Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Banville wrote:
Since the - 1 when hovering strat is before the battle can you not pay cps to have all your Valks with Advanced Countermeasures?

Yes you can.

 Khorzain wrote:
If you have any feedback or ideas to add to the primer, feel free to let me know, otherwise I welcome discussion on Militarum Tempestus tactics!

I might be missing something but I thought the original storm troopers regimental trait from the codex was still selectable?

Certainly it remains the best choice for Valkrie plasma 'Drop Force' specialist detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khorzain wrote:

Now our Militarum Tempestus units gain an additional <Tempestus Regiment> keyword — note that it doesn't say this replaces the Astra Militarum regiment keyword, and in fact specifies if a unit has both <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, to replace each of those with different keywords — i.e. <Storm Troopers> and <Iotan Dragons> — Storm Troopers is also not a <Tempestus Regiment> keyword.

Now again, surely this will be FAQ'd away, but RAW this seems to be correct, lol.

Clearly not the intent and I would be laughed at if I tried it at club, but still very funny

(What would you go for - extra hit on 6 and roll dice again to get hit? Or extra range and exploding 6's? )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do people typically outfit their Valks? I've never really visited the AM Tactica thread and to be honest I don't think I've seen them competitively either...

They are a fantastic alpha strike, eggs in one basket trick. Some armies slap them down, others curse it.

They have twice won the game for me in turn 1 with the oppo napping on the scenario victory conditions.

I go for the dakka bird - multilaser, rocket launchers (hit on 3+ while moving in the hover) and heavy bolters - at least one gets the heavy bolters to use the overwatch strat, and they all do if I have the points.

If I am playing someone unfamiliar with the force I might load bullgryns into a hellstrike/lascannon bird which scares people more if they haven't seen the plasma hurt before.

Has anyone considered any of the superheavies using the tank ace Strat to give them any of our doctrines and which would be best? I feel like the moral one or the ap -1 could be really strong and kind of thematic. Just imagine a doomhammer firing it's heavy bolters and tremor cannon at a bunch of marines and then just watching them scatter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ap -2 on 3 twin heavy bolts pretty strong too, not to mention the rediculous ap on the bigger guns.

I don't think that works because Baneblades and the like won't gain the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword as they aren't Militarum Tempestus units.

As far as I can see, MT detachments not only may, but must, have two regimental doctrines - the AM Codex Stormtroopers one plus a Tempestus Regiment doctrine of your choice.
Why?
OK, so MT units have the MT keyword which the AM Codex explains replaces their <regiment> keyword in all cases (p. 84). If the whole detachment has that MT keyword, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine (and since they are still an AM detachment by keyword, they can also include Auxilia without losing their doctrine.)
The Psychic Awakening supplement adds (not substitutes) the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which MUST be replaced by one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments given in the supplement. However, when they describe the regimental doctrines, guess how many are there? 7. The 6 TR doctrines PLUS Stormtroopers (which is named but references the AM Codex for the rules). The only way for an MT detachment to have the Stormtroopers Doctrine is to have it in addition to another TR doctrine, since every TR detachment MUST replace its <TR> keyword with one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments.

Counter-arguments?

I realise that the big one is likely to be intent, but if their intent was to replace the Stormtroopers Doctrine, why would they reproduce it in the doctrines list?
The other one is that functionally it is nearly identical to some of the TR doctrines and, if it is retained, means that Detachments are likely to 'double up' on additional hits on rolls of 6 (variously unmodified 6s and 6+).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I don't think that works because Baneblades and the like won't gain the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword as they aren't Militarum Tempestus units.

