. 'Space Wolves' are probably more competitive than 'Snakebites'.

Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

Not according to in game key words or actual Lore.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

...in your opinion. I disagree.

your opinion doesn't change the facts.


Space Wolves are a stand alone codex, that makes them differant from say.. snakebites.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

...in your opinion. I disagree.

your opinion doesn't change the facts.


Space Wolves are a stand alone codex, that makes them differant from say.. snakebites.

You need to learn from your own signature. That is an opinion. One I don't share.

It's also off topic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

...in your opinion. I disagree.

No, objectively. Ork sub-factions do not have their own codex.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Space Marine sub-codex =/= Ork sub-factions

...in your opinion. I disagree.

No, objectively. Ork sub-factions do not have their own codex.

That is meaningless as far as I'm concerned. I don't recall any statement by GW indicating such either.

Either way - off topic. I'm reporting ant more posts that continue in this vein and apologise in advance to the mods for contributing to the off topic discussion.

So Ragnar will have 10 attacks on the charge... AND scoring additional hits on 4+ for 1 CP? And then regain a CP if he kills a character.. ?