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Tide of shadows? You smile and take 6+ inch range doctrine and fire everything at short range, -1 is a 1/4ish miss rate (3+ becomes 4+) but overall its 1.5 times the hit rate. This neatly offsets any cover bonus -- and a few path divining astropaths can make that go away too.

Played against Grey Knights last night.
They are nearly impossible to crack with plasma.

A unit of 10 paladins ate two full rounds of shooting.
It's not just tide, it's that plus trans human phys, (so only wounding on 4s), and -1 damage strat, against 4+ invuls.

My list blew Mechanised eldar off the table, but truly struggled against the Knights.

Paladins are absolutely something that can be only countered by high RoF high AP weapons.

Sounds like HSVGs would be pretty solid, then.

 catbarf wrote:
Sounds like HSVGs would be pretty solid, then.

Bingo. 3 Command squads jumping out a Valk + a full Dragons squad w/ Volleys would be able to force a decent amount of wounds on them. This requires specific Traits or Strats though to make the most of it. Full Dragon squad gets point blank efficacy for Strat efficiency.

Point blank isn't helping when they use Transhuman, their invuls don't care about your AP. According to mathhammer, 64 HSVG shots, with re-roll 1 to hits and wounds will kill 3 (9.7W).

6 Plasma guns in rapid fire with re-roll hits and wounds do about 2 wounds.

All I'm saying is don't get cocky. Grey Knight Paladins, properly supported with Sanctuary, Transhuman Phys, Shadow tide, and redoubtable defense are quite possibly the tankiest unit on the table.

Bluflash wrote:
Point blank isn't helping when they use Transhuman, their invuls don't care about your AP. According to mathhammer, 64 HSVG shots, with re-roll 1 to hits and wounds will kill 3 (9.7W).

6 Plasma guns in rapid fire with re-roll hits and wounds do about 2 wounds.

All I'm saying is don't get cocky. Grey Knight Paladins, properly supported with Sanctuary, Transhuman Phys, Shadow tide, and redoubtable defense are quite possibly the tankiest unit on the table.

Wouldn't point black efficacy be perfect then? You now wound on 4's instead of 5's which isnt affected by transhuman, and our -2 ap brings their 2+ armour up to their 4++ invuln. Isn't that perfect value?

Sounds like Kappic Eagles would be better. No -1 to HSVG, extra +1 to hit when disembarking. The recipe for as many shots as you can get. You can get +1s from point-blank efficacy, and +1 to wound from killing zone if you kill one.

You say that point-blank doesn't help with transhuman. However, if you don't use it and just fire HSVGs, then they don't have to use it. You are using 1cp to force them to use 2cp.

I've been leaning towards Kappic Eagles as thats the way I run my scions, valks and tauroxes with HSVG and plasma guns. Is their maybe an argument for the jackles? If you manage to kill 4 thats an auto failed morale, and each guy running is a crazy amount of points which forces them to auto-pass for 2 cp plus whatever other stratagems they used to help keep them alive.

Jackals seem meta dependant. Some armies just don't care about morale. If that is all you face, they are a bit bad.

Note that when I have used point blank efficacy, I have used it to make a 9 man hotshotlasgun group (the sgt's pistol is unaffected) suddenly each fire as well as a hsvg -- s4/-2/1 ... and 4 shots in short range with "fire twice" order.
It turns one 70 point squad into the firepower of rouhgly 2 squads with 8 hotshot volleyguns, against one target for one round. Its a much cheaper "bust a screen" element and much nicer as something you fear the marines are going to auspex scan out of the way anyhow. When used on such a squad, none of its effects are lost against most targets. Its a good "drop in close" unit for the gorgonnes to use, 6 inches closer than the main drop line.

 Trickstick wrote:
Jackals seem meta dependant. Some armies just don't care about morale. If that is all you face, they are a bit bad.

