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General Hobbs wrote:

No, they don't get both doctrines. You pick one of the doctrines on page 65, as per the text on page 64 which says you pick a doctrine on the next page (65). Since Stormtroopers is listed, that means you only get it if you pick it at this stage of army building.

You're still an Astra Militarum detachment, and still have the <REGIMENT> keyword (Codex:AM has an explicit statement that <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> is considered to be <REGIMENT> for all rules purposes, but cannot be given to non <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> units), which allows for basic regimental doctrines to be taken. Storm Troopers is one such doctrine, and does not conflict with the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> abilities (because the latter is a keyword that is gained, not one that replaces the underlying <REGIMENT> ). The mechanical rule interaction is quite clear, and results in both Storm Troopers and an additional Tempestus Regiment doctrine activating. Whether its intended is another matter entirely.

But then you are taking two doctrines from the list, where the rules say you can take one.

 Trickstick wrote:
But then you are taking two doctrines from the list, where the rules say you can take one.

They're two separate lists, with explicitly exclusive requirements and bonuses.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
But then you are taking two doctrines from the list, where the rules say you can take one.

They're two separate lists, with explicitly exclusive requirements and bonuses.

Pretty sure you can only use the most recent set of rules. The PA book ones are more recent than the AM codex, thus override it.

And upon reading it, it appears that you cannot take Storm Troopers at all anyway. It says you must nominate which regiment its from for the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword, and you can only choose from the 6 listed to replace it. As Storm Troopers is not on that list, you can't choose it from the page opposite, as its not a valid choice for any of those regiments.

Re-reading it a second time, as I type, I realize you can in fact take any Doctrine from the list, even if it does not match the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> name you chose, as it does not say that it must be that way. In AM codex it says you must if CADIAN take "Born soldiers" the same is not true here; if you choose 54TH PSIAN JACKALS you are not forced to choose "Death from the Dark" as your doctrine. So Storm Troopers is an option, for any Regiment; but you still only get to pick one! Its very poorly written/explained.

Mostly I think we expect it to work the same as the base Codex, but it really does not RAW actually say that. It probably should though.

 Kcalehc wrote:


Pretty sure you can only use the most recent set of rules. The PA book ones are more recent than the AM codex, thus override it.

And upon reading it, it appears that you cannot take Storm Troopers at all anyway. It says you must nominate which regiment its from for the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword, and you can only choose from the 6 listed to replace it. As Storm Troopers is not on that list, you can't choose it from the page opposite, as its not a valid choice for any of those regiments.

Re-reading it a second time, as I type, I realize you can in fact take any Doctrine from the list, even if it does not match the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> name you chose, as it does not say that it must be that way. In AM codex it says you must if CADIAN take "Born soldiers" the same is not true here; if you choose 54TH PSIAN JACKALS you are not forced to choose "Death from the Dark" as your doctrine. So Storm Troopers is an option, for any Regiment; but you still only get to pick one! Its very poorly written/explained.

Mostly I think we expect it to work the same as the base Codex, but it really does not RAW actually say that. It probably should though.

Following this logic, any non-Militarum Tempestus detachment that isnt running a custom doctrine is incapable of gaining a doctrine, and cannot use its custom orders since they do not appear in PA5. Which we both know is inaccurate.

Codex:AM is still a valid source, and provides explicit details on how <ASTRA MILITARUM> keyworded units gain Doctrines. Nothing in PA5 changes those pre-requisites. Unless you want to put forth the argument that a player running from a supplement somehow loses the ability to use their parent codex?

Sterling191 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

No, they don't get both doctrines. You pick one of the doctrines on page 65, as per the text on page 64 which says you pick a doctrine on the next page (65). Since Stormtroopers is listed, that means you only get it if you pick it at this stage of army building.

You're still an Astra Militarum detachment, and still have the <REGIMENT> keyword (Codex:AM has an explicit statement that <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> is considered to be <REGIMENT> for all rules purposes, but cannot be given to non <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> units), which allows for basic regimental doctrines to be taken. Storm Troopers is one such doctrine, and does not conflict with the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> abilities (because the latter is a keyword that is gained, not one that replaces the underlying <REGIMENT> ). The mechanical rule interaction is quite clear, and results in both Storm Troopers and an additional Tempestus Regiment doctrine activating. Whether its intended is another matter entirely.

Clearly a mistake on their part, and we will see if it is FAQ'd in a week or so.

How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

Arcanis161 wrote:
How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

They're probably best in a detachment with the scion extra ap trait since it makes their gatling cannons a lot scarier and it gives the anti-tank variant of the missile launchers and autocannons a lot more bite as well. Basically hang back with a few of them with the 5+ invuln. aura and reroll 1's to command trait and you got a bonafide scion gunline.

