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Well there are, probably, degrees to all stuff. It is one thing to go up in arms, because your army has a 54% win rate and theirs has a 57% win rate. It is another if someone decides that they are not going to play someone, because they have FW in their army. Even if GW desinged their opponents army in mind with clear mass FW use.

Karol wrote:

Spoiler:

Moriarty wrote:

Karol wrote:

On a philosophical note, if you consider someone else could be enjoying the hobby the ‘wrong way’, then somewhere, someone else could think the same about you. So, as we ALL are enjoying the hobby the ‘wrong way’, we can just get on with it without stressing what others are up to.

this smells of relativism. Because if it was true we would have to accept that there could be not only more then one good way to do things, which is possible, but that all ways to play are right, and I am sure that not all the way to play or enjoy the hobby are right.

I agree, but consider all ways to play/enjoy the hobby to be equally wrong, so there should be no need to get worked up about it.

That is a sound argument, although it is less easy to implement when in real life people do force others to play in a specific way. It is hard to not get worked up, when others start deciding for you what you should, or shouldn't, be buying.

umm, is someone holding a gun to your head??? No one can force you to play the game(unless it's Deer Hunter russian roulette), irrespective of how they may make you feel.

You, believe it or not, have the power!
what power?
the power of Voodoo
Voodoo?
who do?
you do
do what?
that thing you do so well

(bonus points if you know what that's from without looking it up)

 Canadian 5th wrote:
The complaining mostly seems to go one way. The fluffy casual crowd don't want to play certain armies, use certain missions, or allow skew lists in pick-up games. The tournament crowd just say, 'bring your best and play within the rules'.

The complaining mostly seems to go one way. The hardcore competitive crowd don't want to play non-ITC, play Open or Narrative Play, take fluffy lists, or play without optional tournament suggestions like Rule of 3. The casual crowd just say 'bring a friendly attitude and play within the spirit of the game'.

All I have to do is portray it like my way is the correct, default way to play, and then the other guys sound like the troublemakers by default. Funny how that works.

Karol wrote:

Moriarty wrote:

Karol wrote:

On a philosophical note, if you consider someone else could be enjoying the hobby the ‘wrong way’, then somewhere, someone else could think the same about you. So, as we ALL are enjoying the hobby the ‘wrong way’, we can just get on with it without stressing what others are up to.

this smells of relativism. Because if it was true we would have to accept that there could be not only more then one good way to do things, which is possible, but that all ways to play are right, and I am sure that not all the way to play or enjoy the hobby are right.

I agree, but consider all ways to play/enjoy the hobby to be equally wrong, so there should be no need to get worked up about it.

That is a sound argument, although it is less easy to implement when in real life people do force others to play in a specific way. It is hard to not get worked up, when others start deciding for you what you should, or shouldn't, be buying.

Wow. I can see people pushing to field ‘optimal‘ units, especially on t’Interwebs, but _ forced _ is a strong word. Bullying is a thing, but generally requires compliance on the victim’s part.

 catbarf wrote:
The complaining mostly seems to go one way. The hardcore competitive crowd don't want to play non-ITC, play Open or Narrative Play, take fluffy lists, or play without optional tournament suggestions like Rule of 3. The casual crowd just say 'bring a friendly attitude and play within the spirit of the game'.

All I have to do is portray it like my way is the correct, default way to play, and then the other guys sound like the troublemakers by default. Funny how that works.

The thing is that it wasn't us who opened a thread about ditching the ITC, how broken marines are, or on the etiquette of bringing LoW units. We'll argue our case when those threads pop up but I haven't seen us create one yet.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
The complaining mostly seems to go one way. The hardcore competitive crowd don't want to play non-ITC, play Open or Narrative Play, take fluffy lists, or play without optional tournament suggestions like Rule of 3. The casual crowd just say 'bring a friendly attitude and play within the spirit of the game'.

All I have to do is portray it like my way is the correct, default way to play, and then the other guys sound like the troublemakers by default. Funny how that works.

The thing is that it wasn't us who opened a thread about ditching the ITC, how broken marines are, or on the etiquette of bringing LoW units. We'll argue our case when those threads pop up but I haven't seen us create one yet.

I wouldn't say those threads were created by the "super casual" crowd either.

Perhaps let's lay off of the whole "them and us" thing?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
The thing is that it wasn't us who opened a thread about ditching the ITC, how broken marines are, or on the etiquette of bringing LoW units.

