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Carnifexes are more comparable to Dreadnoughts, not rhinos. Yeah, one of the more famous artworks shows a Carni ripping a rhino to pieces, but that shouldn’t necessarily mean it’s tougher - I fully expect a rhino ought to be able to ram a Carni and the rhino to be the victor (sort of a car vs. moose scenario).

A venerable dreadnought vs. a scything talon Carnifex should be a terse fight; Murderfang vs. Old One Eye ought to be a battle of the ages.

While I agree that Carnfixes are Dread in scale or whatever, they are pretty regularly shown to be far more lethal in melee than a dread. In Anphelion Project a regular fex tears a legendary red scorpion dread to pieces in seconds. The Dread manages to take the fex with it, but he never stood a chance for survival even backed by the other Red Scorpions. Not Old One Eye. Just a stock standard fex. A Fex with crushing claws absolutely rips vehicles to shreds. A Stonecrusher is a monster truck that walks.

I mean... thats fluff and fluff is all over the shop and basically meaningless. But there it is.

 Yarium wrote:

Obviously you've never been hit with a 3d6 Super-Flamer, or had someone use "Defensive Gunners!" and "Vengeance for Cadia!" on you in the same Overwatch, or faced down T'au overwatch, or had a Swarmlord kick it when a Doomsday Ark gets a surprising 3 hits on Overwatch, or... etc.

Mordian Exterminator with Defensive Gunners results in a 4+ overwatch... It really hurts...

The endless whining of Nids players is breathtaking. You're playing a dice game in which weight of dice is god, you have ranged, invulnerables, psychic, and you can, for the same points value, field enough models to fill a bus.

I cannot fething believe there are people who think carnifexes need to be stronger. They're probably the cheapest and most devastating tank unit the game for their cost.Then you get genestealers which are absurdly cheap at 10 points PM for 4 -3 1D attacks base, and they can move 8, and they can advance and charge. That's before any buffs at all. Oh--and then you get shadow on the warp.

I'm sorry but if you can't give non-cheese lists a super competitive game every time and win as often as not with nids...I don't even know what to say. Maybe go back to play dough. Because they're great. And you're failing at faceroll.

Roberts84 wrote:
The endless whining of Nids players is breathtaking. You're playing a dice game in which weight of dice is god, you have ranged, invulnerables, psychic, and you can, for the same points value, field enough models to fill a bus.

I cannot phucking believe there are people who think carnifexes need to be stronger. They're probably the cheapest and most devastating tank unit the game for their cost.Then you get genestealers which are absurdly cheap at 10 points PM for 4 -3 1D attacks base, and they can move 8, and they can advance and charge. That's before any buffs at all. Oh--and then you get shadow on the warp.

I'm sorry but if you can't give non-cheese lists a super competitive game every time and win as often as not with nids...I don't even know what to say. Maybe go back to play dough. Because they're great. And you're failing at faceroll.

How do you get -3 AP on your Genestealers base? And at 10 points?

Because they're 12 points for S4, AP-1 (-4 on 6+ to-wound), D1.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
The endless whining of Nids players is breathtaking. You're playing a dice game in which weight of dice is god, you have ranged, invulnerables, psychic, and you can, for the same points value, field enough models to fill a bus.

I cannot phucking believe there are people who think carnifexes need to be stronger. They're probably the cheapest and most devastating tank unit the game for their cost.Then you get genestealers which are absurdly cheap at 10 points PM for 4 -3 1D attacks base, and they can move 8, and they can advance and charge. That's before any buffs at all. Oh--and then you get shadow on the warp.

I'm sorry but if you can't give non-cheese lists a super competitive game every time and win as often as not with nids...I don't even know what to say. Maybe go back to play dough. Because they're great. And you're failing at faceroll.

How do you get -3 AP on your Genestealers base? And at 10 points?

Because they're 12 points for S4, AP-1 (-4 on 6+ to-wound), D1.

He's counting Acid Maw as a basic weapon... He also forgot to mention the 5++

Although... Genestealers from Hivefleet Jormungandr with Hivefleet Adaptation: Dynamic Camouflage and Extended Carapaces, with a Broodlord behind them casting Catalyst can result in: 2+/5++/5+++ which is highly amusing...
The alternative is also funny. Jormungandr Genestealers with Hivefleet Adaptation: Enhanced Resistance, with a Broodlord providing Catalyst results in: 3+/5++/5+++ and ignores AP1/2...
The trouble is that this isn't spammable...

Roberts84 wrote:
I cannot fething believe there are people who think carnifexes need to be stronger.

Rhinos are tougher than Carnifexes. What more needs to be said?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
I cannot fething believe there are people who think carnifexes need to be stronger.

Rhinos are tougher than Carnifexes. What more needs to be said?

Don't be ridiculous. They're both T7, and have the same save profile. The rhino has two more wounds and can't take anything like the weaponry a carni can. That, and it doesn't have access to multipliers or buffs.