I mean there arent really that many that just completely ignore morale. Orks might even fail if you kill 15 from a blob thats 30 casualties. Even necrons fail morale when you kill 5. All the lists that dont worry about it including Marines and Grey Knights will have to worry about it. Aren't Nids the only truely fearless faction? (and Death Korps)

You will find that the jakals effects have a weak point -- you don't CARE if you wipe completely a 5 man scout in the backfield, but you care deeply if the enemy centurions make morale. However, your offense is signifciantly weaker than other doctrines, and you hand your enemy a few star stratagems to autopass that HE gets to pick which unit ignores your entire bag of tricks. So you might blow two command points, but oyu are left with your fragile little scions sucking back the full firepower of the other half of his centurion squads.

Also note that the language of the warlord trait (or backup warlord trait) "old grudges" plays VERY well against transhuman physiology, the one says you can reroll all your failed wound rolls, the other says that 1,2,3 allways fail as wound rolls (but does not preclude rerolls, as a result, and aha, rerolls apply to failed rolls!)
I almost always include that warlord trait in my army to deal with ... something? One big thing I need to wipe of I lose half my troops, one big target I want gone. Its underrated in most discussions!

Hi guys! I wanted to start a 1000 points scion army but i am not sure how strong it will be on table...
The list: 3-valkyries (121-point each), 2 primes, 2-10 scions with 4 plasma and 1-10 scions with lasguns as first turn drop(lasguns uses precision drop and shot on screen/infantry, plasma scion shoot vehicle). In reserves 1 command squad with 4 plasma, 1-10 scions with lasguns and another 10 men squad with 4 plasma.
All this as kappic eagles doctrine.
What do you think? Is this will be enough to eliminate or seriously cripple enemy? Because im afraid that this force in practice will do low or mediocre damage and will complete destroyed in opponent turn... So need your help!)

MrDot wrote:
Hi guys! I wanted to start a 1000 points scion army but i am not sure how strong it will be on table...
The list: 3-valkyries (121-point each), 2 primes, 2-10 scions with 4 plasma and 1-10 scions with lasguns as first turn drop(lasguns uses precision drop and shot on screen/infantry, plasma scion shoot vehicle). In reserves 1 command squad with 4 plasma, 1-10 scions with lasguns and another 10 men squad with 4 plasma.
All this as kappic eagles doctrine.
What do you think? Is this will be enough to eliminate or seriously cripple enemy? Because im afraid that this force in practice will do low or mediocre damage and will complete destroyed in opponent turn... So need your help!)

It's quite strong for 1000pts, it is very mobile. It's fairly advanced however, you might be better considering bullgryns for staying power or ratlings to camp objectives and counter characters. It does feel like GW are trying to move towards more diversity than auto-take plasma, so you may find that the situations for the volleyguns (already improved) or other weapons improve this year.

Yep but i still don't see the situation when it better to take HSVG than plasma. Against MEQ-plasma better. Against hordes-lasgun in rapid fire stronger. If HSVG will be Rapid Fire 3 it will be quite more impressive! Maybe too strong ofcource... Yes HSVG a much cheaper than plasma but effective like it? I dont think so.

HSVG has a better range, with full shots up to 24" instead of 12". I still don't think they are worth it without the Kappic Eagles doctrine.

MrDot wrote:
Yep but i still don't see the situation when it better to take HSVG than plasma. Against MEQ-plasma better. Against hordes-lasgun in rapid fire stronger. If HSVG will be Rapid Fire 3 it will be quite more impressive! Maybe too strong ofcource... Yes HSVG a much cheaper than plasma but effective like it? I dont think so.

When the D2 doesn't matter or you need lots of shots. I haven't mathed out vs Paladins earlier, but with the Strat to take off damage and wounding, Volleys SHOULD be putting out more wounds, but not by much.
I can math that out on my lunch unless someone else wants to do it.

Consider throwing in an astropath to that list, if only to fire off a malstrom a turn (he almost always makes his 15 points back) and especailly for those cases where ap-2 is struggling to overcome cover. Eliminators with cover stripped off them are just dead marines, for example, and the heavy infantry centurions in cover can be pushed back up to 4+ from 3+ against hotshots, which is a huge improvement in raw damage being put down. 4+ to 5+ for plasma isn't bad, either! Only 2 plasma guns per game need to hit for an astropath to pay off.

