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 Frazzled wrote:
Whats the issue. You only need two terms.

Texas, and Not Texas.

Also I thought the proper term for the UK was Old Blighty?

Blighty will do, so will Albion, and we like to sneak in a 'Perfidious' prefix as a nose rub to old Boney.
However this particular piece of Not Texas has a proper descriptor:

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Henry wrote:
The whole planet is buggered when it comes to Finland.

I just call it Finland, and won't get sore about it.

I think it depends what language you're speaking. If you're speaking English, it's fine to use the English name for a place kr country. If you're speaking a different language, use that language's term for the place.

Just don't -ever- tell me I'm from Holland. That's comparable to telling a Scotsman he's English or saying to a Texan he's a Yankee in both geographical accuracy and level of insult.

First World issues...
You speak English, so use English words. The name are the real names, they are just a translation.
I thought about this actually a few years ago, so I understand how and why you came to this, but really it can only bring bad things. What next ? Should we call foreign products by their foreign names ?
And what about the accents ? France in French and France in English look the same, but are pronounced differently. Does that count ? It's clearly different to hear, like two different words.
It's a never ending and useless issue.

Bran Dawri wrote:


Just don't -ever- tell me I'm from Holland.

Well according to your flag you're from Angola...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Do Spanish people say ‘England’? Do the French? How about Germans?

No?

Then why should we use the national name for their country when they don’t for our own? Seems very odd.

England is England in German too...

This cherrypick would be significantly less garbage if the pronunciation wasn’t totally different.

Also enjoy saying the actual full Thai name for the city of Bangkok. It’s basically a paragraph.

Btw on topic of country names japan generally uses loanwords for them(though pronounciation is somewhat different. Furansu for french. America is fairly easy as amerika just fitting to lack of c in their writing system). For many countries they do have native words used in more formal cases. French can be referred as fukkoku(仏国). Americe has meanwhile Beikoku(米国). I have seen american one on news once. Generally though everybody i have met has used "amerika".

Except one old lady who had no idea what country i was talking about with amerika. Switch to beikoku and instant "aha!"

Guess paying some attention to formal country names paid off.

But at least in japan on spoken speech they generally use english name altered to fit their alphabet.

tneva82 wrote:
Btw on topic of country names japan generally uses loanwords for them(though pronounciation is somewhat different. Furansu for french. America is fairly easy as amerika just fitting to lack of c in their writing system). For many countries they do have native words used in more formal cases. French can be referred as fukkoku(仏国). Americe has meanwhile Beikoku(米国). I have seen american one on news once. Generally though everybody i have met has used "amerika".

Except one old lady who had no idea what country i was talking about with amerika. Switch to beikoku and instant "aha!"

Guess paying some attention to formal country names paid off.

But at least in japan on spoken speech they generally use english name altered to fit their alphabet.

I'm not at all familiar with East Asian languages. What do you mean by 'lack of c in their writing system'? Their system presumably has a character that represents a 'keh' sound? That's like me saying Hebrew doesn't have an S. It doesn't, but sin and samech both make an 'ess' sound.

Ir do you mean that when they transliterate into a Roman system they never use a C? That's interesting.

well they have writing system that goes like this:

aeiuo <- those are vowels.

for consonants they use k, s, t, n, h, m, y, r, w.

For most they have consotant + vowel so:

ka, ki, ku, ke, ko

(note this on most commonly accepted hephern(?) system to write japanese with roman letters. In japanese all sounds are one letter so it's not literally consonant+vowel but one letter symbolizing specific sound)

there's some changes like no si but instead shi and no ti(like in my name) which is chi. Also y has just ya, yu and yo. w has basically wa and wo(pronounced o).

Then some have voice changes so you can have ha ba and pa.

n can appear on it's own though and there's some additional rules giving nya, mya, kya etc

No real way to have 2 consonants like sk together. n+other only.

So basically anything that doesn't fit to that has to be approximated to closest approximate which leaves sometimes odd ones(u's are generally very silent though which helps) and they have for loanwords couple additional things(for ti there's way to use te + small i to symbolize it) but you still end up with stuff like igirisu for england(And yeah that's real word) or kaosu for chaos. Or supeesu(note the long e) for space.