 Stormonu wrote:
Carnifexes are more comparable to Dreadnoughts, not rhinos. Yeah, one of the more famous artworks shows a Carni ripping a rhino to pieces, but that shouldn’t necessarily mean it’s tougher - I fully expect a rhino ought to be able to ram a Carni and the rhino to be the victor (sort of a car vs. moose scenario).

When was the last time you saw a car ram a moose and the car won? Usually the outcome of a car ramming a moose is "everyone loses"--the car's going to get totaled.

Disclaimer: I may have my perspective skewed by being far enough north where a moose gets big.

Roberts84 wrote:
The rhino has two more wounds...

So it is tougher than a Carnifex, just like I said it was.

I didn't mention weapons or buffs or anything else because all I was talking about was how tough it was. You called it ridiculous, and then showed how the Rhino is indeed tougher.

Very strange of you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
The rhino has two more wounds...

So it is tougher than a Carnifex, just like I said it was.

I didn't mention weapons or buffs or anything else because all I was talking about was how tough it was. You called it ridiculous, and then showed how the Rhino is indeed tougher.

Very strange of you.

Except in practicum it isn't, because you can't give Rhino's FNP's and invulnerable saves. Well maybe IH can, but they wouldn't.

Roberts84 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
The rhino has two more wounds...

So it is tougher than a Carnifex, just like I said it was.

I didn't mention weapons or buffs or anything else because all I was talking about was how tough it was. You called it ridiculous, and then showed how the Rhino is indeed tougher.

Very strange of you.

Except in practicum it isn't, because you can't give Rhino's FNP's and invulnerable saves. Well maybe IH can, but they wouldn't.

It's much the same for tyranids. You can, but you wouldn't.
Spending one of your two possible adaptations to give a single carnifex a 5++ save would be a serious waste of potential.
Same with spending your cast of catalyst on that.

Arson Fire wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
The rhino has two more wounds...

So it is tougher than a Carnifex, just like I said it was.

I didn't mention weapons or buffs or anything else because all I was talking about was how tough it was. You called it ridiculous, and then showed how the Rhino is indeed tougher.

Very strange of you.

Except in practicum it isn't, because you can't give Rhino's FNP's and invulnerable saves. Well maybe IH can, but they wouldn't.

It's much the same for tyranids. You can, but you wouldn't.
Spending one of your two possible adaptations to give a single carnifex a 5++ save would be a serious waste of potential.
Same with spending your cast of catalyst on that.

Even if that's true, you're talking giving up two wounds for a massive amount more damage. The carnifex is still better than the Rhino on balance, points per unit. If they were bumped up two more wounds, they would be overpowered. As it stands they are about where they should be IMO.

Roberts84 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
The rhino has two more wounds...

So it is tougher than a Carnifex, just like I said it was.

I didn't mention weapons or buffs or anything else because all I was talking about was how tough it was. You called it ridiculous, and then showed how the Rhino is indeed tougher.

Very strange of you.

Except in practicum it isn't, because you can't give Rhino's FNP's and invulnerable saves. Well maybe IH can, but they wouldn't.

Salamander Rhinos ignore AP -1/-2, Black Templars can give their Rhinos a 5++, Ultramarines can make them -1 to hit, SM can have dedicated healing models that don't have to spend CP to heal their models every turn, they can give their Rhino +1 T with a psychic power, Rhinos can throw out smoke to become -1 to hit for a turn, I don't know why Iron Hands would be less likely to bring Rhinos than any other chapter, Rhinos just happen to be one of the least powerful choices in the Space Marine codex. Rhinos should have fewer wounds, put them down to 8, in line with a Dreadnought/Carnifex and make them a lot cheaper, change their repair ability to be 1W/turn to show just rugged it is and to keep it simple. Acid Maws being the same cost as rending claws is silly, but they should probably only be 1 pt, at the absolute most 2 pts compared to 0 for rending claws, that's 307 or 314 instead of 300 pts for 30. Genestealers getting this small free upgrade on a quarter of the models in their unit can pretty much be ignored.

I've had the discussion of what a Carnifex is before when I started writing a Tyranid Fandex, I wanted them to be a low-end monster as they are now so you can create a monster-mash list with more models in it, I totally get wanting them to be more badass but I do think GW got them mostly right. The only change they need for me to think they're perfect in terms of rules is replacing the monstrous scything talons text with "The bearer can make 1 additional attack with each of these weapons it is armed with each time it fights" and remove the -1 to hit from crushing claws, this would make crushing claws/monstrous scything talons a lot better of a combo. It would also be neat if the acid maw was something more than an auxiliary weapon for Dakkafexes, it could generate bonus attacks or maybe improve the AP of all Melee weapons the model is armed with. "Change the AP characteristic of all Melee weapons this model is armed with to -5". So acid maw crushing claw Carnifexes become the ultimate tank crushers, or you can skip the acid maw if you think your opponent is going to have invulns in melee.