Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all. I recently picked up my Nids again for the first time in god knows how many years. I had my first game with them since 5th ed, against Salamanders successors. I went in knowing I would lose, and viewed it more as a data collection mission. Obviously, Nids are a bottom tier army from all the info I can find, and I wanted to start a thread on how to fix their major issues. So to start off, here are some issues I noticed


Issue 1 - lack of additional Warlord trait stratagem. As far as I can tell, many codexes can give an additional model in the army a Warlord trait by some manner. Giving Tyranids this option may open some nice combinations - such as giving a Flyrant the Alien Cunning trait, without it being the galaxies most wanted.

One idea had was giving the Tyranid's an ability similar to the Alpha Legion's "I Am Alpharius" trait, which lets your Warlord status transfer to a new unit. As Tyranids have the most decentralised command structure, it would make sense and allow us to protect that Slay the Warlord point much easier. I would propose this be a stratagem, similar to as follows

3CP
<Name>

Use this stratagem before the battle begins. If your Warlord is slain, select 1 <HIVE FLEET> CHARACTER from the same detachment as your Warlord. That character is now treated as your Warlord for all intents and purposes. Generate a Warlord trait for your new Warlord whenever Warlord status is assigned to them. Your opponent does not gain victory points for Slay the Warlord unless they kill the current Warlord and there are no more eligible targets for this stratagem.

Another issue I had was psychic powers. For a psyker heavy army, Tyranids have limited Psychic Powers to draw upon, particularly when The Horror, a -1Ld debuff, is terrible. I thought maybe making the Horror useful I would be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

The Horror

The Horror has a Warp Charge of 7. If successfully cast, enemy units within 12" and Line of Sight may not fire Overwatch, until the beginning of your next Psychic Phase. In addition, All enemy units must roll 2D6 when taking Morale tests and discard the lowest result.

This modified The Horror makes it better at what its meant to do - make Morale Tests harder to pass - and also covers a major weakness in lack of overwatch denial.


I've also had a quick duke over at Scything Talons, particularly, have multiple pairs.

Statline - as exists for ScyTals/Monstrous/Massive

Rules:
A model equipped with 1 pair of Scything Talons may re-roll 1s to hit in combat. A model equipped with more than 1 set of Scything Talons re-rolls all to hit rolls in close combat, and makes 1 additional attack with their ScyTal/Mons/Massive talons.

For stuff like Hormagaunts it makes no difference, but it does give Mawlocs, Trygons and double talon Carnis, Tyrants and raveners as boost.



Let me know your thoughts and what else can be done to improve the bugs!

Lookbat the psychic awakening buffs. Its not all gold but some of its great.

You dont want wl traits. You want to pay the cp to give as many units as possible adaptations.

3CP
<Name>

Use this stratagem before the battle begins. If your Warlord is slain, select 1 <HIVE FLEET> CHARACTER from the same detachment as your Warlord. That character is now treated as your Warlord for all intents and purposes. Generate a Warlord trait for your new Warlord whenever Warlord status is assigned to them. Your opponent does not gain victory points for Slay the Warlord unless they kill the current Warlord and there are no more eligible targets for this stratagem.

I'd probably lower the cost by 1CP and drop that last sentence. Partly because Slay the Warlord isn't a thing in many missions (add a sentence to convey what your'e going for but with less specifics), and partly because it feels odd to force your opponent to slay every single character in your army for what might be the main objective of the mission. Basically, make it 2CP, and make the tyranid player use it every time their current warlord dies. Spending 6CP or 8CP during the game to have a warlord alive at the end is a bigger investment than 3CP and scales with the amount of effort your opponent puts into killing your warlord.

Another issue I had was psychic powers. For a psyker heavy army, Tyranids have limited Psychic Powers to draw upon, particularly when The Horror, a -1Ld debuff, is terrible. I thought maybe making the Horror useful I would be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

The Horror

The Horror has a Warp Charge of 7. If successfully cast, enemy units within 12" and Line of Sight may not fire Overwatch, until the beginning of your next Psychic Phase. In addition, All enemy units must roll 2D6 when taking Morale tests and discard the lowest result.

This modified The Horror makes it better at what its meant to do - make Morale Tests harder to pass - and also covers a major weakness in lack of overwatch denial.

I kind of thought we already had an overwatch denial power, but maybe I'm thinking of Mass Hypnosis. On the whole, I actually find the tyranid powers to be pretty decent, but that's just me.