They're also worth it with Jackals, because redeployment is AWESOME.

If we use Operative Requisition Sanctioned to add an Assassin to a pure Tempestus army during deployment, that doesn't break any of our Tempestus detachment abilities since it's not technically in the detachments, right?

Did tempestus get some mono bonus if all models in army are tempestus like marine super doctrine and sisters sacred rites? Those are lost by assasin(but not by one inquisitor)

Regiment bonus for detachment like being cadian or ultramarine or black legion those aren't lost by assasin

tneva82 wrote:
Did tempestus get some mono bonus if all models in army are tempestus like marine super doctrine and sisters sacred rites? Those are lost by assasin(but not by one inquisitor)

Regiment bonus for detachment like being cadian or ultramarine or black legion those aren't lost by assasin

Nah, from what I've read everything is based on what is in the individual detachments, not the whole army — I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something.

Ok then no worries. It works just as having detachment of cadians along. Assasin isn't part of any detachment so not ruining any bonuses that way. Sister and marine mono bonuses require entire army to have same keyword and thatss the difference.

Question, if I take a Warlord in a Tempestus detachment and give him a Tempestus relic, can I still pay CP to give Guard officers in other detachments relics from the regular AM codex?

 Esmer wrote:
Question, if I take a Warlord in a Tempestus detachment and give him a Tempestus relic, can I still pay CP to give Guard officers in other detachments relics from the regular AM codex?

Yes.

So from the Valkyrie's Grav-Chute Insertion rule:
"Models may disembark from this vehicle at any point during its move"

Does this mean that if a Valkyrie moves 40" straight forward, then it can disembark one unit at say the 20" mark, then disembark another unit at the 40" mark?

I know since it moved over 20" total both units would have to roll d6's to disembark (though that could be avoided with Precision Drop), just unsure if there's a restriction where it can't drop off multiple units at different points during its move.

Arcanis161 wrote:
How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

Taurox Primes feel like they don't provide enough benefits for how much they cost at the moment, I'm having a hard time committing 330+ points for 3 of them. I like them a lot, they're great fluffy units, but for 114 ppm you can take things like a Plasma Command Squad or another full unit of Scions — which can be deadly on their own with the new buffs.

If you take a Kappic Eagles detachment then your units get a +1 to hit after disembarking, which makes them more appealing, but I don't know if it's enough. If you position your units well, you could technically disembark the first turn and try to move your scions — but their small range limits that usage. Also consider that you aren't typically going to be disembarking the troops until turn 2 — at which point you can just deep-strike the Scions instead of using a Taurox. The catch of course is that they can't deepstrike into Rapid Fire range unless you're taking Iotan Dragons.

They do offer some protection if you have to start some of your troops on the board, but they aren't hard to kill at T6/10W/3+. The Gatling Cannon (which imo is the only good weapon choice for this edition) offers decent fire-support against GEQs, but they'll struggle to put more than a few wounds on MEQs. Lambdan Lions Taurox's get AP-1 on their Gatling, which can shred horde units — but a full unit of Scions with just lasguns (75pts) ordered with FRSRF can also pump out 36 S3/AP-2/1D shots — plus whatever buffs you give them.

It's a hard call though, Taurox Primes are almost there ... if they were 15-20 points cheaper then I probably wouldn't be so hesitant on taking a few of them.

-edit
Okay, they might actually be there, see below....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
How are Taurox Primes now? Are they worth taking?

I ask because I need to get around 32 Scion legs and torsos to use with my Cadian Hostile Environment upgrade packs to make into Kasrkin, and my FLGS has two of the Start Collecting boxes for Scions. I don't need the Commissars, and I'd only be interested in the Tauroxes if they're worth bringing.

They're probably best in a detachment with the scion extra ap trait since it makes their gatling cannons a lot scarier and it gives the anti-tank variant of the missile launchers and autocannons a lot more bite as well. Basically hang back with a few of them with the 5+ invuln. aura and reroll 1's to command trait and you got a bonafide scion gunline.

Okay, so I forgot that the Lion's 5++ and re-roll 1's aura applies to the Taurox Prime as well, that's actually quite interesting and is a big improvement ... I also just realized that Taurox's can transport Militarum Tempestus units from any Tempestus regiment.

So what if ... you take a few Lion Taurox, Scions, and a Tempestor Prime with the 5++ plus re-roll 1's aura — but fill the Tauroxes with Kappic Eagle Scion troops with Volley Guns instead, and take an Eagle Tempestor with the overwatch relic.

Turn 2 you disembark the Eagle Scions around the front of Tauroxes. Deep-strike the Lion Scions/Tempestors and the Eagle Tempestors behind the disembarked troops to give the Lion Scions & Taurox 5++/Reroll 1's, and the Eagle troops offer charge protection from the relic:
"When resolving an Overwatch attack made by a friendly 55th Kappic Eagles model within 3" of a model with this Relic, if that attack scores a hit, the target is slowed until the end of the phase. When a charge roll is made for a slowed unit, halve the result (rounding up)."