Right, I didn't the no about that part. Is it worth one CP for any of the other ones? Only one I can think of would be the rerolls for number of shots since the main turret weapons are so swingy

The repair doctrine seems good for baneblades.

hangnailnz wrote:
As far as I can see, MT detachments not only may, but must, have two regimental doctrines - the AM Codex Stormtroopers one plus a Tempestus Regiment doctrine of your choice.
Why?
OK, so MT units have the MT keyword which the AM Codex explains replaces their <regiment> keyword in all cases (p. 84). If the whole detachment has that MT keyword, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine (and since they are still an AM detachment by keyword, they can also include Auxilia without losing their doctrine.)
The Psychic Awakening supplement adds (not substitutes) the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword, which MUST be replaced by one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments given in the supplement. However, when they describe the regimental doctrines, guess how many are there? 7. The 6 TR doctrines PLUS Stormtroopers (which is named but references the AM Codex for the rules). The only way for an MT detachment to have the Stormtroopers Doctrine is to have it in addition to another TR doctrine, since every TR detachment MUST replace its <TR> keyword with one of the 6 Tempestus Regiments.

Counter-arguments?

I realise that the big one is likely to be intent, but if their intent was to replace the Stormtroopers Doctrine, why would they reproduce it in the doctrines list?
The other one is that functionally it is nearly identical to some of the TR doctrines and, if it is retained, means that Detachments are likely to 'double up' on additional hits on rolls of 6 (variously unmodified 6s and 6+).

The main counter argument is my opponents would just tell me not to be silly.

Something to remember is how badly written the latest rules are, witness for example the boltgun replacement for a unit that can't take a boltgun (probably means bolt pistol).

What do you guys think of this combo (image linked from Warhammer Community):



Combined with the Killing Zone strategem from Page 69 of Psychic Awakening (+1 to wound against a unit if it lost models from a Scions attack that phase)?

You could give the relic to a Tempestus Prime, have him inflict 2 mortal wounds (assuming he hits), then give +1 to wound to any Scion units shooting at the same target.

EDIT: More combos:

Lambdan Lions Warlord trait (re-roll 1s) combined with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! and the Gifts From The Mechanicus strategem on page 69 (wound rolls of 6 inflict 1 mortal wound)? Oh, and Precision Derp:

Wouldn't work, mortal wounds are afflicted on the hit roll not the wound roll. You need non regimental bonuses/rerolls to hit to buff that or just have the tempestor issue take aim on himself.

So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

Without double checking the actual RAW, I would classify it as so far out of RAI that it is hardly even worth thinking about. I don't think many people will be happy with the AND interpretation, and I think that if GW doesn't get it in the next FAQ then most events and groups would just ban it.

I think that there is enough ambiguity in the rule to ague it either way though, RAW. I'll leave that to the 73 page YMDC thread that is probably going to appear...

It might actually not stack with itself, but would perhaps allow the jakals to have a drop detachment special group. That is why I am interested in it at all.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
It might actually not stack with itself, but would perhaps allow the jakals to have a drop detachment special group. That is why I am interested in it at all.

I think that oversight will also be high on FAQ priority. Asuming that people email them to ask about it of course.

It is definitely something I would start talking about in my game groups, to see if people will let such an obvious RAI error slide until the inevitable FAQ.

If it did end up being both and not one or the other, a Kappic Eagles Tempestus Drop Force would be super busted. Extra hits on +4. +3 with Aradia Madellan (note that with the new Primaris Psyker and Wyrdvane Psyker interaction stratagem, this become even easier). +2 with that one FW Spotlight, too, right?

 gbghg wrote:
Wouldn't work, mortal wounds are afflicted on the hit roll not the wound roll. You need non regimental bonuses/rerolls to hit to buff that or just have the tempestor issue take aim on himself.

Thanks for replying! I think it could still work, but you'd need an extra Tempestor Prime to issue orders. The Killing Zone strategem only specifies Shooting phase. So one Tempestor Prime armed with the relic Fire of Judgment could inflict a mortal wound, activate the Strategem and another unit could take advantage (presumably with order buffs from another Tempestor).