I've also had a quick duke over at Scything Talons, particularly, have multiple pairs.

Statline - as exists for ScyTals/Monstrous/Massive

Rules:
A model equipped with 1 pair of Scything Talons may re-roll 1s to hit in combat. A model equipped with more than 1 set of Scything Talons re-rolls all to hit rolls in close combat, and makes 1 additional attack with their ScyTal/Mons/Massive talons.

For stuff like Hormagaunts it makes no difference, but it does give Mawlocs, Trygons and double talon Carnis, Tyrants and raveners as boost.

Not opposed, but I think what our MCs really need is easier access to crushing claws. A "smash" stratagem to up their anti-tank ability would work too.

Let me know your thoughts and what else can be done to improve the bugs!

Haven't used my 'nids much this edition. The main issue for me is that they've lost a lot of their "bugs from all angles" feel. I was a fan of 5th edition genestealer + lictor + Hive Commander shenanigans. Currently, we're a lot worse at outflanking/infiltrating/deepstriking than marines, 'crons, etc. Even Jormungandr feels kind of meh at it because of the turn 2 reserves rule and the 50% limit on how much of your army can be reserved. Basically, I wish we had more access to reserve rules. My bug collection is kind of limited, and many of my games with the 'nids feels like I'm running into a kill zone and praying I have enough left on the other side to kill something.

Bring back to the old versions of Endless Swarm where the unit being respawned just came back, no CP, no points, just set your unit back up at a table edge and play on. The same would go for spawning Gaunts from a Tervigon. Get a real endless horde of chaff to back up the heavy hitters.

For Tyranids, I think the Imperial Guard treatment is the correct way to go about things. One benefit for the basic Grunts/mediums and then something for the monsters.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Bring back to the old versions of Endless Swarm where the unit being respawned just came back, no CP, no points, just set your unit back up at a table edge and play on. The same would go for spawning Gaunts from a Tervigon. Get a real endless horde of chaff to back up the heavy hitters.

Eh. First, you'd have to reintroduce the concept of a "player's board edge" as it technically doesn't exist in 8th. Thing about Endless Horde is that it's either pointless if you need your gaunts to cross the table to engage a gunline, or else it's too good if you can win the game by throwing literally limitless numbers of obsec hordes on an objective. It would be fun to play an infinitely respawning wave in a narrative mission though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For Tyranids, I think the Imperial Guard treatment is the correct way to go about things. One benefit for the basic Grunts/mediums and then something for the monsters.

Probably a good approach. For all armies really. Although having benefits that only help one or the other isn't all that bad in an edition where you can take multiple detachments.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Bring back to the old versions of Endless Swarm where the unit being respawned just came back, no CP, no points, just set your unit back up at a table edge and play on. The same would go for spawning Gaunts from a Tervigon. Get a real endless horde of chaff to back up the heavy hitters.

Eh. First, you'd have to reintroduce the concept of a "player's board edge" as it technically doesn't exist in 8th. Thing about Endless Horde is that it's either pointless if you need your gaunts to cross the table to engage a gunline, or else it's too good if you can win the game by throwing literally limitless numbers of obsec hordes on an objective. It would be fun to play an infinitely respawning wave in a narrative mission though.

You'd probably have to bring back a version of mindless behavior where they don't count as securing objectives while out of synapse.

I do recall the old days where Tervigons would turn one advance, and then keep spawning screening units until the finally rolled doubles. Of course the power in those lists were the Flyrants and everything else mainly just needed to survive and hold ground.

The Horror also subtracts 1 from the target units hit rolls.

Wyldhunt wrote:

3CP
<Name>

Use this stratagem before the battle begins. If your Warlord is slain, select 1 <HIVE FLEET> CHARACTER from the same detachment as your Warlord. That character is now treated as your Warlord for all intents and purposes. Generate a Warlord trait for your new Warlord whenever Warlord status is assigned to them. Your opponent does not gain victory points for Slay the Warlord unless they kill the current Warlord and there are no more eligible targets for this stratagem.

I'd probably lower the cost by 1CP and drop that last sentence. Partly because Slay the Warlord isn't a thing in many missions (add a sentence to convey what your'e going for but with less specifics), and partly because it feels odd to force your opponent to slay every single character in your army for what might be the main objective of the mission. Basically, make it 2CP, and make the tyranid player use it every time their current warlord dies. Spending 6CP or 8CP during the game to have a warlord alive at the end is a bigger investment than 3CP and scales with the amount of effort your opponent puts into killing your warlord.