The most recent ITC one I recall seeing was about ditching the ITC scenarios in tournaments in favour of using the ones from CA19, so that data being fed back to GW about the game actually reflects the scenarios they suggest for use in the game, not third party ones - and would, therefore, actually be more useful for balancing the game. Pretty sure changing the scenarios in use in tournament play is a competitive crowd thing.

Not sure which broken SM thread you're talking about - there've been a few - but ITC win rates are often a discussion point within them, and they're a data point normally focused on by the competitive crowd.

The LoW one probably is more of a casual question, but trying to make sure you're not inflicting an unbalanced game - well, more so than 40k normally is - on an opponent should be seen as a positive. Admittedly, the answer should really just've been "check with your local players", but there you go. As with many threads, that one has branched off down a few rabbit hols since it started.

So, 2/3 of those topics seem to be competitive, rather than casual - care to try that one again?

Racerguy180 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoiler:

Moriarty wrote:

Karol wrote:

On a philosophical note, if you consider someone else could be enjoying the hobby the ‘wrong way’, then somewhere, someone else could think the same about you. So, as we ALL are enjoying the hobby the ‘wrong way’, we can just get on with it without stressing what others are up to.

this smells of relativism. Because if it was true we would have to accept that there could be not only more then one good way to do things, which is possible, but that all ways to play are right, and I am sure that not all the way to play or enjoy the hobby are right.

I agree, but consider all ways to play/enjoy the hobby to be equally wrong, so there should be no need to get worked up about it.

That is a sound argument, although it is less easy to implement when in real life people do force others to play in a specific way. It is hard to not get worked up, when others start deciding for you what you should, or shouldn't, be buying.

umm, is someone holding a gun to your head??? No one can force you to play the game(unless it's Deer Hunter russian roulette), irrespective of how they may make you feel.

You, believe it or not, have the power!
what power?
the power of Voodoo
Voodoo?
who do?
you do
do what?
that thing you do so well

(bonus points if you know what that's from without looking it up)

I had to google because you got the song stuck in my head and it was tormenting me. However in light of the fact that some might be too young/unexposed to the classics :

The only thing that annoys me about the game are those elitists who berate you because you don’t care about painting your army and look at you like a freaking criminal

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
The only thing that annoys me about the game are those elitists who berate you because you don’t care about painting your army and look at you like a freaking criminal

While I dont agree with anyone haggling anyone over a game, you should probably understand why many players do not want to play vs a unpainted army. They both right and wrong at the same time. I, for the sake of everyones sanity will not list the reasons why but im sure if you question those "elites" about why they do not like it you will get a few answers.

You need to remember, this is a social game. You need at least one other person to play the game. If your views or desires do not match up then its best to not play with each other. Both you and the elites are valid in your desires but they do not match up. I myself would not play against your un-painted army. It goes against MY personal expectations of the hobby. It does not mean i look down upon you for your hobby choices or think you are bad guy in any manner. We just are looking for different things. No harm no foul. But if they are straight up berating you for a unpainted army in a public space then that shop is probably a toxic play space and you should find a new one.

Table wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
The only thing that annoys me about the game are those elitists who berate you because you don’t care about painting your army and look at you like a freaking criminal

While I dont agree with anyone haggling anyone over a game, you should probably understand why many players do not want to play vs a unpainted army. They both right and wrong at the same time. I, for the sake of everyones sanity will not list the reasons why but im sure if you question those "elites" about why they do not like it you will get a few answers.

You need to remember, this is a social game. You need at least one other person to play the game. If your views or desires do not match up then its best to not play with each other. Both you and the elites are valid in your desires but they do not match up. I myself would not play against your un-painted army. It goes against MY personal expectations of the hobby. It does not mean i look down upon you for your hobby choices or think you are bad guy in any manner. We just are looking for different things. No harm no foul. But if they are straight up berating you for a unpainted army in a public space then that shop is probably a toxic play space and you should find a new one.

I know some people will just say they don’t want to play you, which I don’t like but I can live with. It’s the people who insist that it’s part of the game and that if you aren’t doing it then you’re besmirching the hobby and need to stay at home so people don’t have to look at the ugly grey plastic

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Table wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
The only thing that annoys me about the game are those elitists who berate you because you don’t care about painting your army and look at you like a freaking criminal

While I dont agree with anyone haggling anyone over a game, you should probably understand why many players do not want to play vs a unpainted army. They both right and wrong at the same time. I, for the sake of everyones sanity will not list the reasons why but im sure if you question those "elites" about why they do not like it you will get a few answers.