And. You have 3 valkyries there who are firing some 36 heavy bolter shots a roudn. AP-1 benefits greatly from an astropath stripping cover from their targets (36>18>12 saves = +2 wounds dealt per turn, if no cover because of the astropath).Make astro pathr the second a -1 to be hit spell, a valkyrie a -2 to be hit is a real annoyance to an enemy, it can be used to keep them from easily blowing the wounded birds up in later rounds.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Consider throwing in an astropath to that list, if only to fire off a malstrom a turn (he almost always makes his 15 points back) and especailly for those cases where ap-2 is struggling to overcome cover. Eliminators with cover stripped off them are just dead marines, for example, and the heavy infantry centurions in cover can be pushed back up to 4+ from 3+ against hotshots, which is a huge improvement in raw damage being put down. 4+ to 5+ for plasma isn't bad, either! Only 2 plasma guns per game need to hit for an astropath to pay off.

And. You have 3 valkyries there who are firing some 36 heavy bolter shots a roudn. AP-1 benefits greatly from an astropath stripping cover from their targets (36>18>12 saves = +2 wounds dealt per turn, if no cover because of the astropath).Make astro pathr the second a -1 to be hit spell, a valkyrie a -2 to be hit is a real annoyance to an enemy, it can be used to keep them from easily blowing the wounded birds up in later rounds.

That's all sounds good but the list is 999 points! So need to remove scions to add bolters and astropath. Unfortunately basic bs on Valkyrie is 4+ so i don't think they will do much damage... And as i said before i really afraid of that this list will do low damage and be destroyed in opponent turn... So i dont know what to change! Maybe pick only two Valkyries and on saved points took more command squads and scions... I dont know)
Maybe someones already played mono scions with new rules. Whats the results? How it going? What do you use? Maybe kappic eagles not so strong as i thought but wt and stratagem really exited me)

Strictly speaking, my list ain't PURE scion, I have some psykers and 2 or 3 indirect fire artillery each time. 3 detachments, 45 scion troop choice, 12 scion command squads, and 2 (or 3) valkyries each time.
Its close enough I reckon I can speak to your question, though.
I have been using different doctrines to see what is good and bad, over the last 5 games.

kappic eagles are nice but they also suck, because their sixes don't proc extra hits.
stormtrooper classic is much stronger when you make a drop field commander to give your sunday drop a +1 to hit (which is all kappic doctrine really gets you that's useful). You don't have to care exactly where each squad sits, becuase there isn't the io drag "closest enemy" in play.

kappic eagles drop 3 command squads and 2 10 man squads with 4 plasma each. I assume you don't bring yarrik (I always do!) for the 1 rerolls, so yeah, you get orders to emulate that OR orders to execution protocol sanction..
just counting plasma, you fire 12+8=20x2 at short range so you expect to hit with basically 39 of them, because +1 at disembark and orders to reroll 1's. You spend no CP for that, but it lacks the explosive power of the overload that scions need to rubble their opposition before return fire. Congrats, it saves 2 cp against the best option, but you can also allways lose if you don't spend cp to make the game go your way.

The best are...
Classic stormtroopers in a drop detachment with the same models doing the same stuff fires 20 plasma at short range with a +1 (from the field commander) and all their 5 and 6 rolls become EXTRA shots that ALSO hit on a 2+ and reroll 1's.
So their 40 shots hit 39 times as well, and then hit another 13 or so times.extra. Dead things don't shoot back, greatly enhancing the chances your little strike force will have a few survivors to fire again -- or to load frantically in the transports and repeat the drop. Sure, you are down 2 cp at the start, but its worth it. Care must be taken to place dropping troops so that second, third, etc firing units still have a priority target in short range. This is situational!