I feel I should point out that Custodes already have this for 1CP, and they don't give up victory points until their new warlord is slain.

Shoulder The Mantle
1CP
Use this Stratagem when your Warlord is slain. Choose a
SHIELD-CAPTAIN on the battlefield from your army. They
become your Warlord – choose or generate a Warlord
Trait for them immediately. For the purposes of the
mission, your Warlord is not considered to have been
slain while this model is on the battlefield.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Not opposed, but I think what our MCs really need is easier access to crushing claws. A "smash" stratagem to up their anti-tank ability would work too.

Definitely this. Tyranids have always had rather poor ranged anti-tank compared to most armies. However in the past they've made up for that by having good can openers in combat.
Now though most of their monsters aren't all that good at killing tanks in melee either. It would be great if I didn't have to wound T8 on a 5+ with practically everything.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Not opposed, but I think what our MCs really need is easier access to crushing claws. A "smash" stratagem to up their anti-tank ability would work too.

Definitely this. Tyranids have always had rather poor ranged anti-tank compared to most armies. However in the past they've made up for that by having good can openers in combat.
Now though most of their monsters aren't all that good at killing tanks in melee either. It would be great if I didn't have to wound T8 on a 5+ with practically everything.

Exactly! Though if I were to wishlist, I don't hate the idea of (re)introducing certain alternative anti-tank methods. Something like:

* Acid mines for biovores. Could be wargear, but would probably be a strat. Either just a spore launcher attack that does more damage against vehicles, or an effect that grants +1 to wound against the targeted vehicle for the rest of the turn as the acid eats away at the thing's hull integrity.

* Could do a similar variant of the "acid" rule for venom cannons.

* Self-destructing "bomb gaunts" taken as an upgrade in termagaunt/hormagaunt squads. Basically, a 1-use high-strength multidamage attack that kills the upgraded model.

* A special rule or strat to let larger hordes of gribblies semi-reliably inflict wounds on a vehicle. For every 6 models in the unit you choose not to attack with, automatically inflict a single AP 0 D1 wound. Not super deadly, but better than average for termagaunts (who only do 0.5 wounds to vehicles per 6 gaunts), cuts down on dice rolling, and indirectly makes tervigons a source of anti-tank as they keep your termagaunt squads' numbers up.

* I want more bio-electric haywire attacks. Give me a zappy lictor that can inflict mortals and to-hit penalties on vehicles in melee. So they have to sneak up and then short-circuit enemy artillery briefly. Give me bioelectric haywire guns for warriors and carnifexes and so forth. Something akin to the haywire gun that hive guard never use. Ditto bioplasma.

 Deadshot wrote:
Hey all. I recently picked up my Nids again for the first time in god knows how many years. I had my first game with them since 5th ed, against Salamanders successors. I went in knowing I would lose, and viewed it more as a data collection mission. Obviously, Nids are a bottom tier army from all the info I can find, and I wanted to start a thread on how to fix their major issues. So to start off, here are some issues I noticed

Salamanders are strong at close range, ranged shooting with an AP value of -2 or or better should work quite well against them. I don't think you need to get too discouraged, Tyranids are definitely strong enough to be fun.

Issue 1 - lack of additional Warlord trait stratagem. As far as I can tell, many codexes can give an additional model in the army a Warlord trait by some manner. Giving Tyranids this option may open some nice combinations - such as giving a Flyrant the Alien Cunning trait, without it being the galaxies most wanted.

Many armies also don't. Slay the WL is a massive balance problem as far as 10+ W Warlords goes and ITC is even worse. Alien Cunning is trash, it isn't worth the 1CP when your opponent knows you can wait finally placing him until the game begins.

One idea had was giving the Tyranid's an ability similar to the Alpha Legion's "I Am Alpharius" trait, which lets your Warlord status transfer to a new unit. As Tyranids have the most decentralised command structure, it would make sense and allow us to protect that Slay the Warlord point much easier.

I think copy-pasting the Custodes Stratagem would be fair enough.

Synaptic Crutch
1CP
Use this Stratagem when your <HIVE FLEET> Warlord is slain. Choose a CHARACTER on the battlefield from your army from the same <HIVE FLEET>. It becomes your Warlord – choose or generate a Warlord Trait for it immediately. For the purposes of the mission, your Warlord is not considered to have been slain while this model is on the battlefield.