You need to remember, this is a social game. You need at least one other person to play the game. If your views or desires do not match up then its best to not play with each other. Both you and the elites are valid in your desires but they do not match up. I myself would not play against your un-painted army. It goes against MY personal expectations of the hobby. It does not mean i look down upon you for your hobby choices or think you are bad guy in any manner. We just are looking for different things. No harm no foul. But if they are straight up berating you for a unpainted army in a public space then that shop is probably a toxic play space and you should find a new one.

I know some people will just say they don’t want to play you, which I don’t like but I can live with. It’s the people who insist that it’s part of the game and that if you aren’t doing it then you’re besmirching the hobby and need to stay at home so people don’t have to look at the ugly grey plastic

Yes, those people need to f right off. Its a game and a hobby and no where in the rule book is it stated that ALL armies must be painted. So I have your proverbial back on this point. I still would not play with you until you had a painted army. But thats me. I understand you do not share my values and wish you the best of luck finding a fitting game. We all deserve to have fun. None of use should be shamed for having different expectations. It is like when "casuals" and "pro players" make jabs at each other and call the other toxic for not playing the way they want (actually only a few players I have seen ever do this...its more of a internet beef.). Never paint your army, if that is what you want to do. Its your money, your call. But my point is that logic also swings the other way. Much luck in your future gaming however as everyone deserves to play without toxic comments.

Racerguy180 786392 wrote:


umm, is someone holding a gun to your head??? No one can force you to play the game(unless it's Deer Hunter russian roulette), irrespective of how they may make you feel.

Go in to the store. Say you want to play, put out your army out. Get told that, this store plays only X or plays only without X. Now you just have been forced to play in a specific way, without the use of guns or magic.

And I do not know what you mean by bonus points. I don't think dakka has a post scoring system.

I know some people will just say they don’t want to play you, which I don’t like but I can live with. It’s the people who insist that it’s part of the game and that if you aren’t doing it then you’re besmirching the hobby and need to stay at home so people don’t have to look at the ugly grey plastic

not playing someone, because you don't like them, still makes more sense then not playing someone because their army aren't painted, the army isn't build in specific way by your opponent etc.

I don't know why it would be considered fanatism. People just don't like to paint, or don't want to spend money on paints.

In sports, specially outside of actual tournaments, no one cares, what kind of a colour is your protector or if your spandex has the proper shade of blue or red.

I get not liking people, even on olympic level, people that dislike each other do not shake hands. I also get why on a national or above level, you can get disqualifed for not having proper gear or broken seals on it. It all makes sense.

But someone saying that they won't play vs an unfinished or unpainted army, is on the tier of someone coming up to practic and saying they will only train vs someone who has a full offical euro champ get up, with all the seals intact, checked three times by a judge or other third party.

And that to me is fantatism. Specially as I have never seen or heard of someone with an unpainted army, say they would never ever play vs someone with a painted one.

Removed - Rule #1 please

You can do your hobby however you want. But that means so can everyone else. You are free to disagree with someone on their hobby, as they are with you.

You can do anything you want, assuming you are prepared to accept the consequences.

Karol wrote:
I don't know why it would be considered fanatism. People just don't like to paint, or don't want to spend money on paints.

In sports, specially outside of actual tournaments, no one cares, what kind of a colour is your protector or if your spandex has the proper shade of blue or red.

I get not liking people, even on olympic level, people that dislike each other do not shake hands. I also get why on a national or above level, you can get disqualifed for not having proper gear or broken seals on it. It all makes sense.

But someone saying that they won't play vs an unfinished or unpainted army, is on the tier of someone coming up to practic and saying they will only train vs someone who has a full offical euro champ get up, with all the seals intact, checked three times by a judge or other third party.

And that to me is fantatism. Specially as I have never seen or heard of someone with an unpainted army, say they would never ever play vs someone with a painted one.

Removed - Rule #1 please

You do not want to paint your army. I do not want to play against a unpainted army. Instead of going on with a sports tirade you could understand the basic fact that It is fine for you to play your way as it fine to play my why. Its not "fantatism". Its a preference. I dont call you out for being too lazy or too selfish to paint your army. And you should not call me a fanatic. Both are jerk moves. If it makes you feel bad or guilty about not painting your army then that is on you and you alone. As for me, Id decline the game, shake your hand and perhaps get you a beer in consolation. We just want different things from the hobby. Its that simple.

