Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why? It completely fits with 40k lore.

So does them having Primaris - deference to quasi-religious figures, lost technology, etc etc.

I just don't agree with the idea that the Dark Angels would reject any and all Primaris, including ones they made themselves. They're secretive, but they're not suicidal. It'd be like them not taking any equipment from Mars or even recruiting in the first place. There's degrees to which their irrationality goes, and for me, it doesn't go as far as rejecting home-grown Primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Not many points more than Tacticals, both of which suck at shooting them compared to other units with better Heavy weapon saturation. Based on that and the better durability, Intercessors still win.

5 Tacticals with Grav-Cannons, btw. With rerolls. 6 with Las. Beat that.

So that is...

4 heavy shots at S5 AP-3 Dd3
8 rapid fire shots at S4 AP-1 D1

Per squad, with a 24" range in Tactical Doctrine (being used because it's better to go AP0 to -1 than it is to go from AP-3 to -4). Assuming CM and Lt rerolls, I get...

4 shots
32/9 hits
112/81 wounds
280/243 unsaved wounds
560/243 damage, or 2.30 damage per squad

8 shots
64/9 hits
112/81 wounds
56/81 unsaved
56/81 damage, or .69 per squad

Total of 2.99 per squad, meaning you actually only need four.

The same points of Intercessors gets us just under 19 Intercessors. I'll round up, since I did for killing the Russ.

They do...

19 shots
152/9 hits
266/81 wounds
665/243 unsaved
1,330/243 damage, or 5.47 damage

A turn earlier, and at 36" instead of 24".

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Not many points more than Tacticals, both of which suck at shooting them compared to other units with better Heavy weapon saturation. Based on that and the better durability, Intercessors still win.

5 Tacticals with Grav-Cannons, btw. With rerolls. 6 with Las. Beat that.

So that is...

4 heavy shots at S5 AP-3 Dd3
8 rapid fire shots at S4 AP-1 D1

Per squad, with a 24" range in Tactical Doctrine (being used because it's better to go AP0 to -1 than it is to go from AP-3 to -4). Assuming CM and Lt rerolls, I get...

4 shots
32/9 hits
112/81 wounds
280/243 unsaved wounds
560/243 damage, or 2.30 damage per squad

Five squads nets you, then, 11.5 damage. A CP reroll on damage for the Grav Cannons or a failed Grav wound can swing that, so okay. That's 400 points, plus buffers.

EDIT: FORGOT TO ADD BOLTERS, THAT SHOULD MORE THAN COVER THE .5!

The same points of Intercessors gets us 23.5 Intercessors. I'll round up, since I did for killing the Russ, and say 24 Primaris.

They do...

24 shots
64/3 hits
112/27 wounds
280/81 unsaved
560/81 damage, or 6.91 damage

A turn earlier, and at 36" instead of 24".

Hehehe, no. I meant literally 5 models, all the other models are doing other things.

How the hell do you get 5 models to kill a Russ from a TACTICAL SQUAD?

You'd have QUADRUPLE their damage output to kill it!

 JNAProductions wrote:
How the hell do you get 5 models to kill a Russ from a TACTICAL SQUAD?

You'd have QUADRUPLE their damage output to kill it!

Easy! 5 models from 5 Tactical Squads.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So does them having Primaris - deference to quasi-religious figures, lost technology, etc etc.

I just don't agree with the idea that the Dark Angels would reject any and all Primaris, including ones they made themselves. They're secretive, but they're not suicidal. It'd be like them not taking any equipment from Mars or even recruiting in the first place. There's degrees to which their irrationality goes, and for me, it doesn't go as far as rejecting home-grown Primaris.

then you have absolutly no idea how quasi religious organisations functions.

I'm talking about the wider Imperium - Guilliman, like all Primarchs, are revered by practically everyone, either in a religious sense, or a semi-religious one. Even the Dark Angels, for all their aloofness, know better than to oppose a living Primarch.

DA are like a cult, or a Opus Dei with guns. There are groups of people who take their memberships serious, and are fully willing to get destroyed to the last person and will never compromise.

So you're saying that the Dark Angels shouldn't exist any more then? Because I'd believe them having a chance against the rest of the Imperium even less than I would them even trying to fight back against it.

This isn't like the real world - the power levels are FAR too imbalanced, the stakes far too high, for the DA to have had any chance of maintaining autonomy without going full blown renegade and fleeing into the Warp.

And by the way if Mars asked something like lets say access to the Rocks data banks, if DA still want to keep getting some sort of specific gear or ammo they alone can no longer produce, they would say no. this is no irrationality, this is faith and religion.

Agreed, but they still rely on Mars for their equipment and technology. However, Mars know better than to poke the bear, and have no need to go prying. The DA certainly CAN be secretive and stubborn, but it won't get them out of everything.