Another issue I had was psychic powers. For a psyker heavy army, Tyranids have limited Psychic Powers to draw upon, particularly when The Horror, a -1Ld debuff, is terrible. I thought maybe making the Horror useful I would be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

This modified The Horror makes it better at what its meant to do - make Morale Tests harder to pass - and also covers a major weakness in lack of overwatch denial.

You're wrong on two counts, it's not a morale power, it's a hit penalty power, the morale thing is secondary and it should be because it won't affect every faction equally, the hit penalty is useful against anyone and very powerful against certain combos. It's also not in any way bad from my experience playing against it, I always hope my opponent forgoes taking/casting it. Psychic Awakening does give 1-3 more psychic powers depending on how many different non-Custom Hive Fleets you bring.

I've also had a quick duke over at Scything Talons, particularly, have multiple pairs.

For stuff like Hormagaunts it makes no difference, but it does give Mawlocs, Trygons and double talon Carnis, Tyrants and raveners as boost.

One pair of scything talons is actually very UP compared to a pair of monstrous rending claws, so if anything should get buffed it's the single pair. Introducing more re-rolls to the game is also generally a bad idea.

Let me know your thoughts and what else can be done to improve the bugs!

Zoanthropes (but not Neurothropes) ignore the Smite spam penalty.

Remove the re-roll 1s thing from all types of scything talon pairs and make them give +1 attack with the weapon, just like a chainsword/combat knife. How GW came to the conclusion that you only get one bonus attack when each weapon says that it grants +1 attack IDK. Same thing with Necrons being able to roll 0 on a D6 after modifiers despite the rules saying that is not the case.

Massive scything talons 0, Stinger salvoes 0 pts, Tervigon 160, Trygon (Prime) 140 (170), no reason to make the math more complicated than it needs to be and the LOW units need massive buffs AFAIK so despite not being knowledgable about Nids I think it's 100% safe to give them this weapon for free.

Hive Tyrant 140, wings to 50, Tyrannofex to 150. So. Freaking. Silly.

Dimachaeron 160. Also weapons trigger on unmodified rolls of 6, could be 6+ but definitely not just 6.

Decreased weapon prices for units with BS 5+.

I'd very much like Carnifexes to be tougher than Rhinos...

Monstrous Scything talons need to give a +1 str bonus I think, then at least a Carnifex is wounding a rhino on a 4 in melee as opposed to needing a 5(?!?!!)

Also I think we are an army focused on walls of alien living flesh, yet our wound counts are decidedly average... If we're leaning towards flesh than armour, nids need a higher wound count on our MC's since invuns are rare. Like stunningly rare and we struggle against current AP heavy meta.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Monstrous Scything talons need to give a +1 str bonus I think, then at least a Carnifex is wounding a rhino on a 4 in melee as opposed to needing a 5(?!?!!)

Also I think we are an army focused on walls of alien living flesh, yet our wound counts are decidedly average... If we're leaning towards flesh than armour, nids need a higher wound count on our MC's since invuns are rare. Like stunningly rare and we struggle against current AP heavy meta.

Funny that you mention armour because I was actually thinking that we need a way to get better armour. Genestealers can take Extended Carapaces and I think that should be an army wide upgrade, giving +1 armour for 2ppm or 5ppm for Monsters, but at the cost of any "speed" rules like Swift and Deadly or Bounding Leap. There are even parts in many kits for extended carapaces as many are 4th Ed or slightly updated 4th Ed kits.

Like, 5ppm for a 2+ save on Carnifexes or Hive Tyrants? With how AP works in 8th Ed, it makes them minorly more survivable vs Lascannons, Meltas and PF, and much more vs Bolt Rifles and similar. Plus it allows one to probably do a Nidzilla list, AND give an HQ a 2+ armour like everyone else.

 Deadshot wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Monstrous Scything talons need to give a +1 str bonus I think, then at least a Carnifex is wounding a rhino on a 4 in melee as opposed to needing a 5(?!?!!)

Also I think we are an army focused on walls of alien living flesh, yet our wound counts are decidedly average... If we're leaning towards flesh than armour, nids need a higher wound count on our MC's since invuns are rare. Like stunningly rare and we struggle against current AP heavy meta.

Funny that you mention armour because I was actually thinking that we need a way to get better armour. Genestealers can take Extended Carapaces and I think that should be an army wide upgrade, giving +1 armour for 2ppm or 5ppm for Monsters, but at the cost of any "speed" rules like Swift and Deadly or Bounding Leap. There are even parts in many kits for extended carapaces as many are 4th Ed or slightly updated 4th Ed kits.

