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 NurglesR0T wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
From a lore perspective i think i would feel dirty using primaris in any DA force. the unforgiven do not take lightly to outsiders.


That being said i only play deathwing/ravenwing (since 3rd ed) so the primaris question never became a thing for me.

The DA untrusting of Primaris has been pretty much all but removed from fluff - with the introduction of Lazarus becoming the first primaris inner circle we should pretty much accept it.. unless this is a mace windu type deal "you are in the inner circle, but you do not have the rank of Master"

Yeah, as said, most Primaris now would be no more of an outsider than any normal DA, seeing as existing Astartes can cross the Rubicon Primaris, or new aspirants can be made into Primaris from the start. It's only the first batch of Primaris that would be considered outsiders.

Tacs vs Intercessors are quite similar against each other if you get a plasma gun in there. But without that plasma they get crushed. And that tac squad will be worse against most other things compared to the intercessors. When doctrines and stratagems added in the intercessors blow the tacs out of the water.

For IH/IF stalker intercessors especially outperform tacticals.

I had some success with 10 man intercessors with TH infiltrating/deepstriking with RG and then shooting 40 shots before assaulting in melee. Tacts cant do that nearly as well either.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
From a lore perspective i think i would feel dirty using primaris in any DA force. the unforgiven do not take lightly to outsiders.


That being said i only play deathwing/ravenwing (since 3rd ed) so the primaris question never became a thing for me.

The DA untrusting of Primaris has been pretty much all but removed from fluff - with the introduction of Lazarus becoming the first primaris inner circle we should pretty much accept it.. unless this is a mace windu type deal "you are in the inner circle, but you do not have the rank of Master"

you assume i accept the retcon fluff.

 aphyon wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
From a lore perspective i think i would feel dirty using primaris in any DA force. the unforgiven do not take lightly to outsiders.


That being said i only play deathwing/ravenwing (since 3rd ed) so the primaris question never became a thing for me.

The DA untrusting of Primaris has been pretty much all but removed from fluff - with the introduction of Lazarus becoming the first primaris inner circle we should pretty much accept it.. unless this is a mace windu type deal "you are in the inner circle, but you do not have the rank of Master"

you assume i accept the retcon fluff.

If you dont, you're essentially following your own fanfic.

Which is fine, just a statement of fact. I have my own head canon about a bunch of things!

It doesn't seem a fanfic, when the new stuff is wrong. I mean we wouldn't have much progress in any century if people decided that just because someone said something new, then it is right, no matter how stupid it is. We got some really unfun stuff thanks to thank way of thinking in the XXth century.

Karol wrote:
It doesn't seem a fanfic, when the new stuff is wrong. I mean we wouldn't have much progress in any century if people decided that just because someone said something new, then it is right, no matter how stupid it is. We got some really unfun stuff thanks to thank way of thinking in the XXth century.

It's not wrong though.

The Dark Angels still accept recruits normally, yes? So why wouldn't they accept completely new recruits that just happened to be taller? Why would they completely turn their backs on an already existing battle-brother, just because he was made taller?

I can absolutely understand why the initial wave of Primaris wouldn't be accepted into the DA properly (although, given how badly the DA had been mauled by conflict, it's completely in character for them to accept Primaris normally - just keeping them at arm's length*), but the later generations? It makes no sense, unless you believe that the Dark Angels have NEVER inducted new members into the Inner Circle.

Lazarus has already proven himself as a Dark Angel before he was even a Primaris. Him being Primaris has changed nothing about how the DA should trust him. Similarly, new recruits into the Chapter (ie, unaugmented aspirants) would be treated the same if they were Primaris or not, because it doesn't matter if they're Primaris or not.


*besides, I'd like to see them try and turn around to Guilliman, in person, and tell him that they're not accepting his Primaris - that'd be a sure fire way to get the Chapter censured, and my money's on the army with the vast majority of the Imperium behind his back. Let's not forget, the DA hardly made themselves many political allies, did they?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
It doesn't seem a fanfic, when the new stuff is wrong. I mean we wouldn't have much progress in any century if people decided that just because someone said something new, then it is right, no matter how stupid it is. We got some really unfun stuff thanks to thank way of thinking in the XXth century.

It's not wrong though.

