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Made in gb
Nasty Nob





Dorset, England

Bran Dawri wrote:
I think it depends what language you're speaking. If you're speaking English, it's fine to use the English name for a place kr country. If you're speaking a different language, use that language's term for the place.

Just don't -ever- tell me I'm from Holland. That's comparable to telling a Scotsman he's English or saying to a Texan he's a Yankee in both geographical accuracy and level of insult.

Ah that's interesting because I checked with some Dutch friends before and they didn't mind, but maybe that just means they were from the Holland region!

It wasn't until I went to uni in Wales that I realised how often we say 'England' when we really mean 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', obviously the Welsh tend to notice
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 Kroem wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:
I think it depends what language you're speaking. If you're speaking English, it's fine to use the English name for a place kr country. If you're speaking a different language, use that language's term for the place.

Just don't -ever- tell me I'm from Holland. That's comparable to telling a Scotsman he's English or saying to a Texan he's a Yankee in both geographical accuracy and level of insult.

Ah that's interesting because I checked with some Dutch friends before and they didn't mind, but maybe that just means they were from the Holland region!


That's certainly been my experience. Buddies from Amsterdam and Leiden: happy to have the country referred to as Holland. The ones from Maastricht and Utrecht, less so...
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Da Boss wrote:
I always just say "It is spelled how it is pronounced. In Irish."
Usually people just goggle at you like you are mad.

Also had a friend of mine have the pronounciation of her name constantly corrected by others at an academic conference where she had to display it on a name badge.


How is the name Eoin pronounced?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Throatwobbler Mangrove.


There's a Monty Python sketch for every occasion.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Kilkrazy: Similar to the anglacised version Owen.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:



Lay-ches-ter. [I'm not sure this is recognizable: its Leicester)


Uhh. . . it's pronounced "Lester" (or at least, this is what I hear when watching Leicester Tiger matches)

Same as Worchester is "wooster", Worchestershire is more like "wooster-sure"


Where I grew up in the PNW of the US, there's a lot of local towns/areas/landmarks that still bear their native names. . . Biggest one where I was is the Willamette River. . . You can always, ALWAYS tell the out of towners because they'll say some gak like "Will-a-met-ee" river, its properly pronounced "will-Am-ett"
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






I think this question is a real slippery one, and honestly depends on where the listener is from, the history between your nations, and the differences between your languages.

Due to the wide variance in Indo-european and indo-european derrived languages in relation to each other, places like France and the UK can have tremendous differences, despite being visable to one another across a piddly little patch of water. I've got plenty of French and German friends, who will gleefully pretend to have no idea what you're talking about if you say "the Loo-arr valley" or "Myuunick", but the second you drop a "Vallée de la Loire" or "München", they totally get it.
Those friends, however, knew I could speak at least a navigable bit of their language, and it was usually a bit of friendly ribbing. Most languages in Europe have quite a lot of cross-polination, and so getting your mouth around them isn't so difficult. For that reason, a Spanish friend of mine had little patience for me using English for anything other than "Spain", because, in her words, it just sounded silly to pronounce those places with stumbly English, when I could manage the spanish version with a bit of instruction. To be fair, she was from a part of spain with a lot of Gammon British tourists, who mangled place names, were rude and drunk and wanted all the local cuisine to be warped to accommodate some chips. So I could understand the fairly minor peeve.

Slightly more seriously, my family in Ireland were moderate Catholic Republicans in a majority Protestant part of Northern Ireland during the troubles. For decades they all got the short end of the stick from all 3 sides of the conflict, and we've lost relatives because of it. With them, I'm always extremely careful about my placenames. It's never not Derry. Sometimes people can get heated about it, but mostly it's just painful. Even when I'm not sure, I'd rather fumble an approximation of Irish pronounciation, and get an 'at-least-ya-tried' look, than sound like a cop or a paratrooper.
Likewise, when I went to meet an ex's family in Guangzhou, China (my Chinese has always been terrible, I just don't have the muscle strength to manage tonal pronounciations for more than a few minutes), I was always careful to ask first, and then carefully parrot, given that her Grandma could remember when my country used to call this place Canton, and had turned it into an opium-ridden nightmare.