I think the real fun could be the 133rd Lambdan Lions, though (see my previous post for refresher):

This requires two Tempestor Primes with separate Warlord Traits, one Valkyrie and a full squad of Scions:

Vigilus Detachment: Tempestus Drop Force
Vigilus Warlord Trait: Grav Chute Commando (+1 to hit when deploying out of a Valkyrie).
Regimental Doctrine: Extra -1AP
Regimental Warlord Trait: Re-roll 1s within 6"
Order: First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!
Relic: Laurels of Command (On a 4+, issue a second order of Bring It Down! to re-roll wound rolls of 1.
Stratagem: Gifts From The Mechanicus: Mortal Wounds from Hotshot weapons on wound rolls of 6.
2nd Stratagem: Precision Drop: Deploy from Valkyrie within rapid fire range.
3rd Strategem: Precision Drop (Vigilus): No models slain when deploying out of Valkyrie.

I'm too lazy to do the math, how many mortal wounds does that do (assuming you took a full squad of Scions with max plasma weapons)? Would Volley Guns be better?

As I read that, there's no question wether you gain something additional to Stormtroopers.
Otherwise it would say, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine and one of the following in addition (or something like that)

Edit: Just to clarify - in my opinion, they get only one single doctrine

Only thing is so far GW has never given double traits like that to one and one that is literally duplicate.

Seeing how piss poor GW is at writing rules not even understanding basic phases of their own game I wouldn't invest any money on assumption you get double bonuses like that before FAQ comes out(well that's basically good advice for any codex/supplement. Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...)

tneva82 wrote:
Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...

It depends how crazy you are going to go. Buying one or two squads of Scions because they got a new lease of life and look cool? That's fine. Buying a 2000point army with Valkyries based on the precise wording of a rule? Not a good idea.

CrabstuffedMushrooms wrote:

 gbghg wrote:
Wouldn't work, mortal wounds are afflicted on the hit roll not the wound roll. You need non regimental bonuses/rerolls to hit to buff that or just have the tempestor issue take aim on himself.

Thanks for replying! I think it could still work, but you'd need an extra Tempestor Prime to issue orders. The Killing Zone strategem only specifies Shooting phase. So one Tempestor Prime armed with the relic Fire of Judgment could inflict a mortal wound, activate the Strategem and another unit could take advantage (presumably with order buffs from another Tempestor).

I think the real fun could be the 133rd Lambdan Lions, though (see my previous post for refresher):

This requires two Tempestor Primes with separate Warlord Traits, one Valkyrie and a full squad of Scions:

Vigilus Detachment: Tempestus Drop Force
Vigilus Warlord Trait: Grav Chute Commando (+1 to hit when deploying out of a Valkyrie).
Regimental Doctrine: Extra -1AP
Regimental Warlord Trait: Re-roll 1s within 6"
Order: First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!
Relic: Laurels of Command (On a 4+, issue a second order of Bring It Down! to re-roll wound rolls of 1.
Stratagem: Gifts From The Mechanicus: Mortal Wounds from Hotshot weapons on wound rolls of 6.
2nd Stratagem: Precision Drop: Deploy from Valkyrie within rapid fire range.
3rd Strategem: Precision Drop (Vigilus): No models slain when deploying out of Valkyrie.

I'm too lazy to do the math, how many mortal wounds does that do (assuming you took a full squad of Scions with max plasma weapons)? Would Volley Guns be better?

You would get the most value out of a full squad of 9 regular dudes and a tempestor because they generate the most accurate number of shots, but even then with FRFSRF you average 4.5 6's so that's not enough to justify all that cp on traits and stratagems for that one squad.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

No, it's not written in a way that is clear, which is why there is so much speculation going on at the moment. They may have tried to specify that you choose either the old Regiment trait or the new Regiment doctrine with the following line, but I'm not sure because it says replace each instead of replace one with the other:

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

You can read it yourself here on this youtube video, the guy shows the book pretty clearly @1:06:20

Nibbler wrote:

Spoiler:

If your army is Battle-forged, all
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> units in a
MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment
gain a Regimental Doctrine selected
from those presented on the page
opposite, so long as every unit in that
Detachment (excluding the Advisors and
Auxilla mentioned below) has the same
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword

As I read that, there's no question wether you gain something additional to Stormtroopers.
Otherwise it would say, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine and one of the following in addition (or something like that)

Edit: Just to clarify - in my opinion, they get only one single doctrine

That quote is from the Astra Militarum Codex, and was written before the new Tempestus doctrines existed.