Similar, but differently best
iotan dragonnes have a middle place in my experience -- you blew up that enemy landraider that was shielding 5 centurrions from your guns? iotan dragons may be firing at longer range to hti the exited cents, but if they are still closest, a six is 2 hits, and its 2 hits even if you are shooting something with a minus. Situationally just as strong across the board, if that makes sense, and even slightly augmented by the ability to zip a 10 man in from deepstrike right beside a screen. This doesn't cost 2 cp to start, sure, but it does give similar benefits that will leave you carefully measuring each drop in your line to get the bonus. You can lose that bonus if your cagey opponent starts pulling troops to make your next shooter further away, too, which is another annoyance, or the unit you wiped out was the one you set your stuff to be closest to, and you are now stuck shooting something that is slightly behind a screen of firewarriors, so no extra hits. But again, situational.

The absolute worst
I played a game against space marines with the stupid jakals, in the entire game, ONE primaris more died from morale effecs, and I cost my opponent 4 cp in saves that he didn't really miss. The autopass strategem means the jakals effects underperform when it counts, and your opponent decides when that important unit ignores morale, you don't get to decide when that important unit pays attention to it. It would be great against hordes but nobody seems to be playing hordes -- maybe one game in 10 or 15 someoen breaks out the orcs. Care is only taken to be in short range, and I didn't like this doctrine at all.

Perhaps it colors my view of this that one of the last 5 games I played was against grey knights (and I shut down about half his psykers each turn!) .. and several against marines (each had at least one librarian ticking along) .. but at ;east 1 astropath was just a good all around investment, just a few denials and malstroms and cover saves removed, and you are looking at a dead centurion on the enemy side and a live squad on your side.

Valkyries with 1 cp spent (the strat) can be afforded -1 to be hit even while hovering, which shifts their bs to 3+. And ANY fire they take is not slaughtering delicate scions! I run mine as 2 mrp/2hb/1lascannon and it has been working, although I usually run only 2 or 3 in a 2000 point list. They are not useless in the drop detachment with stormtroopers doctrine specifically, because they can overwatch on behalf of oyur troops at a 4+, which is another feature that blows a CP but is unavailable to the eagles and iotans.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Strictly speaking, my list ain't PURE scion, I have some psykers and 2 or 3 indirect fire artillery each time. 3 detachments, 45 scion troop choice, 12 scion command squads, and 2 (or 3) valkyries each time.
Its close enough I reckon I can speak to your question, though.
I have been using different doctrines to see what is good and bad, over the last 5 games.

kappic eagles are nice but they also suck, because their sixes don't proc extra hits.
stormtrooper classic is much stronger when you make a drop field commander to give your sunday drop a +1 to hit (which is all kappic doctrine really gets you that's useful). You don't have to care exactly where each squad sits, becuase there isn't the io drag "closest enemy" in play.

kappic eagles drop 3 command squads and 2 10 man squads with 4 plasma each. I assume you don't bring yarrik (I always do!) for the 1 rerolls, so yeah, you get orders to emulate that OR orders to execution protocol sanction..
just counting plasma, you fire 12+8=20x2 at short range so you expect to hit with basically 39 of them, because +1 at disembark and orders to reroll 1's. You spend no CP for that, but it lacks the explosive power of the overload that scions need to rubble their opposition before return fire. Congrats, it saves 2 cp against the best option, but you can also allways lose if you don't spend cp to make the game go your way.

The best are...
Classic stormtroopers in a drop detachment with the same models doing the same stuff fires 20 plasma at short range with a +1 (from the field commander) and all their 5 and 6 rolls become EXTRA shots that ALSO hit on a 2+ and reroll 1's.
So their 40 shots hit 39 times as well, and then hit another 13 or so times.extra. Dead things don't shoot back, greatly enhancing the chances your little strike force will have a few survivors to fire again -- or to load frantically in the transports and repeat the drop. Sure, you are down 2 cp at the start, but its worth it. Care must be taken to place dropping troops so that second, third, etc firing units still have a priority target in short range. This is situational!