It's worth noting, though, that not all of the anglophone names have been applied out of spite or ignorance. Korea comes from Goryeo - a historic name for the late ancient to early medieval kingdom that united the penninsula. Koreans are actually pretty fond of this, given that it's regarded as a bit of a golden age, nestled in an otherwise bleak and turbulent history. Most Koreans are pretty proud to call themselves "Korean". To boot, their English is pretty good for the most part across the board, and usually I was met with shock whenever I tried to pronounce things in Korean, moreso when it was getting people's names right.

As mentionned before in this thread, Japanese is a pretty good one for just phonetically echoing foreign words, though sometimes, because of history, it comes out a little wonky. Then for Korea and Japan, the word for China (and traditionally it's character) has the same meaning, but the pronounciation of "The Middle Kingdom" - which is what the Chinese call China - is the similar, but a bit different.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:On top of country names?
Do you feel it’s important to try to pronounce someone’s name properly?

Bearing in mind that due to Data Protection laws in the U.K., I need to ask you your name before I ask how you pronounce your name.


That's a thorny one, Grotsnik, but it sounds like you give it a jolly good go. Very noble of you. I do the same, and usually check if I've butchered the pronounciation, as most people living in the UK are pretty used to having people flubb their names up, and are glad at least that you're trying, and not just dictating to them what thier names are.


theCrowe wrote:Is it more a question of perceived power dynamics?

The English speaking world is often in a more dominant position politically or economically. By not using the language in the names of non-English cultures do you feel you are exploiting a privilege you don't wish to be associated with? You don't want to reject or deny or dominate by your choice of words.

Because language is power, you would use it with some care.

The question is "should" as in ethically or ideally. In reality social habits, effective communication, language as used all factor against a strictly ethical ideal.


An excellent take on the subject, and certainly one I can relate to as someone of mixed parentage (half british military family, half empire) living in Asia, where, though most people regard the British well, still bear the marks of the trauma inflicted upon them by my ancestors.

I see nothing wrong with only using English place names if 1. they're the only name you know for the place and 2. You know the listener is comfortable hearing it.
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
For instance the Japanese for the UK is "eikoku", which means Excellent Country. I am sure we can all agree on that, at least.

Nope! Igirisu or bust!

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It seems like that to mindful native English speakers, because English is so widespread as a second language that it has pretty much become the default world lingua franca. At the same time, English has fractured into many varieties, so there isn't a standard way of pronouncing it.

But as I posted a couple of pages ago, most countries and languages have their own way of speaking of other countries.

For instance the Japanese for the UK is "eikoku", which means Excellent Country. I am sure we can all agree on that, at least.


Yeah but what about the poor saps who got stuck with 'uncooked rice country'?

To flesh out, prewar Japan used a variation on the Chinese system where you took a preexisting Chinese character that kinda sorta sounded like the country and jointed with Koku (Kingdom/nation). So Eikoku for England, Fugoku for France and so on. These names are still around today, kinda like Roman numerals, if you want to class up your writing. But mainly they use Japanese transliterations of either the English name or the local name. So India/Bharat is Indo, Egypt/Masr is Igipto.

Which is what I find really, really weird. It's not just English that has our own names for countries (some of them totally unrelated to the country's real name) but other languages like Japanese, Hindi and Arabic end up taking their lead from English.


 
   
Made in ao
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




Voss wrote:
 ValentineGames wrote:
I demand Americans speak properly when speaking any English words.
The way they say "Birmingham, Nottingham, shire" ACK!!!




Lay-ches-ter. [I'm not sure this is recognizable: its Leicester)

Ed-en-burg

Though with town names like Bury-St.-Edmunds, sometimes you reap what you sow, and can't be taken seriously.


It's Ed-n-brah and Lester.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Bran Dawri wrote:
Voss wrote:
 ValentineGames wrote:
I demand Americans speak properly when speaking any English words.
The way they say "Birmingham, Nottingham, shire" ACK!!!




Lay-ches-ter. [I'm not sure this is recognizable: its Leicester)

Ed-en-burg

Though with town names like Bury-St.-Edmunds, sometimes you reap what you sow, and can't be taken seriously.


It's Ed-n-brah and Lester.


Unsure if joke? It ain't.
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

Personally, I've always been a fan of Godmanchester.
Spoiler:
'Gumster'

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Voss wrote:



Lay-ches-ter. [I'm not sure this is recognizable: its Leicester)


Uhh. . . it's pronounced "Lester" (or at least, this is what I hear when watching Leicester Tiger matches)

I know. I took VG's post as a challenge to show how much worse it can get.


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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