Like, 5ppm for a 2+ save on Carnifexes or Hive Tyrants? With how AP works in 8th Ed, it makes them minorly more survivable vs Lascannons, Meltas and PF, and much more vs Bolt Rifles and similar. Plus it allows one to probably do a Nidzilla list, AND give an HQ a 2+ armour like everyone else.

How are you going to keep track of all this? One or two units getting it with the new Psychic Awakening evolution thing is amazingly fluffy, but if every unit is customized it's too much to keep track of IMO. I know my Necrons need tokens to keep track of who has what buff once I start spamming characters. I doubt someone who doesn't play Nids can distinguish an up-armoured bug from a regular one. The same is true for guns to some extent but I feel like the Sv thing is too small. The burrowing Hive Fleet should serve if you wanted some more resistance to low-AP shooting but it's probably not competitive enough or less fun than the alternatives, but it's there.

 vict0988 wrote:
How are you going to keep track of all this? One or two units getting it with the new Psychic Awakening evolution thing is amazingly fluffy, but if every unit is customized it's too much to keep track of IMO. I know my Necrons need tokens to keep track of who has what buff once I start spamming characters. I doubt someone who doesn't play Nids can distinguish an up-armoured bug from a regular one. The same is true for guns to some extent but I feel like the Sv thing is too small. The burrowing Hive Fleet should serve if you wanted some more resistance to low-AP shooting but it's probably not competitive enough or less fun than the alternatives, but it's there.

I would assume you'd track these upgrades by modelling them on the models. Just like what players did back when you could take extended carapace on your T-Fex in previous editions.

Its wargear. Adrenal glands and toxic sacs were rarely ever modeled onto a unit. Carapace swarms are impossible to model. How do tau keep track of all their sub systems in 7th? Its wargear on your army list.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Monstrous Scything talons need to give a +1 str bonus I think, then at least a Carnifex is wounding a rhino on a 4 in melee as opposed to needing a 5(?!?!!)

Also I think we are an army focused on walls of alien living flesh, yet our wound counts are decidedly average... If we're leaning towards flesh than armour, nids need a higher wound count on our MC's since invuns are rare. Like stunningly rare and we struggle against current AP heavy meta.

Funny that you mention armour because I was actually thinking that we need a way to get better armour. Genestealers can take Extended Carapaces and I think that should be an army wide upgrade, giving +1 armour for 2ppm or 5ppm for Monsters, but at the cost of any "speed" rules like Swift and Deadly or Bounding Leap. There are even parts in many kits for extended carapaces as many are 4th Ed or slightly updated 4th Ed kits.

Like, 5ppm for a 2+ save on Carnifexes or Hive Tyrants? With how AP works in 8th Ed, it makes them minorly more survivable vs Lascannons, Meltas and PF, and much more vs Bolt Rifles and similar. Plus it allows one to probably do a Nidzilla list, AND give an HQ a 2+ armour like everyone else.

How are you going to keep track of all this? One or two units getting it with the new Psychic Awakening evolution thing is amazingly fluffy, but if every unit is customized it's too much to keep track of IMO. I know my Necrons need tokens to keep track of who has what buff once I start spamming characters. I doubt someone who doesn't play Nids can distinguish an up-armoured bug from a regular one. The same is true for guns to some extent but I feel like the Sv thing is too small. The burrowing Hive Fleet should serve if you wanted some more resistance to low-AP shooting but it's probably not competitive enough or less fun than the alternatives, but it's there.

The same way you keep track of all changes - writing an army list and modelling the wargear on the model. Same as we did 4 editions ago when I could make my Hive Tyrant and Carnifex have 40 upgrades and cost over 350pts.

The burrowing fleet only works for infantry I believe? This is mostly for monsters. 60pts to make your Termagants have a 5+Save is way too much except in specific circumstances. But Carnis, Trygons, Warrior Primes getting a 2+? Ideal. Don't forget apart from the Warrior Prime and Tyrant Guard no infantry in the codex has better than a 4+ Save naturally.

Has anything been done by GW to fix the Lictor - one model per unit, seems like their specialty should be character assassin, but they are probably the worst at this job not just in their faction, but in all the game.

 Stormonu wrote:
Has anything been done by GW to fix the Lictor - one model per unit, seems like their specialty should be character assassin, but they are probably the worst at this job not just in their faction, but in all the game.