The Dark Angels still accept recruits normally, yes? So why wouldn't they accept completely new recruits that just happened to be taller? Why would they completely turn their backs on an already existing battle-brother, just because he was made taller?

I can absolutely understand why the initial wave of Primaris wouldn't be accepted into the DA properly (although, given how badly the DA had been mauled by conflict, it's completely in character for them to accept Primaris normally - just keeping them at arm's length*), but the later generations? It makes no sense, unless you believe that the Dark Angels have NEVER inducted new members into the Inner Circle.

Lazarus has already proven himself as a Dark Angel before he was even a Primaris. Him being Primaris has changed nothing about how the DA should trust him. Similarly, new recruits into the Chapter (ie, unaugmented aspirants) would be treated the same if they were Primaris or not, because it doesn't matter if they're Primaris or not.


*besides, I'd like to see them try and turn around to Guilliman, in person, and tell him that they're not accepting his Primaris - that'd be a sure fire way to get the Chapter censured, and my money's on the army with the vast majority of the Imperium behind his back. Let's not forget, the DA hardly made themselves many political allies, did they?

They are not recruits though that's the problem.. cawl made them somewhere else in a lab and said presto here are some new improved DA troopers to put into your chapter that you had no hand in choosing, training or indoctrinating into your dogma and you should just accept themn anyway....even though you are incredibly secretive, xenophobic and distrustful, nah shouldn't be a problem right?


Now if you are talking about using the primaris implant process in lue of the standard one that they can do themselves and follow all the traditions of the chapter then thats a reasonable argument. otherwise i see them going the flesh tearers route.

*besides, I'd like to see them try and turn around to Guilliman, in person, and tell him that they're not accepting his Primaris - that'd be a sure fire way to get the Chapter censured, and my money's on the army with the vast majority of the Imperium behind his back. Let's not forget, the DA hardly made themselves many political allies, did they?

You mean like a war or civil war based on differentces in conviction? We had 4 of those in XX century, and 11, only counting the big ones, in XIX century. And am just speaking of my country.

The idea that someone comes to a military organisations, and tells them how they are going to be run, when it is against the basic tenants of how the organisation works sound not just forced, but stupid and improbable. Now GW is of course in full right to do what ever they can with their IP and write the most strange deux ex machina. But having DA take in primaris is like the ortodox church passing a law that now all catholics have to pray in Russsian and not in latin, have holy days according to the julian calendar, and the catholics being okey with it.

On top of it DA are super secretive and kind of a hostile to outsiders, including other marines. It is just too much to be okey with. In fact, DA not taking in primaris, while others do, would be an interesting plot point for the future. And yes I know this is sci fi and not real life, but even scifi has to follow the laws of its own world, especially when they are set in stone for over 30+ years, or is w40k older then that?

And how dramatic changes of lore or odd plot twists work for frenchises end sometimes we all have seen. Thankfuly, w40k lore is a secondary when it comes to playing the game. DA primaris could be forced to run around in only yellow speedos and helmets, and people would run them anyway, if had good rules. And they clearly have good rules.

In fact GW seemed to have learned a lot from AoS reset. Why risk people getting angry, and quiting the game drowning the secondary market in models, when you can slowly give them units to replace the new ones, to top it all off with something like IH rule set, where a new player doesn't really need other old models then thunder canons, and GW probably knows that people will just buy those from other companies, as the GW model is both broken and too expensive.

aphyon wrote:They are not recruits though that's the problem

Errr, yes they are - the second generation is, at least - as I outlined?

cawl made them somewhere else in a lab and said presto here are some new improved DA troopers to put into your chapter that you had no hand in choosing, training or indoctrinating into your dogma and you should just accept themn anyway....even though you are incredibly secretive, xenophobic and distrustful, nah shouldn't be a problem right?

Still wrong, because thankfully, that's not all Primaris. Only the FIRST batch of Primaris were like this, which I literally said made absolute sense for the DA to reject them from the Inner Circle (obviously, rejecting Primaris wholesale would have been suicidal for them, seeing as Guilliman held all the cards politically and militarily).

I'm talking about the later generations, the Primaris Marines who literally were recruited like any other Battle Brother (as in, aspirant implanted with geneseed, enhanced, and indoctrinated directly by the Chapter), or existing Marines who crossed the Rubicon Primaris. There's no reason at all for them not to be treated like any other DA.