Look at the situation they were in - decimated by their war with Magnus and the Great Rift opening, heavy losses amongst the ENTIRE Unforgiven army. Guilliman shows up IN PERSON, and offers them fresh reinforcements, superior to their own troops, and how to make them. It's a stupidly good offer, even for reclusive Astartes, but considering that you have a literal Primarch telling you this, with his whole army at his back - you think Azrael would have the guts to deny him? I just don't believe it would happen.

And unless we assume that DA were all just pretending to be secretive to a point where they blew up a BT ship, just because it came in to contact with Cypher, then them accepting primaris makes no sense.

A random BT ship isn't a Primarch.

But GW can retcon or change any lore they want in the end. Want a real life example? My people are greek ortodox, to an outsider practicaly identical to eastern ortodox. We have undergone 70 years of purges, killings, people not being allowed to be buried, getting married or having their children christianed.
And all it would took for them is to say, that they are not greek ortodox, and that they are okey with priest being send from Moscow. heck to this day in ukrain, this is part of the conflict.

Real life isn't 40k. Guilliman has had 10,000 years of (admittedly non-consentual) worship and devotion at him. He's both physically and psychologically a saviour to Imperium. The cult of personality surrounding him is immense, far greater than anything we'd be able to really imagine on earth now.

Think of the craze people have these days around certain influential figures, and multiply that tenfold, and you're still not near the effect Guilliman has on people within the setting. That's all part of the Imperial cult, and, short of outright disavowing the church altogether publicly, there is very little Guilliman could even do to break the faith the Imperium has in him. This feverish devotion to the Primarchs and heroes of old has been part of 40k since essentially it's inception.

Of course, my take on the setting, etc etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How the hell do you get 5 models to kill a Russ from a TACTICAL SQUAD?

You'd have QUADRUPLE their damage output to kill it!

Easy! 5 models from 5 Tactical Squads.

Don't you need to buy three Drop Pods for that, if you want them all getting close? If you're looking at equivalent points, the Intercessors have you long beat there too?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How the hell do you get 5 models to kill a Russ from a TACTICAL SQUAD?

You'd have QUADRUPLE their damage output to kill it!

Easy! 5 models from 5 Tactical Squads.

Okay, yeah, no dip if you take five heavy weapons from five squads you can be more effective than a single squad that doesn't have specials or heavies.

But how are you getting them all to within 24"? And without having counted as moved? Since that drops the damage from 2.30 to 1.94, meaning you need 6 Grav Cannons to do it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How the hell do you get 5 models to kill a Russ from a TACTICAL SQUAD?

You'd have QUADRUPLE their damage output to kill it!

Easy! 5 models from 5 Tactical Squads.

Okay, yeah, no dip if you take five heavy weapons from five squads you can be more effective than a single squad that doesn't have specials or heavies.

But how are you getting them all to within 24"? And without having counted as moved? Since that drops the damage from 2.30 to 1.94, meaning you need 6 Grav Cannons to do it.

*shrug*, call it 6 if you want, same as the Las with a 48" range and stationary.

Also, ignoring the move penalty is easy for a number of chapters. UM in Tactical is my method.

The grav cannon makes your squad too fragile. And a good player won't let you shoot a russ with it. I really want to like it, because I have several painted ones, but it's a relic of 7th ed.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
How the hell do you get 5 models to kill a Russ from a TACTICAL SQUAD?

You'd have QUADRUPLE their damage output to kill it!

Easy! 5 models from 5 Tactical Squads.

Okay, yeah, no dip if you take five heavy weapons from five squads you can be more effective than a single squad that doesn't have specials or heavies.

But how are you getting them all to within 24"? And without having counted as moved? Since that drops the damage from 2.30 to 1.94, meaning you need 6 Grav Cannons to do it.

*shrug*, call it 6 if you want, same as the Las with a 48" range and stationary.

Also, ignoring the move penalty is easy for a number of chapters. UM in Tactical is my method.

Yeah, six is probably the number, since five has a less than fifty/fifty chance of killing a Russ while six has around 70% odds.

^depends on Doctrine and/or Chapter, really.

No move penalty + Doctrine bonus is 5.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Why are you using your tactical squads to destroy leman russes?

I think he's illustrating a point. However, the price per wound on his squad is nuts. A few mortals, and he loses mass points.

Hes trying to illustrate the point that tactical squads are better than intercessors (Or at least, that they have a use) by proving that they can inflict more damage agaisnt heavy targets when the point here is that you don't what your troops for that. Is poor optimization of resources.

Intercessors excell at killing other armies troops, at fighting agaisnt elite infantry and capturing objetives. If they were also good at killing tanks and heavy stuff they would be bananas.
And TBH, 10-15 ntercessors firing the stalker rifle at light tanks can totally destroy or heavely damage them at the same time that they are contributing to the battle from a safe distance.