Sort of. They gave them a new stratagem to give them +1 to charge, and ignore overwatch. They now have a small role as an overwatch suppressor. It's a band-aid fix however, and they still could use a total rework.

Tyranids as a whole desperately needed an overwatch suppressor.

Nurglitch wrote:
Tyranids as a whole desperately needed an overwatch suppressor.

No they didnt. Its not like overwatch is actually a threat for anyone. Hitting on 6s means you roll a ton of dice to little or no effect. The things that can do better than 6+ hits are few and far between. Nobody needs protection from overwatch because overwatch is mostly a waste of everyones time.

 Lance845 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Tyranids as a whole desperately needed an overwatch suppressor.

No they didnt. Its not like overwatch is actually a threat for anyone. Hitting on 6s means you roll a ton of dice to little or no effect. The things that can do better than 6+ hits are few and far between. Nobody needs protection from overwatch because overwatch is mostly a waste of everyones time.

Obviously you've never been hit with a 3d6 Super-Flamer, or had someone use "Defensive Gunners!" and "Vengeance for Cadia!" on you in the same Overwatch, or faced down T'au overwatch, or had a Swarmlord kick it when a Doomsday Ark gets a surprising 3 hits on Overwatch, or... etc.

The swarmlord in standard 40k is mostly a waste of points. Any large target like that that out paces its own protector units is going to be shot to death by turn 2 regardless.

Flamers have generally short range. Shorter than deepstrike. And nids have plenty of ways to make 9" charges successful. And even then, the nids bread and butter is overwhelming threats and redundancies. You dont bring 1 unit of genestealers, you bring 3. 3d6 flamer hits wont stop a unit of 20 making contact let alone units of 30 hormagaunts. Once one unit is in, all the others have their opening.

As for stratagems, again, few and far between.

Here's my Big List Of Gripes with the current edition and some ideas on tweaks.

Army-Wide

-Adaptive Physiologies are fun and fluffy- being limited to two is really annoying, in how it constrains army builds and doesn't scale to game size. I would change it to 1CP per Physiology, with no 'freebie' from sacrificing a WLT, but also limit. You want to pay a CP for a 5+ invuln on each of your monstrous creatures? Knock yourself out.

-Most of the custom hive fleet traits are mediocre, but the fact that they close off access to special relics, psychic powers, WLTs, and stratagems really bites, especially with the additions in Blood of Baal. I'd simply have the build-your-own be explicitly a splinter fleet system, so you pick a parent fleet to inherit from, just like how it works for Space Marines. (for what it's worth, I feel every army should be treated this way)

-Endless Swarm should be reworked into the 'remove a unit and redeploy it' type, so that it doesn't cost reinforcement points. Right now it's pretty much useless, when it has the potential to be a fun and fluffy part of the game.

-Tyranids need more ways to avoid Overwatch and prevent units from falling back in melee. The Lictor and Toxicrene stratagems are great, but also limited to those units. I'd like to see more generic stratagems with these goals- say, one to pay a CP to get a 4+ invuln against Overwatch for one unit, and another to pay a CP to get a free round of attacks if an enemy tries to fall back. You'd still need the specialists if you want to shut down Overwatch/fall-back entirely, and it'd be limited to one unit per turn, but it would make your opponent think twice about relying on Overwatch bonuses or just retreating out of melee.

Weapons/Biomorphs

-Small melee weapons really need a rework. Scything Talons are extremely poor, and Boneswords are strictly better than Rending Claws in virtually all cases. For small creatures, I'd like to see Scything Talons provide extra attacks, Rending Claws stay unchanged (AP-1, AP-4 on a 6), and Boneswords provide D2 (instead of their current extra attack / AP-2). This gives each one a distinct role, and makes taking Scything Talons as a secondary weapon on Warriors or Raveners feel less useless.

-For Monstrous Creatures, again, an extra attack for Scything Talons would make them significantly better, and more able to compete with the otherwise superior Monstrous Rending Claws.

-Monstrous Rending Claws really shouldn't be free; it makes them overwhelmingly the best melee option for a Tyrant.

-Barbed Strangers are just less-consistent Deathspitters- I'd like to see them bumped up to S8/AP0/D1, with the same bonus to-hit against large units, to make them explicitly anti-horde.

-Deathspitters themselves outshine all the other Warrior/Ravener weapon options by a significant margin, so I would like to see them increased in points but with a corresponding drop to the base Warrior/Ravener cost (ie, keep a Warrior w/ Deathspitter at its current cost, but make a Warrior w/ Spinefists or Devourer cheaper).