Now if you are talking about using the primaris implant process in lue of the standard one that they can do themselves and follow all the traditions of the chapter then thats a reasonable argument. otherwise i see them going the flesh tearers route.

That's exactly what I was talking about.

So we're agreed then? There's no reason for the DA not to have Inner Circle Primaris, because they can just indoctrinate their own Primaris Marines, just like I was saying?

Karol wrote:

*besides, I'd like to see them try and turn around to Guilliman, in person, and tell him that they're not accepting his Primaris - that'd be a sure fire way to get the Chapter censured, and my money's on the army with the vast majority of the Imperium behind his back. Let's not forget, the DA hardly made themselves many political allies, did they?

You mean like a war or civil war based on differentces in conviction? We had 4 of those in XX century, and 11, only counting the big ones, in XIX century. And am just speaking of my country.

By all means, let the DA have their civil war - but they'd be eradicated almost immediately. They'd be one single Legion-sized army, going up against literally every other military force in the Imperium. Clearly, the Da care more about their self-preservation than to throw it all away in a futile gesture against Guilliman.

On top of it DA are super secretive and kind of a hostile to outsiders, including other marines. It is just too much to be okey with. In fact, DA not taking in primaris, while others do, would be an interesting plot point for the future. And yes I know this is sci fi and not real life, but even scifi has to follow the laws of its own world, especially when they are set in stone for over 30+ years, or is w40k older then that?

The Dark Angels aren't also stupid. They know when it's prudent to bend the knee and pay lip service to Guilliman - they've already been doing it for 10,000 years regarding their totally-not-a-Legion. And besides, they still didn't rush to induct any Primaris into the Inner Circle - until they made their own Primaris Marines.

40k's been following it's own rules just fine. It's people taking it to extremes, and calling that tru-40k that's distorted things a bit. But, that's their interpretation, and that's completely valid - but it's no more true than any other version.

But, I think this is a little off-topic, I suppose.

Sure, there's a reason why they wouldn't have inner circle primaris.

Because they're paranoid, irrational jerks.

 Melissia wrote:
Sure, there's a reason why they wouldn't have inner circle primaris.

Because they're paranoid, irrational jerks.

Irrational to the point where previously completely trustworthy brethren, the moment they get three new organs, are now suddenly complete strangers?

I don't buy that personally.

I completely get them not trusting the first wave of Primaris, as I've said. But there's no reason not to trust the other two versions of Primaris Marines any different to their existing Firstborn. They're in control of the implantation, the indoctrination, and the entire post-neophyte lives of their recruits - and while the DA are irrational jerks, I don't believe them to be capable of this degree of idiocy. And clearly, GW don't either.

If anyone's personal DA distrust Primaris to that degree, that's fair enough, but I don't think GW are breaking any fluff "rules" by having second and third generation Primaris inducted into the Inner Circle.

DA acepting primaris is not a retcon, is advancing the fluff. They distrusted the first batch from Terra. Then they started creating their own primaris and they ended up accepting those. Is not that complicated.

 Galas wrote:
DA acepting primaris is not a retcon, is advancing the fluff. They distrusted the first batch from Terra. Then they started creating their own primaris and they ended up accepting those. Is not that complicated.

Exactly this.

The current timeline is a good century or two after the Primaris were originally revealed. There will be Primaris in the Dark Angels who are older than many members of the Inner Circle, and who were directly recruited by the chapter.

Klickor wrote:
Tacs vs Intercessors are quite similar against each other if you get a plasma gun in there. But without that plasma they get crushed. And that tac squad will be worse against most other things compared to the intercessors. When doctrines and stratagems added in the intercessors blow the tacs out of the water.

For IH/IF stalker intercessors especially outperform tacticals.

I had some success with 10 man intercessors with TH infiltrating/deepstriking with RG and then shooting 40 shots before assaulting in melee. Tacts cant do that nearly as well either.

Sure. . . But Tacs can arrive via Drop Pod better, and load up on those sweet, sweet Specials and Heavies.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Tacs vs Intercessors are quite similar against each other if you get a plasma gun in there. But without that plasma they get crushed. And that tac squad will be worse against most other things compared to the intercessors. When doctrines and stratagems added in the intercessors blow the tacs out of the water.

For IH/IF stalker intercessors especially outperform tacticals.