Similar, but differently best
iotan dragonnes have a middle place in my experience -- you blew up that enemy landraider that was shielding 5 centurrions from your guns? iotan dragons may be firing at longer range to hti the exited cents, but if they are still closest, a six is 2 hits, and its 2 hits even if you are shooting something with a minus. Situationally just as strong across the board, if that makes sense, and even slightly augmented by the ability to zip a 10 man in from deepstrike right beside a screen. This doesn't cost 2 cp to start, sure, but it does give similar benefits that will leave you carefully measuring each drop in your line to get the bonus. You can lose that bonus if your cagey opponent starts pulling troops to make your next shooter further away, too, which is another annoyance, or the unit you wiped out was the one you set your stuff to be closest to, and you are now stuck shooting something that is slightly behind a screen of firewarriors, so no extra hits. But again, situational.

The absolute worst
I played a game against space marines with the stupid jakals, in the entire game, ONE primaris more died from morale effecs, and I cost my opponent 4 cp in saves that he didn't really miss. The autopass strategem means the jakals effects underperform when it counts, and your opponent decides when that important unit ignores morale, you don't get to decide when that important unit pays attention to it. It would be great against hordes but nobody seems to be playing hordes -- maybe one game in 10 or 15 someoen breaks out the orcs. Care is only taken to be in short range, and I didn't like this doctrine at all.

Perhaps it colors my view of this that one of the last 5 games I played was against grey knights (and I shut down about half his psykers each turn!) .. and several against marines (each had at least one librarian ticking along) .. but at ;east 1 astropath was just a good all around investment, just a few denials and malstroms and cover saves removed, and you are looking at a dead centurion on the enemy side and a live squad on your side.

Valkyries with 1 cp spent (the strat) can be afforded -1 to be hit even while hovering, which shifts their bs to 3+. And ANY fire they take is not slaughtering delicate scions! I run mine as 2 mrp/2hb/1lascannon and it has been working, although I usually run only 2 or 3 in a 2000 point list. They are not useless in the drop detachment with stormtroopers doctrine specifically, because they can overwatch on behalf of oyur troops at a 4+, which is another feature that blows a CP but is unavailable to the eagles and iotans.

Thank you for detailed answer!
Yes you right i really rely on orders and for prime i will chose laurels of command and extra 24 range. And how kappic eagles stratagem works in game? Does it do impact on the game or it is complete trash? Because in theory it can boost your durability but whats on practice...
So thank you a lot again!
Will wait another answer from experienced players)

MrDot wrote:
Yep but i still don't see the situation when it better to take HSVG than plasma. Against MEQ-plasma better. Against hordes-lasgun in rapid fire stronger. If HSVG will be Rapid Fire 3 it will be quite more impressive! Maybe too strong ofcource... Yes HSVG a much cheaper than plasma but effective like it? I dont think so.

 Trickstick wrote:
HSVG has a better range, with full shots up to 24" instead of 12". I still don't think they are worth it without the Kappic Eagles doctrine.

IMO the main argument in favor of HSVGs is flexibility. They can't be mitigated by stratagems or abilities that reduce Damage or put caps on your to-wound, they have the range to drop them on an objective (or outside Auspex range) but still be able to contribute at full effectiveness, and they have both volume of fire to kill one-wound models effectively and AP to hurt bigger stuff. You don't need to burn an order to keep them from killing themselves or to get maximum firepower, which in turn means that they can be given the Tempestus special order to re-roll failed wounds against vehicles/monsters, making them actually better than plasma guns against T7/3+ vehicles outside of rapid fire range. They're also half the price of plasma to boot.

In an army that is otherwise heavily incentivized to get within half range, on weapons that are fairly short-ranged to begin with, getting full effectiveness out to 24" is pretty handy. I use a unit of 10 Scions with 4 HSVGs as midfield objective-grabbers; they're not wasting their weapons if they have to hang back, and they actually get to return fire effectively against enemies outside of 9/12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
because they can overwatch on behalf of oyur troops at a 4+, which is another feature that blows a CP but is unavailable to the eagles and iotans.