Sometimes they are easy especially in spoken word but especially in written form those can be tricky to read at times. Sometimes I have had to literally pronounce it aloud and altering speed and trying silent vowels to make sense of new loanword. For added fun they generally use how english is pronounced rather than written on making loanwords for them.

And note no l and are separated. They have one sound that's sort of mix of those. That's why japanese people who speak english often mix l and r. One of my former japanese teachers has lived in Finland for couple decade and even she still mixed those two. If you ever hear japanese person speaking english and wonder why l's and r's sound funny that's the reason. In native japanese there's no distinction. Ra ri ru re ro is common way to write that in latin letters but it's not quite as strong are as english/finnish r. But as such Finland in japanese is written フィンランド. Fu, small i(to generate fi), n, ra, n, do. Finrando. America is アメリカ. A, me, ri, ka. Note both have "r" in them though in english it's are vs l

In case of Poland, this boils down to practicalities - how many of you can properly pronounce sz, ś, si, cz, ch/h, ć, ci, rz/ż, dż, dzi, ź, zi, dź, ą, ę, or ł? English speakers usually cannot also pronounce w properly. There is a classic polish comedy, where camp prisoner mocks German officer with his name and provenance "Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz, Chrząszczydrzewoszyce powiat Łękołody". This is a trope that is 50 years old now, but remains ever accurate - it is sometimes painstaikingly hard to understand someone who tries to use polish words without proper education in using polish language.

So let Warszawa be Warsaw (this one is especially dear to us because of "war saw" alternative meaning), Kraków be Cracow, Łódź be Lodz, and Gdańsk be Gdansk. Heck, even in written language you cannot type in half of those letters, this very forum inputs code every time I try to write [/code]ć or [list]ł.

That said, we do have a problem when someone uses german names for currently polish cities, so if you do not want to offend anyone do not use Breslau, Posen or Danzig.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:


Just don't -ever- tell me I'm from Holland.

Well according to your flag you're from Angola...

That's because I'm currently in Angola for work . Born and bred Dutchman from the civilized part of the country though.

On top of country names?

For those of us in the customer service area? Do you feel it’s important to try to pronounce someone’s name properly?

Bearing in mind that due to Data Protection laws in the U.K., I need to ask you your name before I ask how you pronounce your name.

I feel it is important, as it sets you off on the right foot. Show respect for their name, show respect for the person and by extension their complaint. Plus, it’s a terribly British trope of ‘loudly speak at the foreigner, especially in their own country, and simply repeat slower and louder until Johnny Foreigner gets it’.

Me? I’ve found various pronounciation websites online. And if, to use the example above, my consumer is Polish? You bet your sweet bippy I’m hitting up those websites first - and then double checking the consumer I’ve got it right.

I don’t go so far as to say it in anything than my own accent. That’s just.....cretinous, to my mind.

But to research it and at least have the old oxford try at it I feel is essential.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So OK, we don't say Spain we say Espania, we don't say Zhong Guo we say China, we don't say Bharat we say India etc, etc, etc.

Though we do say Cote d'Ivorie rather than the Ivory Coast these days...

But it's good manners to call people and places by their real names, when I meet someone from overseas I can hardly say 'your name's weird I'm calling you Fred'.

In the 80s we moved from older names for Chinese cities (mainly based on Cantonese pronunciations from the days when most trade was with the south the capital was in Nanking/Nanjing) to Pinyin/Mandarin-derived names. Peiking to Beijing etc.

India has also been pushing this, it's almost become a nationalist badge for politicians to rename (or de-rename) cities though in some cases the 'original' name is of dubious authenticity.

Anyho, my question is should English speakers (or at least opinion leaders like governments, publishers, newspapers) make an effort to call countries by their own names rather than the Anglicized versions we're accustomed to?

English is the defacto world language these days so things like the Olympics and UN order countries by their English names, ignoring their local names.

It would be hard to get used to new spellings and pronunciations but English spelling is such a cluster #$%^ already would Zhong Guo (pronounced Jung Gwo if you're wondering) really offend any delicate sensibilities?

Or does no one care? Deutchland after all has had plenty of time to object if it minds being called Germany. I'd love to hear from Dakkites from non-English speaking countries on this.