-Spinefists as well are pretty crap; give them AP-1 and suddenly they have something of a role for both Warriors and Gaunts.

-Regular Crushing Claws (for Tyrant Guard) ought to be a bit cheaper, given that they represent some significant trade-offs for the Guard.

-The Fleshborer Hive looks great, but is a pretty poor weapon for the Tyrannofex, since the Acid Spray is basically it but better- same range, about 2/3 as many hits on average, but not affected by to-hit penalties, AP-1, and DD3. If you bump up the Hive to 24" and give the Tyrannofex BS3+, then it starts looking a lot more useful.

-Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots are generally outclassed by Brainleech Devourers- 6 shots at S6/AP0 is almost always better than 3 shots at S7/AP-1. I think making it AP-2 (it's a more aggressively acidic projectile, right?) and bumping up the price very slightly could work, making it the better choice against light armor without also making it a premier horde-buster.

Codex Units

-Swarmlord is a bit too much of an auto-include for melee lists, IMO. Its ability is just too situationally powerful, so it's hard to price so that it's not a must-have for throwing Genestealer hordes, but it's already too expensive for other builds to even consider. I think it would be best to slightly tone down Hive Commander; maybe have it be just a 6" bonus move to a friendly unit instead of shooting, with a ignificant drop in points.

-Tervigons are still a bit too expensive for their durability. They need more of a nudge. They would also benefit a lot from either an innate invulnerable save, or more wounds on the profile. I'm inclined to favor the latter just because it makes for a thematic difference between Tyranid monsters and other races' vehicles.

-Genestealers are weird in 8th. I don't think Scything Talons or Acid Maws should be free (especially not with the change to Scything Talons above). And the fact that they deploy normally but have Swift and Deadly seems very odd to me- they're fast, but not Hormagaunt-fast, and they absolutely ought to be infiltrators. I think trading Swift and Deadly for the ability to deploy closer to the enemy would be fair, and allow for some more variety in their use than the Swarmlord toss.

-Hormagaunts are in a rough place. An extra attack from Scything Talons instead of re-rolling 1s would, I think, give them back some credibility as melee combatants, not just slightly faster cannon fodder. And paying 2pts for Adrenal Glands is excessive, it should be just 1pt like everything else.

-Tyrant Guard need a significant points drop. When you compare them to Bullgryns, they're just not as impressive. A Tyranid player should have to really think about whether they want a Tyrant to have wings for mobility, or cost-effective protection from Tyrant Guard. The Shieldwall ability should also be adjusted to allow them to intercept hits and then resolve those hits against the Guard- it makes no sense to me that it kicks in after the Tyrant has already lost a wound. This means taking more damage than currently given their less-impressive defensive profile, so again, points drop.

-Hive Guard are fun, but the Shock Cannon is significantly overpriced and the Impaler didn't need a drop. I'd revert the Impaler change and give the Shock Cannon a heavy discount, so that massing them to Haywire vehicles to death is actually viable.

-The Haruspex and Toxicrene are still just a bit too expensive/fragile. As with the Tervigon, I think either an innate invuln or more wounds would help.

-Tyrannofexes really should not be BS4+; they're weapon-beasts. Bump them up to 3+ and it also helps address the weaknesses of both the Fleshborer Hive (weak) and Rupture Cannon (swingy).

-I find Carnifexes a bit underwhelming, but there's nothing that really stands out as a problem. As with the other monsters, more wounds would certainly help, and changing Scything Talons as I proposed would at least make Screamer-Killers better able to fight hordes.

-The Mawloc, Harpy, and Hive Crone are all still too expensive for what they do.

Forge World Units

-The Dimachaeron needs a full re-work, because it sucks. I don't even know where to start.

-When the Malanthrope released, it wasn't a shrouding model, and I don't really like that role for it. I think it would be more thematically fitting for it to convey a combat aura of some kind- maybe re-rolling wound rolls- since its entire purpose it to help the hive fleet absorb DNA and adapt to local prey. Maybe have it start as re-roll 1s, but if you wipe out a unit near enough to the Malanthrope, it turns into re-roll any.

-Hierodules need invulnerable saves to be worthwhile, and at least a mild points drop.

-Harridans and Hierophants need a significant points drop.

-The Stone-Crusher Carnifex is a bit too expensive for what it does; it's useful, but the lack of spore cysts is a killer.