Can you elaborate? As far as I understand it, taking one of the new regiments replaces the newly-added [TEMPESTUS REGIMENT] keyword, not [MILITARUM TEMPESTUS], so you can still take either regiment in a Drop Force.

 catbarf wrote:
Can you elaborate? As far as I understand it, taking one of the new regiments replaces the newly-added [TEMPESTUS REGIMENT] keyword, not [MILITARUM TEMPESTUS], so you can still take either regiment in a Drop Force.

There is currently a weird quirk in the rules. To use the drop force you need to be in a militarum tempestus detachment. However, this term is not defined in the rules. They fixed this in an faq with this:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment?
A: A MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

However, this doesn't work with the new doctrines, and will need a new FAQ. I know that RAI is totally that you can use the new doctrines, but technically it doesn't work.

Well raw they have both stormtrooper doctrine and new one...which is also crazy. as usual need FAQ. Is there single book release that doesnt' desperately need FAQ right away?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bluflash wrote:
Point blank isn't helping when they use Transhuman, their invuls don't care about your AP. According to mathhammer, 64 HSVG shots, with re-roll 1 to hits and wounds will kill 3 (9.7W).

6 Plasma guns in rapid fire with re-roll hits and wounds do about 2 wounds.

All I'm saying is don't get cocky. Grey Knight Paladins, properly supported with Sanctuary, Transhuman Phys, Shadow tide, and redoubtable defense are quite possibly the tankiest unit on the table.

They are also one expensive unit. Trigger transhuman, switch to others killing them and stay hell away from them.

Especially outside ITC expensive solo units lose lots of power as no kill unit/kill more to go for. No surprise with real 40k vs home brewed.

No, there is not. GW is incredibly lazy and just tells us to fix it ourselves. They don't bother to look at the rules they wrote when writing new ones.

Or maybe it is that writing a game system is really complicated. Of course, GW let's too many mistakes through for my liking and could do a lot better. However, I think they are better than "incredibly lazy".

 Trickstick wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Can you elaborate? As far as I understand it, taking one of the new regiments replaces the newly-added [TEMPESTUS REGIMENT] keyword, not [MILITARUM TEMPESTUS], so you can still take either regiment in a Drop Force.

There is currently a weird quirk in the rules. To use the drop force you need to be in a militarum tempestus detachment. However, this term is not defined in the rules. They fixed this in an faq with this:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment?
A: A MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

However, this doesn't work with the new doctrines, and will need a new FAQ. I know that RAI is totally that you can use the new doctrines, but technically it doesn't work.

Oh, thanks for the clarification.

It occurs to me that, RAW, you could take a normal Astra Militarum detachment (full of non-Tempestus units), give them your own regiment name, and select Storm Troopers as their regimental doctrine.

Behold, a certified Militarum Tempestus Detachment. A++ rules clarification would FAQ again.

Is that actually legal? If so, Basilisks would be kinda funny, and dropping Vets + Special Weapon squads from Valks would be entertaining enough.

tneva82 wrote:
Well raw they have both stormtrooper doctrine and new one...which is also crazy. as usual need FAQ. Is there single book release that doesnt' desperately need FAQ right away?

No, they don't get both doctrines. You pick one of the doctrines on page 65, as per the text on page 64 which says you pick a doctrine on the next page (65). Since Stormtroopers is listed, that means you only get it if you pick it at this stage of army building.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Has anyone math hammered the number of kills against MEQ one gets for a pure squad of Iotan Dragons firing only Hotshot lasguns with FRFSRF giving them 4 shots each within 12 inches vs 4 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol?

And then compare it too the Stormtroopers doctrine and the Kappic Eagles with HSVGs and plasma's respectively????

According to my prelim numbers against MEQ 9 hotshot lasguns shooting 4 times gives you roughly the same number of kills as the 5 hotshot/4 plasma option ( for dragons). I'm trying to figure out the bonus hits now for Stormtroopers...