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, fun in a competitive tourney?
This is hard to achieve - just my impression.

Plus winning, prize money etc make everything fun. I think that eating 60 jumbo dumplings in 1 min 37 is insane, but when it comes with a new juicer and 100$, it becomes a different thing.

Yeah, a job. Or a task. I.E., the exact opposite of a hobby.

Once, I played in a GT semifinale. There were 3 semifinales and the first 16 (best painted and best whatnot included) made it to the final.
It was a very competitive event with 5 games and there were 7 players on top (Orks, CSM, 5 Eldar incl. me).

On the other hand, the final was very relaxed and all games looked like friendly games.

Karol seems to view everything through the lens of compeitive sports. the thing is, let's use a sports analogy.

Warhammer 40k is Soccer (or football for you euros) at the most basic level of soccer/football its some kids kicking the ball around in the backyard, they're not even sure where the goal is they're just running around having fun, no special equipment, their ball is a old half deflated basketball. but they're having fun. then at the other end of the spectrum you have world championship level play, people practice months if not years, hone their bodies, use high grade, expensive equipment, the rules are tightly regimented with regs on what equipment can be used, specific pressure within the ball etc. big money in prizes and endorsements etc.

and guess what... it's ALL soccer, and the point of it is to have fun, no one (sane) is going to run out and tell those kids kicking the ball in the back yard they're doing it wrong. likewise there are fans of soccer who enjoy simply watching it, or reading about it, or collecting stats or trading cards (.. ok I dunno about trading cards, they're not a thing in Canada, but maybe in the EU?)

they're all soccer fans and no one begrudges how someone tries to play, now certain leagues and orginizations will have their own standards but if you just wanna kick a ball around, people think thats cool.

Some people do not enjoy playing against unpainted armies.
I know that when I go to the GW store, it is to watch games more than to play them, and I spend most of my time looking at other people's painted models.

Painted models shows a few things - one, I learn about how to use new paints and painting techniques, and I get to see how things work on different ranges that I will never own or paint, which is part of the hobby for me and for them; and two, seeing that these models are painted confirms for me that much of this hobby is lonely, or at least is done alone, with paints and glue, looking forward to sharing this aspect of the hobby with others when we see each other again...and this keeps me in the hobby, because frankly I am not interested in playing 8th edition with anything more than 500 points, and even at that I am not so interested in playing 8th edition.

About that, part of the hobby for me to reading dakka and other forums and adding the occasional perhaps snarky retort as if I were in the GW store and commenting about the way that 8th edition rules work. This is something that I enjoy, because I think that my voice adds to the information background that hopefully shapes expectations of changes to future iterations of the game.

All of that aside, I don't mind playing against bare plastic minis if and only if the other player is then also part of this conversations about how to model and paint the minis as the weeks and months go by... if there is progress, or attempts at progress, skill development, and all of that, then I don't mind that the models are not painted for a while but if there is no progress on this front then yes, I will not count that person as someone who I wish to spend hobby time with because the parts that I like the best are missing.

Nothing personal, but also nothing rewarding in it for me, and rather disappointing for me, ... if anyone wants to call this "elitist" then fine. Not my word, but whatever. I guess so...

Do your hobby the way you want to do it. Its your free time to enjoy


Let others do their hobby the way they want to do it. It's their free time to enjoy.


Respect the rules and standards of your local club/group/gathering/tournament site. It's the groups free time to enjoy as a community, not just as individuals.


Compromise when coming together to play with others. Because sometimes there's a greater joy in engaging with others and playing and sharing the enjoyment of the hobby than being totally steadfast to your own standards alone.

Arcanis161 wrote:
This is not going to devolve into a flame war at all.

My thoughts exactly.

 Overread wrote:
Do your hobby the way you want to do it. Its your free time to enjoy


Let others do their hobby the way they want to do it. It's their free time to enjoy.


Respect the rules and standards of your local club/group/gathering/tournament site. It's the groups free time to enjoy as a community, not just as individuals.


Compromise when coming together to play with others. Because sometimes there's a greater joy in engaging with others and playing and sharing the enjoyment of the hobby than being totally steadfast to your own standards alone.

Probably a good thing for all of us to do. Myself included.

Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 786392 wrote:


umm, is someone holding a gun to your head??? No one can force you to play the game(unless it's Deer Hunter russian roulette), irrespective of how they may make you feel.