But still, I would plan tactics around only having the new doctrines, and if it turns out that we can use both, then we can all go crazy!

tneva82 wrote:
Only thing is so far GW has never given double traits like that to one and one that is literally duplicate.

Seeing how piss poor GW is at writing rules not even understanding basic phases of their own game I wouldn't invest any money on assumption you get double bonuses like that before FAQ comes out(well that's basically good advice for any codex/supplement. Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...)

The Thetoid Eagles isn't a duplicate, it's a better version of Storm Troopers — the new version makes a 6 score two hits, the old doctrine generates an extra shot on a 6 ... so if we had both then on a 6 it'd be 2 hits plus roll an additional shot, which also sounds a little unreasonable lol.

Then again, Space Marines and their Successor Chapters getting Super Doctrines also sounds unreasonable compared to what every other army has to choose from

 Khorzain wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

No, it's not written in a way that is clear, which is why there is so much speculation going on at the moment. They may have tried to specify that you choose either the old Regiment trait or the new Regiment doctrine with the following line, but I'm not sure because it says replace each instead of replace one with the other:

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

Fairly certain that the blurb you're mentioning there is meant for running mixed armies.

The more I keep reading this bit, the more it seems like it is almost certainly intended that you get Stormtroopers and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, since the <Tempestus Regiment> is added into the keywords for the units and doesn't replace the Militarum Tempestus keyword(which is how you get Stormtroopers in the first place, via an Astra Militarum Detachment being all Militarum Tempestus).

Then again, Space Marines and their Successor Chapters getting Super Doctrines also sounds unreasonable compared to what every other army has to choose from

I'm going to be blunt here:
Space Marines are, as far as they've ever showcased, the only armies that actually have these kinds of pseudo-traditional doctrinal bits and the existence of a shared kind of culture...or in some instances the shifting of an officer corps like we have with the Chapters and their Successors.

I don't know how you could really make a similar system work for other factions without watering them down to be extremely similar to the basic Codex Marines and those two First Founding Chapters that actually have Successors(Blood Angels and Dark Angels) and are still fairly close to Codex Adherent. Space Wolves don't have Successors so that's kind of a nogo zone.

 Khorzain wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So the rulebook is out and a few copies in people's hands -- what is the final word on "stormtrooper OR jakals" vs "stormtrooper AND jakals."?
I sort of assume the stormtrooper doctrine being a choice means that its a choice can only be taken one time -- otherwise, would you be "tempestes, militarum" = stormtrooper (from codex) with new keyword "tempester regiment" replaced by stormtrooper AGAIN, giving what? +2 shots every time you get a score up to six? sign my boys up!

Seriously, though, is there a clear "in the ruling" description of the two being raw and not just rai exclusive?

No, it's not written in a way that is clear, which is why there is so much speculation going on at the moment. They may have tried to specify that you choose either the old Regiment trait or the new Regiment doctrine with the following line, but I'm not sure because it says replace each instead of replace one with the other:

If your army contains any units with both the <Regiment> and <Tempestus Regiment> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units' datasheets.

You can read it yourself here on this youtube video, the guy shows the book pretty clearly @1:06:20

Nibbler wrote:

Spoiler:

If your army is Battle-forged, all
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> units in a
MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment
gain a Regimental Doctrine selected
from those presented on the page
opposite, so long as every unit in that
Detachment (excluding the Advisors and
Auxilla mentioned below) has the same
<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword

As I read that, there's no question wether you gain something additional to Stormtroopers.
Otherwise it would say, they gain the Stormtroopers Doctrine and one of the following in addition (or something like that)

Edit: Just to clarify - in my opinion, they get only one single doctrine

That quote is from the Astra Militarum Codex, and was written before the new Tempestus doctrines existed.

But still, I would plan tactics around only having the new doctrines, and if it turns out that we can use both, then we can all go crazy!

tneva82 wrote:
Only thing is so far GW has never given double traits like that to one and one that is literally duplicate.