I had some success with 10 man intercessors with TH infiltrating/deepstriking with RG and then shooting 40 shots before assaulting in melee. Tacts cant do that nearly as well either.

Sure. . . But Tacs can arrive via Drop Pod better, and load up on those sweet, sweet Specials and Heavies.

"Load up" LOL good one there.

Also you have to incorporate the Drop Pod into that cost.

but can Primaris be deployed that way??? As of right now they do not have any way of deep striking an Intercessor squad, so not exactly apples to apples.

Racerguy180 wrote:
but can Primaris be deployed that way??? As of right now they do not have any way of deep striking an Intercessor squad, so not exactly apples to apples.

By that same virtue, can Tacticals be deployed via Repulor/Impulsor?

Realistically, how much use is the Drop Pod, how much good does it do, and is the cost of that Drop Pod worth it, especially being used on Tacticals?

It's all well and good that they *can* use it, and I'm a big advocate for "take what you like no matter how good/bad it is", but just listing off "they can do this!" as a positive, when Primaris can boast their own unique transport doesn't really do much.

Yeah, why are people putting Tacs in drop pods rather than Devs or Vets? Seems extremely niche again.

I get it. You like Tacticals, you dont like the new tall boys everyone is fawning over. That's fine, use them if you want. They arent awful especially in the stronger Marine chapters now. They just arent optimal.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, why are people putting Tacs in drop pods rather than Devs or Vets? Seems extremely niche again.

I get it. You like Tacticals, you dont like the new tall boys everyone is fawning over. That's fine, use them if you want. They arent awful especially in the stronger Marine chapters now. They just arent optimal.

Because you don't always want to deploy in the same way, and sometimes, for whatever reason, stashing your Devastators in the backfield or using some other method might be better.

What I've occasionally done is put two Combat Squads of Tacs into a Pod with all their weapons, then kept the Bolter guys camping objectives. But that gets you a Pod with 2 Grav Cannons and four Plasma Guns, which hits harder than a single Devastator Squad. 16 AP -3 or 4 2D/D3D shots out of a pair of Troops choices is nothing to sneeze at.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, why are people putting Tacs in drop pods rather than Devs or Vets? Seems extremely niche again.

I get it. You like Tacticals, you dont like the new tall boys everyone is fawning over. That's fine, use them if you want. They arent awful especially in the stronger Marine chapters now. They just arent optimal.

It can be a relatively cheap way to put 10+ wounds in the middle of the battlefield (Where an objective usually is) which will usually cause your opponent to freak out and want to kill it immediately. This requires a ton of wasted firepower and allows you to move units like intercessors up the board. If I was a Codex marine player I would do this (It has no use in Blood Angels or Deathwatch) they may not be optimal on paper, but when it comes to the psychological aspect of it and the strategic aspect, it can be useful.

I like the new marines and the old marines! They both have their place and both are cool

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, why are people putting Tacs in drop pods rather than Devs or Vets? Seems extremely niche again.

I get it. You like Tacticals, you dont like the new tall boys everyone is fawning over. That's fine, use them if you want. They arent awful especially in the stronger Marine chapters now. They just arent optimal.

Because you don't always want to deploy in the same way, and sometimes, for whatever reason, stashing your Devastators in the backfield or using some other method might be better.

What I've occasionally done is put two Combat Squads of Tacs into a Pod with all their weapons, then kept the Bolter guys camping objectives. But that gets you a Pod with 2 Grav Cannons and four Plasma Guns, which hits harder than a single Devastator Squad. 16 AP -3 or 4 2D/D3D shots out of a pair of Troops choices is nothing to sneeze at.

Which is worse for the Grav strat (one of the primary reasons to use Grav Cannons in the first place) and the Bolter dudes hit like wet noodles. They can't hold an objective to save their lives LOL

Back on the subject at had, with 8th ed using anything other than drop pods for dreads is pretty pointless. the pod was the "safe" delivery system. especially for a unit that was CC oriented or had special short ranged weapons like sternguard with combi meltas because it could get them in close without a deepstrike mishap.

Primaris can do the same thing now via vanguard/phobos units.

Like every other edition GW is basing rules on sales/marketing-
players who have been in the game a while already have all the basic marines they need so they had to make marines with better stats and weapons so old players as well as new would be moved to update to the newest models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, why are people putting Tacs in drop pods rather than Devs or Vets? Seems extremely niche again.