*****

All that said, I'm actually not nearly as salty about 8th edition as the above might imply. We're not in a terrible place anymore, but there are just so many little areas where things fall flat, and precious few areas where the army really shines.

I'd like cheaper gaunts

I think that the Carnifex needs to be singled out for a complete relook at what it is. I think that it (and Hive Guard) should be the only 2+ saves in the book. Its default Strength should be 7, 8 on the Charge.

And H-Gaunts need to be cheaper. Same price as T-Gants.

 catbarf wrote:
-I find Carnifexes a bit underwhelming, but there's nothing that really stands out as a problem.

Nothing stands out? Rhinos have more wounds. Carnifexes wound Rhinos on 5's.

Carnifexes should be better than Rhinos!!!

 catbarf wrote:
-Hierodules need invulnerable saves to be worthwhile, and at least a mild points drop.

Significant price drop. They're not worth over 400 points each. They're not even worth 300 points each.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that the Carnifex needs to be singled out for a complete relook at what it is. I think that it (and Hive Guard) should be the only 2+ saves in the book. Its default Strength should be 7, 8 on the Charge.

And H-Gaunts need to be cheaper. Same price as T-Gants.

 catbarf wrote:
-I find Carnifexes a bit underwhelming, but there's nothing that really stands out as a problem.

Nothing stands out? Rhinos are tougher. They wound Rhinos on 5's.

Carnifexes should be better than Rhinos!!!

 catbarf wrote:
-Hierodules need invulnerable saves to be worthwhile, and at least a mild points drop.

Significant price drop. They're not worth over 400 points each. They're not even worth 300 points each.

I'm okay with Carnifexes being at their current level of resilience if priced appropriately; it's neither especially strong nor especially tough but it could work as an in-between to Warrior-sized creatures and Tyrannofex-sized creatures. I'd also be fine with restoring it to its former glory, for what it's worth.

Re: Hierodules I was thinking a mild points drop and a 5+ invuln would do a lot for it. The Scythed Hierodule in particular is on the cusp of being genuinely useful when taken with Dermic Symbiosis. It got a nice secondary benefit from Blood of Baal in that a super-heavy auxiliary detachment can be its own hive fleet, so there's that too.

Most things will wound it on a 5+, and there are so many D3 wound items out there that it's just too easy to kill quickly without some sort of FNP.

Carnifexes should be very tough, and very powerful when they smash into things. Right now their "smash" is a super-swingy MW rule (so many Tyranid things are super swingy). A Rhino shouldn't out tough a Carnifex. I know I sound fixated on this point, but it just boggles my mind that we live in a world where a Carnifex is easier to kill than a Rhino, and is hardly able to wound it.

 catbarf wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think that the Carnifex needs to be singled out for a complete relook at what it is. I think that it (and Hive Guard) should be the only 2+ saves in the book. Its default Strength should be 7, 8 on the Charge.

And H-Gaunts need to be cheaper. Same price as T-Gants.

 catbarf wrote:
-I find Carnifexes a bit underwhelming, but there's nothing that really stands out as a problem.

Nothing stands out? Rhinos are tougher. They wound Rhinos on 5's.

Carnifexes should be better than Rhinos!!!

 catbarf wrote:
-Hierodules need invulnerable saves to be worthwhile, and at least a mild points drop.

Significant price drop. They're not worth over 400 points each. They're not even worth 300 points each.

I'm okay with Carnifexes being at their current level of resilience if priced appropriately; it's neither especially strong nor especially tough but it could work as an in-between to Warrior-sized creatures and Tyrannofex-sized creatures. I'd also be fine with restoring it to its former glory, for what it's worth.

Re: Hierodules I was thinking a mild points drop and a 5+ invuln would do a lot for it. The Scythed Hierodule in particular is on the cusp of being genuinely useful when taken with Dermic Symbiosis. It got a nice secondary benefit from Blood of Baal in that a super-heavy auxiliary detachment can be its own hive fleet, so there's that too.

Carnifexes are repeatedly called a "Living Engine of Destruction" and a living battering ram. The fact they are maginally stronger than a Warrior Prime or Broodlord, Ork Nob, Custodian, Killa Kan, etc? No go. Consider a few codexes ago they were Str 9 base. 4th Ed had them strength 9 (10 for +10pts) in a Max 10 system. They should be able to rip anything apart in melee. Hell even making them Str 7 would make their problems much smaller, and Ztr 8 or 9 would make them really decent at tank hunting. Str16 or 18 with Crushing claws might even give them a fighting chance vs Knights.