Go in to the store. Say you want to play, put out your army out. Get told that, this store plays only X or plays only without X. Now you just have been forced to play in a specific way, without the use of guns or magic.

Even in the above scenario, you still aren't forced to play in a specific way. You can just say you don't want to play in that way, pick up your models, and leave. Or you can talk to your opponent about changing things up. If you decide to remain, it's because you made the choice to accept that way of play.

 flandarz wrote:

Karol wrote:

Racerguy180 786392 wrote:


umm, is someone holding a gun to your head??? No one can force you to play the game(unless it's Deer Hunter russian roulette), irrespective of how they may make you feel.

Go in to the store. Say you want to play, put out your army out. Get told that, this store plays only X or plays only without X. Now you just have been forced to play in a specific way, without the use of guns or magic.

Even in the above scenario, you still aren't forced to play in a specific way. You can just say you don't want to play in that way, pick up your models, and leave. Or you can talk to your opponent about changing things up. If you decide to remain, it's because you made the choice to accept that way of play.

Its not forced but lack of viable alternatives limits what you can do. It basically comes down to playing the community rule set or go home which isn't much of a choice if you don't like the community rule set.

That's a fair statement, and I've mentioned before that people who say "if you don't like 40k, play something different" are ignoring the fact that 40k is practically a monopoly. But you can still talk to your opponent about using the rules you prefer, and unless it's outrageous, I highly doubt they'll say no every time. But you'd also have to compromise and play their ruleset too. Part of the social contract and all that. And if they ARE being unreasonable, then you still aren't forced to play a game you don't enjoy, because you can still choose to pack it up. At the end of the day, if you aren't having fun, then what's the point?

 flandarz wrote:
At the end of the day, if you aren't having fun, then what's the point?

Exactly.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
At the end of the day, if you aren't having fun, then what's the point?

Exactly.

That leads to a "I had my fun and thats all that matters" mindset though. Which is absolutly not the spirit of a hobby. I might start putting this in my signature but the point of the game is for TWO people to have fun WITH each other.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
At the end of the day, if you aren't having fun, then what's the point?

Exactly.

That leads to a "I had my fun and thats all that matters" mindset though. Which is absolutly not the spirit of a hobby. I might start putting this in my signature but the point of the game is for TWO people to have fun WITH each other.

What about if we like threesomes, foursomes and -- ok I'll stop and get my coat....





As I summarised above; the key is that we each have our own standards and our own fun to consider. Alongside that there's also our opponent(s) and the group/club/gathering we are apart of. Each stage might require a level of compromising to achieve the end result. That might mean that you love playing with painted models; but that the weeks campaign pits you against the player who doesn't paint - so you might compromise on part of your fun in order for the game to continue and the campaign to remain functional. Another time you might refuse because there's someone else you can play and they paint their models and its not part of a structured series of games e tc.... Basically there's no hard and fast rules - even someone who is a die hard "painted only" might compromise for the newbie or the guy with muscle spasms who can't paint etc... There's always scope to find the fun in the game without being selfish or isolationist.

Please don't take my comment about having fun being the point of a game to mean I'm saying you're allowed to make other people miserable as long as you're having fun.

Sim-Life wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
At the end of the day, if you aren't having fun, then what's the point?

Exactly.

That leads to a "I had my fun and thats all that matters" mindset though. Which is absolutly not the spirit of a hobby.

Eh, I'd say the spirit of a hobby *is* do what you find fun. That doesn't give carte blanche to enforce that on anyone else though, which is the important part.

Prioritise yourself, but not to the extent that you're negatively affecting others.

I might start putting this in my signature but the point of the game is for TWO people to have fun WITH each other.

If those two people won't be compatible, then those two people shouldn't play eachother - that's my point. Walking away and playing anyone else, or just not playing, are equally valid as compromising on your own enjoyment. There's nothing wrong or shameful about saying "very sorry, but I don't think I'd enjoy playing with you, because we're after different experiences". Be polite in all respects, but don't feel that you're being forced into something.

flandarz wrote:Please don't take my comment about having fun being the point of a game to mean I'm saying you're allowed to make other people miserable as long as you're having fun.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that's not what you were saying. There's no point playing if you don't enjoy it, and it's not selfish to want to spend your hobby time your way. It doesn't excuse anyone forcing that one anyone else though - ie, while I encourage people to play how they like, they need to respect other people might want to play differently. Either compromise, or play elsewhere - and both options are fine! You're not a bad person for setting your own limits.