I get it. You like Tacticals, you dont like the new tall boys everyone is fawning over. That's fine, use them if you want. They arent awful especially in the stronger Marine chapters now. They just arent optimal.

Because you don't always want to deploy in the same way, and sometimes, for whatever reason, stashing your Devastators in the backfield or using some other method might be better.

What I've occasionally done is put two Combat Squads of Tacs into a Pod with all their weapons, then kept the Bolter guys camping objectives. But that gets you a Pod with 2 Grav Cannons and four Plasma Guns, which hits harder than a single Devastator Squad. 16 AP -3 or 4 2D/D3D shots out of a pair of Troops choices is nothing to sneeze at.

Which is worse for the Grav strat (one of the primary reasons to use Grav Cannons in the first place) and the Bolter dudes hit like wet noodles. They can't hold an objective to save their lives LOL

If bolter dudes "hit like wet noodles", then Intercessors hit like slightly less wet noodles.

The primary reason to bring Grav Cannons is because they're excellent weapons. Better AT than Las, better anti-elite than Plasma.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sure, there's a reason why they wouldn't have inner circle primaris.

Because they're paranoid, irrational jerks.

Irrational to the point where previously completely trustworthy brethren, the moment they get three new organs, are now suddenly complete strangers?

I don't buy that personally.

Why? It completely fits with 40k lore.

I agree that the DA having Primaris isn't a problem. The ones that are not kept at a very far distance from the "legions" secrets are the ones that they either made themselves and recruited up to know about stuff or ones that went through the legio primaris to be upgraded into primaris and survived. Anyone who was made outside of the DA and sent to them were probably sent on suicide missions and/or had an "accident".

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, why are people putting Tacs in drop pods rather than Devs or Vets? Seems extremely niche again.

I get it. You like Tacticals, you dont like the new tall boys everyone is fawning over. That's fine, use them if you want. They arent awful especially in the stronger Marine chapters now. They just arent optimal.

Because you don't always want to deploy in the same way, and sometimes, for whatever reason, stashing your Devastators in the backfield or using some other method might be better.

What I've occasionally done is put two Combat Squads of Tacs into a Pod with all their weapons, then kept the Bolter guys camping objectives. But that gets you a Pod with 2 Grav Cannons and four Plasma Guns, which hits harder than a single Devastator Squad. 16 AP -3 or 4 2D/D3D shots out of a pair of Troops choices is nothing to sneeze at.

Which is worse for the Grav strat (one of the primary reasons to use Grav Cannons in the first place) and the Bolter dudes hit like wet noodles. They can't hold an objective to save their lives LOL

If bolter dudes "hit like wet noodles", then Intercessors hit like slightly less wet noodles.

The primary reason to bring Grav Cannons is because they're excellent weapons. Better AT than Las, better anti-elite than Plasma.

Seeing as Intercessors have better threat range and random Strats to better that output (forgot about Rapid Fire 2 at a low cost, huh?), not exactly.

And no, the Strat is the primary reason to use Grav Cannons in excess. Devastation Squads getting 4 in a squad along with one of them getting a +1 to hit and a Cherub for double fire is a lot better than your configuration, period.

^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Melissia wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Sure, there's a reason why they wouldn't have inner circle primaris.

Because they're paranoid, irrational jerks.

Irrational to the point where previously completely trustworthy brethren, the moment they get three new organs, are now suddenly complete strangers?

I don't buy that personally.

Why? It completely fits with 40k lore.

So does them having Primaris - deference to quasi-religious figures, lost technology, etc etc.

I just don't agree with the idea that the Dark Angels would reject any and all Primaris, including ones they made themselves. They're secretive, but they're not suicidal. It'd be like them not taking any equipment from Mars or even recruiting in the first place. There's degrees to which their irrationality goes, and for me, it doesn't go as far as rejecting home-grown Primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Not many points more than Tacticals, both of which suck at shooting them compared to other units with better Heavy weapon saturation. Based on that and the better durability, Intercessors still win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Not many points more than Tacticals, both of which suck at shooting them compared to other units with better Heavy weapon saturation. Based on that and the better durability, Intercessors still win.

5 Tacticals with Grav-Cannons, btw. With rerolls. 6 with Las. Beat that.