The only people who overly worry about such are English speakers who perpetually fear offending others.


Use common sense. If you are speaking English, use the English terminology. If you are speaking the local lingo, use the terminology appropriate to the language in question. Simple as.

Interesting comment. And I’m not being sarcastic.

I’d always just assumed it was us Brits, what with the colonial era, that have an interest in getting it right!

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


The only people who overly worry about such are English speakers who perpetually fear offending others.

Use common sense. If you are speaking English, use the English terminology. If you are speaking the local lingo, use the terminology appropriate to the language in question. Simple as.

Its not a well meaning worry, the concern for causing offence is a burden placed on third parties by those who want to generate political leverage by doing so. That is the core dynamic of political correctness.
There is a deep logic to it, but it's public application doesn't require any common sense.

nou wrote:
In case of Poland, this boils down to practicalities - how many of you can properly pronounce sz, ś, si, cz, ch/h, ć, ci, rz/ż, dż, dzi, ź, zi, dź, ą, ę, or ł? English speakers usually cannot also pronounce w properly. There is a classic polish comedy, where camp prisoner mocks German officer with his name and provenance "Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz, Chrząszczydrzewoszyce powiat Łękołody". This is a trope that is 50 years old now, but remains ever accurate - it is sometimes painstaikingly hard to understand someone who tries to use polish words without proper education in using polish language.

So let Warszawa be Warsaw (this one is especially dear to us because of "war saw" alternative meaning), Kraków be Cracow, Łódź be Lodz, and Gdańsk be Gdansk. Heck, even in written language you cannot type in half of those letters, this very forum inputs code every time I try to write [/code]ć or [list]ł.

That said, we do have a problem when someone uses german names for currently polish cities, so if you do not want to offend anyone do not use Breslau, Posen or Danzig.

Ha , don't Start with those, i am still in amazement about Aussies attempting to emulate Zürich only for a dutch Tourist pronuncing it completely perfect. Then again the CH Sound in Swiss german and dutch are really close

Also on the last matter Part , quite a lot of These regions were multiethnic as most regions were in europe until most of the states future elites decided to go full moron ethnonationalistic.

Quite a lot of namens for cities for that matter alone have 2+ and we would do good remembering this Next time a border Dispute happens, because we know what the alternative will bring, well should know.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On top of country names?

For those of us in the customer service area? Do you feel it’s important to try to pronounce someone’s name properly?

Bearing in mind that due to Data Protection laws in the U.K., I need to ask you your name before I ask how you pronounce your name.

I feel it is important, as it sets you off on the right foot. Show respect for their name, show respect for the person and by extension their complaint. Plus, it’s a terribly British trope of ‘loudly speak at the foreigner, especially in their own country, and simply repeat slower and louder until Johnny Foreigner gets it’.

I'm not in customer service but it's essential all the time. There is no situation where it isn't extremely rude not to try. Perfectly reasonable to ask how to do so. Never, ever make a 'wow that's a hard one!' or 'I'm not even going to try and pronounce that' gags.

Is it more a question of perceived power dynamics?

The English speaking world is often in a more dominant position politically or economically. By not using the language in the names of non-English cultures do you feel you are exploiting a privilege you don't wish to be associated with? You don't want to reject or deny or dominate by your choice of words.

Because language is power, you would use it with some care.

The question is "should" as in ethically or ideally. In reality social habits, effective communication, language as used all factor against a strictly ethical ideal.

It seems like that to mindful native English speakers, because English is so widespread as a second language that it has pretty much become the default world lingua franca. At the same time, English has fractured into many varieties, so there isn't a standard way of pronouncing it.

But as I posted a couple of pages ago, most countries and languages have their own way of speaking of other countries.

For instance the Japanese for the UK is "eikoku", which means Excellent Country. I am sure we can all agree on that, at least.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Voss wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Do Spanish people say ‘England’? Do the French? How about Germans?

No?

Then why should we use the national name for their country when they don’t for our own? Seems very odd.

England is England in German too...

You're seizing on a coincidental exception and assuming its universal.
German has its own version of most place names: Ungarn, Russland, Italien, Frankreich

I'm well aware, but when the rationale is "they don't name us properly so why should we bother?" it doesn't help that they DO call England "England".