As I said earlier, DA 42" stalker rifles shooting intercessors with innate rerroll of 1's to hit are, at least on my opinion, the best troop of the game.

The pricetag on the gun kills it for me. That's always been the achilles heel of marines. Paying for their "versatility", which only really increases their fragility.

 Galas wrote:


As I said earlier, DA 42" stalker rifles shooting intercessors with innate rerroll of 1's to hit are, at least on my opinion, the best troop of the game.

May we play differently but I would never really leave my Intercessors out in the open to get shot at. That said stalkers are cool even with the move penalty and lack of grim resolve bonus.

Martel732 wrote:
The pricetag on the gun kills it for me. That's always been the achilles heel of marines. Paying for their "versatility", which only really increases their fragility.

I play the good offense is the best defense card, and since its pretty easy to pack 100 Grav shots into an army, I'm happy to play that way. My usual is a mix with more plasma in it, but that's also D2 and greater range.

I'm not saying Tacs are superior. I'm saying they can do things that Intercessors can't, and I argue that if you design around their strengths, they make fine troops.

From a fluff point of view, Lazarus was an OG marine so therefore becoming a primaris is a moot point. Given that he took over as 5th company master, he was already inducted into the inner circle. Isnt this correct?

I dont think Dark Angels would trust a random batch of primaris but I can imagine them being ok with it if they recruited and trained the primaris marines from the start of the process.

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Why are you using your tactical squads to destroy leman russes?

Why wouldn't I fire Lascannons at heavy targets? The other guys are killing Guardsmen or whatever with their bolters. Units can split fire.

Thought we were talking about grav cannons?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^@ Slayer, how many Intercessors does it take to shoot a Leman Russ to death?

Why are you using your tactical squads to destroy leman russes?

Why wouldn't I fire Lascannons at heavy targets? The other guys are killing Guardsmen or whatever with their bolters. Units can split fire.

Because the 24" Bolters are gonna double tap Infantry squads and the Lascannon is in range to hit the Leman Russ without having used up a turn to use a Rhino or using a Drop, which at that point you might as well just switch to the Grav Cannon?

Take whatever heavy you want. Lots of viable options. I tend Grav or Las, sometimes Plasma.

I have found that the offensive output of tactical squads is just not worth the cost when marines have much better offensive options.


In return, they die way to fast to volume of low quality fire. Intercessors are much better at that. The enemy needs to put a little more effort into killing them (They are gonna kill them ,of course, but in 8th everything dies... with the exception of an IH Leviathan), and that effort is not shooting at the rest of my list.

 Galas wrote:
I have found that the offensive output of tactical squads is just not worth the cost when marines have much better offensive options.


In return, they die way to fast to volume of low quality fire. Intercessors are much better at that. The enemy needs to put a little more effort into killing them (They are gonna kill them ,of course, but in 8th everything dies... with the exception of an IH Leviathan), and that effort is not shooting at the rest of my list.

Fair enough. I've found that my Tacticals last a while because the opponent is busy killing my devs, etc. And their offensive output in turn helps my army's overall surviveability by knocking out a few extra heavy hitters.

Why choose? I can kill your tacs AND devs.

Tacs have the same problem as DC. They die to throwaway fire.

Yes when many armies are taking TFC and indirect fire, I think the tact marines are the first to die to get the easy kills. Likewise with scouts. Or strategically killed to get kill more.

Given the intercessors are efficient wounds, it would be silly to try and kill them first, unless your weapons are D2, more so if people are silly enough to bring heavy weapons on their tacticals.

 Smirrors wrote:
Yes when many armies are taking TFC and indirect fire, I think the tact marines are the first to die to get the easy kills. Likewise with scouts. Or strategically killed to get kill more.

Given the intercessors are efficient wounds, it would be silly to try and kill them first, unless your weapons are D2, more so if people are silly enough to bring heavy weapons on their tacticals.

Its pretty typical of my army to have over 70 2D or D3D shots.

And then the actual offensive output is free to not die. Wonderful.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Its pretty typical of my army to have over 70 2D or D3D shots.

Well that's probably unique to your army or even list. If you are geared for intercessors then naturally you will want to shoot them over tactical marines. But lets be honest, an easy kill is an easy kill. If you are geared to take intercessors you will have no trouble kill less wound efficient tactical marines, particularly if you know they are going to shoot you with a lascannon shot.

Many armies will have 1D weapons too. Im talking thunderfire cannons/heavy bolters/heavy onslaught gatlings, assault cannons equivalents etc. If any of these are in range of tacticals, you probably will see them aimed at them.

I haven't had to fret about it all 8th edition. I'm not about to start.