Seeing how piss poor GW is at writing rules not even understanding basic phases of their own game I wouldn't invest any money on assumption you get double bonuses like that before FAQ comes out(well that's basically good advice for any codex/supplement. Buy no models based on codex before FAQ comes out...)

The Thetoid Eagles isn't a duplicate, it's a better version of Storm Troopers — the new version makes a 6 score two hits, the old doctrine generates an extra shot on a 6 ... so if we had both then on a 6 it'd be 2 hits plus roll an additional shot, which also sounds a little unreasonable lol.

Then again, Space Marines and their Successor Chapters getting Super Doctrines also sounds unreasonable compared to what every other army has to choose from

I copied my quote directly out of the Psychic Awakening Book...
In my opinion, the question is completely solved.

With GW it's not just what rules say but what GW intended. GW is known for having "oops we didn't intend THAT" errors. They don't even know phases of 40k so they are creating crappy rules. Just becuase rule is RAW clear in book isn't quarantee it's actually how it's going to stay after FAQ comes out.

Ergo you should always wait for FAQ with every book before investing heavily into something. Otherwise you end up with burned up money or effort.

Poor sister players who decided to start converting based on codex only to have wargear option in codex REMOVED with the FAQ(when it came after about 2 months...).

Is there btw any book that hasn't had significant errata to fix rules yet in 40k?

Use it for now but don't invest cash if that cash goes bad if errata goes against it. That's how every single codex/supplement should be approached with GW.

Can we go back to finding cool tactics, please? Assume you can only use one doctrine.

Cool tactic: take valkyrie with lascannon and hellstrike missiles. Apply Advanced Counter-measures stratagem. Repeat as CP and points permit. Hover at back of board, keeping the -1 hit ability, letting you fire at BS 4+ with a +1 to hit. Deepstrike your plasma scions anyway, or run a couple of multilas/missile pod valks to perform drop force grav chute drops with hotshot las/melta/plasma (use the Precision Drop strat to get your melta into optimal range) with the latter being best run by kappic eagles, probably (Kappic Eagles + drop force detachment = +2 to hit)

ryzouken wrote:
Cool tactic: take valkyrie with lascannon and hellstrike missiles. Apply Advanced Counter-measures stratagem. Repeat as CP and points permit. Hover at back of board, keeping the -1 hit ability, letting you fire at BS 4+ with a +1 to hit. Deepstrike your plasma scions anyway, or run a couple of multilas/missile pod valks to perform drop force grav chute drops with hotshot las/melta/plasma (use the Precision Drop strat to get your melta into optimal range) with the latter being best run by kappic eagles, probably (Kappic Eagles + drop force detachment = +2 to hit)

One or the other works as you're BS 3+ so you'll hit most things in the game on a 2+ anyways. I prefer Kappic Eagles to other regiments+drop force as your opponent can just kill the valk your warlord is in and then he's pointless and you wasted a cp on the drop force. I run 2 valks with full squads with 4 plasma and I find the kappic's relic is pretty useful. The plasma does some big boy damage on the drop and then you have 20 guys supported by valks creating another front your opponent has to deal with. However, going with what i was saying, if your opponent shoots down the valk with your warlord, you still have another one that hasn't lost any of its power.

I mentioned the drop formation as it can be useful for targeting GK tide of shadows characters or supersonic flyers and the like. You're right that you don't need the extra +1 hit against a typical predator tank in the open, but it is nice to remember for those pesky -1 hit abilities that everyone seems to have

ryzouken wrote:
I mentioned the drop formation as it can be useful for targeting GK tide of shadows characters or supersonic flyers and the like. You're right that you don't need the extra +1 hit against a typical predator tank in the open, but it is nice to remember for those pesky -1 hit abilities that everyone seems to have

thats true but I think I'd rather spend my cp on stuff like a tank ace and a WL with Old Grudges or Grand Strategist. Seems like too many eggs in that one basket, handle might break lol. However, if you get first turn it would be stringer than just the Kappic Eagles. I guess its how you feel about a coin flip.

Against Tide of Shadows, you'll probably want the bonus AP dudes.