That wasn't the rationale. The rationale is quite simple - do other countries do the same for the names of foreign nations? The answer is no, apart from very few exceptions and fringe cases. Your argument is even more moot when we consider than the way a German says 'England' and the way an English person says 'England' are entirely different.

You're comment serves no purpose apart from an attempted quip at me, as per.

nfe wrote:
I'm not in customer service but it's essential all the time. There is no situation where it isn't extremely rude not to try. Perfectly reasonable to ask how to do so. Never, ever make a 'wow that's a hard one!' or 'I'm not even going to try and pronounce that' gags.

Names are a bit of a minefield. You can't even assume a pronunciation based on the spelling of a name, even if you know its origin or are familiar with the language the name originally comes from.

Case in point, there is a (fairly well-known) American journalist of Polish descent who pronounces her surname 'Prezbella'. That is not even remotely close to how a Polish person would pronounce it ('Pshehbewah'). Knowing her name is of Polish origin gives you no clue at all how she would prefer you to say it.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Voss wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Do Spanish people say ‘England’? Do the French? How about Germans?

No?

Then why should we use the national name for their country when they don’t for our own? Seems very odd.

England is England in German too...

You're seizing on a coincidental exception and assuming its universal.
German has its own version of most place names: Ungarn, Russland, Italien, Frankreich

I'm well aware, but when the rationale is "they don't name us properly so why should we bother?" it doesn't help that they DO call England "England".

That wasn't the rationale. The rationale is quite simple - do other countries do the same for the names of foreign nations? The answer is no, apart from very few exceptions and fringe cases.

That's an entirely reasonable point, and if that was your intention all along I'll apologize; that wasn't what I got out of it but I'll stand corrected.

"Entirely different" to me would suggest something like "Finland" vs. "Suomi" though, not what could essentially be dialectal differences.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Names are a bit of a minefield. You can't even assume a pronunciation based on the spelling of a name, even if you know its origin or are familiar with the language the name originally comes from.

This is 800x more true for certain languages. . . like Welsh

I demand Americans speak properly when speaking any English words.
The way they say "Birmingham, Nottingham, shire" ACK!!!

It is irritating when English people say "Why don't you spell it how it's pronounced?!" about names in other languages. They mostly do this with the Celtic languages in my experience due to not considering them "real".

 Da Boss wrote:
It is irritating when English people say "Why don't you spell it how it's pronounced?!" about names in other languages. They mostly do this with the Celtic languages in my experience due to not considering them "real".

Yeah. Certainly extremely common with Gaelic, and I presume Irish. 'Why don't you spell it phonetically?' Gaelic is phonetic. English, meanwhile...

I always just say "It is spelled how it is pronounced. In Irish."
Usually people just goggle at you like you are mad.

Also had a friend of mine have the pronounciation of her name constantly corrected by others at an academic conference where she had to display it on a name badge.

 Da Boss wrote:
It is irritating when English people say "Why don't you spell it how it's pronounced?!" about names in other languages. They mostly do this with the Celtic languages in my experience due to not considering them "real".

The idea that anyone from the UK thinks place names should be spelt how they’re pronounced is laughable. However, I think some of my less educated countrymen have a hard time getting their heads round the fact that whilst Irish people might mostly speak English, it’s not their native language.

nfe wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It is irritating when English people say "Why don't you spell it how it's pronounced?!" about names in other languages. They mostly do this with the Celtic languages in my experience due to not considering them "real".

Yeah. Certainly extremely common with Gaelic, and I presume Irish. 'Why don't you spell it phonetically?' Gaelic is phonetic. English, meanwhile...

Same with Welsh. It's phonetic. Easy peasy! To the East however we've got Bicester, Worcester, Leominster and... Marylebone

 ValentineGames wrote:
I demand Americans speak properly when speaking any English words.
The way they say "Birmingham, Nottingham, shire" ACK!!!

Lay-ches-ter. [I'm not sure this is recognizable: its Leicester)

Ed-en-burg

Though with town names like Bury-St.-Edmunds, sometimes you reap what you sow, and can't be taken seriously.

Loughborough.

I've heard it pronounced "Luggabarooga".

Pretty sure *THAT* one is a town in NW Queensland, though.