Put some Eagle Scions with volley guns from each unit within 3" of the tempestor, and wrap the rest around the front a bit like a grot shield screen. You have a very high chance of getting a 6 when firing overwatch, which means that if the charging unit is 9+ inches away they'll fail the charge. If you want to be cheeky, spend 1CP on Progeny of Conflict to give the Eagle Tempestor the Bellowing Voice warlord trait to extend his relic aura to 6"

If your Eagle Scions kill a model, you can spend 1CP on Tactical Misdirection to give your opponent's nearby units -1 to hit until they kill that scion unit.

If your opponent deep-strikes something 12" from the mini-gunline, you can pay 1 CP on Superior Intelligence (our Auspex Scan equivalent).

There seems to be a lot of options available now, oof, I'm going to have to think about this for awhile lol.

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

General Hobbs wrote:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

So we can't have one of the new regiments with drop force? What's the point then?

Robcio wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

So we can't have one of the new regiments with drop force? What's the point then?

Still needs a FAQ. Book says that you gain the Tempestus Regiment. And, that you may only choose one of the six new regiments.
Keyword—gain. So, by RAW, you still get the Stormtroopers doctrine plus one of the six new doctrines.
So, you can until there is a FAQ saying otherwise.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Robcio wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist
Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra
Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers
Regimental Doctrine.

But the units in the detachment do not get the keyword Militarum Tempestus, correct? But you could have veterans, infantry squads, Basilisks etc with the stormtroopers doctrine.

So we can't have one of the new regiments with drop force? What's the point then?

Still needs a FAQ. Book says that you gain the Tempestus Regiment. And, that you may only choose one of the six new regiments.
Keyword—gain. So, by RAW, you still get the Stormtroopers doctrine plus one of the six new doctrines.
So, you can until there is a FAQ saying otherwise.

I noticed that too last night. Why would they print the old stormtroopers doctrine as a reference to the AM book and then say you can only choose one of the new regiments? (also why reprint it then say See AM pg XX?). I wasn't on the BOTH regiment train until I noticed that detail. Its so up in the air you can only have FAQ clear this mess up at this point.

Hasn't it been 2 weeks????

Need this FAQ to drop!

So its been a month ago since the PA released...
Could someone give a full review about rules? Which is the best/worst and how overall pure scions feels in competitive meta!

MrDot wrote:
So its been a month ago since the PA released...
Could someone give a full review about rules? Which is the best/worst and how overall pure scions feels in competitive meta!

We're waiting on the FAQ because some of the rules we have are written weird

Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

 Apple Peel wrote:

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

I dont know why people started to think what they can get both the stormtrooper and new doctrines~
Its obviously you cant.
No FAQ~

MrDot wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

I dont know why people started to think what they can get both the stormtrooper and new doctrines~
Its obviously you cant.
No FAQ~

Because RAW says you do. PAGG says Scions now GAIN <Tempestus Regiment>. It does not replace the old rule for the Militarum Tempestus keyword, which gives you Stormtroopers, in the codex. It also says that <Tempestus Regiment> can only be replaced by one of the six new regiments. Stormtroopers can’t replace <Tempestus Regiment>, as it’s not one of the six new ones. People can read and put these together. That’s why. So, until the FAQ, you get both, otherwise it’s impossible to get Stormtroopers.

MrDot wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

MrDot wrote:
Guuuuuuys,please, could someone write a review about scions after weeeks of playtesting!
Will be there interesting to read how they good or bad in space marines dominated meta! And which regiment perfect for monoscions after months post PA!

If you get both Stormtroopers and a choice of new, like raw says now, my bet is Kappic Eagles for best, for getting the additional shots on a 5+ when getting out of vehicles, and getting extra shots on a 4+ when TDF units get +1 from Grav-chute commando.

If not both when the FAQ gets here, Iotan Dragons is probably your best all-rounder. Lambdan Lions if you are running lots of Taurox Primes.

I dont know why people started to think what they can get both the stormtrooper and new doctrines~
Its obviously you cant.
No FAQ~

RAW. You choose a detachment and make it filled with Militarum Tempestus units. It thus gains the Stormtrooper doctrine.

You then gain a <Tempestus Regiment> keyword from PAGG. Note the rule says gain, not replace or lose. YOu then pick one of the 6 choices. From there, you get a Regimental doctrine. At no point in the process do you ever lose the Militarum Tempestus keyword, so you always keep the Stormtrooper doctrine.

Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if that's really the case there's no reason to not go Dragons.

Until the FAQ clears things up.