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ccs wrote:
But if he's still too slow does it really matter if he's too durable for his points?

Taken to extremes points solve everything.
If Ghaz was 100 points firstly you would have another 185 points of stuff - but you would also have a model which is very inefficient to deal with, as you are only taking off 100 points if you successfully do so.
At the same time Ghaz would only need to get a charge into just about anything but 4-7 point chaff to make a 100 point size dent in your opponents list. With potentially massive upside if you get him into a knight, or a blob of Centurions or whatever.

Right now because he's so expensive your opponent is rewarded for dealing with him properly - and its hard for him to have the necessary impact on the table because he has to connect with a relatively small pool of targets with no movement bonuses.

On the thread in general - really not finding this appeal to authority very compelling. Great players are great players - watching high level LVO games is great for dismissing silly claims that there is no skill in 40k.
But there have been various predictions about Orks and most of them didn't come true. They were meant to dominate the meta with their codex release, and they didn't. I don't know if this is due to "thinking like a Space Marine/Eldar/Tau player" - but frankly I think a lot of people forget just how easily Orks can disappear if you bring the right weapons. Its just a lot of lists - with eye to say Eldar Flyers, or then Space Marines with all the high save/multi wound models, didn't. In a tournament where you need to go 6-0 to win odds are however you will run into someone who does.

Orks are unlikely to ever became dominant, without major point/rule changes, because you could build against them incredibly easily. And so it will be with Ghaz.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Or, perhaps there's another reason his name might be familiar. Can't possibly think what that might be though.

$97 a month?! The hubris you need to charge that kind of money for access to knowledge that is so ridiculously temporal, because of the constant releases and FAQs... Good grief.

Holy gak that's price gouging if I've ever seen it, especially for some poor new kid wanting to learn. feth this guy in particular.

Pay hundred bucks to make someone tell you what units you like you shouldn't buy.

Ah, greed takes fun out of everything.

I mean, I understand the dude has a team and they all need to get paid for their work, but I kinda feel like nearly a hundred bucks a month (or 800 of you do a yearly thing) is a lot for advice. I can get advice here for free. At the very least, give the folks a once monthly game (on TTS) to get a feel for what they're running and so you can give them play-by-play pointers.

I wonder what they mean by "Access to models at a huge discount".

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

You are no more credible because you found a single article from a single (ex)competitive Ork player saying that Ghaz MAYBE has potential. That is almost as vague as my horoscope for today ('someone at work might like you', if you're interested).

You LITERALLY called me out for saying that the best Ork player I know feels this way, and called it a completely non-credible statement. So, now that 2019's #1 Ork player ITC and the person who has seen the most success with this dex by a MASSIVE margin released the article, I mention this was who I was referring to, and you act like this was a completely unreasonable statement. Let's be real - there is no answer that would have satisfied you here.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You've been told this repeatedly so I doubt it's going to sink in this time but let's give it one more go; Ghaz is garbage in the context of the Ork army because there is nothing he can do that a Warboss on Bike can't do for better and cheaper, excluding his 4 wounds a phase gimmick (and it is a gimmick). I can't say it any more succinctly or clearer than that. If you have units A and B and unit A can do everything unit B can but for half the price, why are you ever taking unit B, regardless of how good it is compared to other units from other codexes? Ghaz is unit B.

Oh the irony. Considering I said, and I quote, "I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss.", perhaps its you who should take a step back and try to let someone else's opinion sink in, considering this entire rant was literally already acknowledged in my opening statement on the unit. I think the Warboss is better. I don't think Ghaz is some amazing unit. What are you actually arguing about here?

You are way too aggressively overconfident and certain in your conviction that what you say just HAS to be said, for someone who doesn't really have an argument against me here other than "REEEEEE he mentioned that someone else said my Orks aren't trash!". Take a step back and look at what you're actually arguing at this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
as for Ghaz, if the only thing stopping him from being good is his points that's... long term not too big, they can always reduce him points, IMHO if he was dropped to 200-250 points he'd be a MUCH better take

What he needs is the ability to advance and charge. Without that he is too slow to do anything until the point costs drop to a point where he is too durable for what you pay.

Are you just going to ignore my last post? I know you saw it, you've responded to every other post I've made in this thread even though none were directed at you. So this one spoken right to you - again, because I'm genuinely curious - name me one person I called casual who has a better tournament placings with Orks than Nick, as you've claimed.

Or did you just think it would sound good to say that and that nobody would check you on that?

'Stop ignoring my posts, I KNOW you saw it.' and you claim I need to take a step back?

Answer the rest of my post that you completely ignored if you want the same consideration back. How many points should he cost?

You post an article by Pampreen like it utterly confirms your point of view, that seems to flitter between 'Ghaz is 'contested by a generic warboss' (which, as I have shown above, means he is useless) and 'he is just a teeny, tiny, little bit too expensive'. These two viewpoints of yours don't really coexist. Decide which you feel. Or don't. Your opinion is of very little value because you have virtually no idea what you're talking about and you seem content to hide behind the opinions of others. Do you play Orks? Have you ever?

I wouldn’t pay for it, but I know someone who did and was more than happy with the quality of the service. It’s not just access to premium articles, it’s hours of one on one time every week, personalised list advice and in depth breakdowns, games against himself and other top tournament players, his mobile phone number for any time you have the random competitive question for Nick he can immediately answer you, etc. And then of course, all the premium articles he spends tons of his time writing each week, and if you’ve ever seen a Nick N premo article, you know he puts a ton of time into these things gathering up statistics drawing up graphs and playtesting the topic. And also a bunch of giveaways and prizes and gak too, and access to a very competitive community of people trying to improve their game as opposed to the average poster you see on a page like this.

I believe it actually started out a lot cheaper for just site access, but people wanted more and more out of him and wanted to pay more for it, so the product started to match the demand. How much would you charge for hours of your time, every single week? Because $100 a month is still like only around $20 a week for that, and that’s not including all the time spent on the premium content he makes for them too.

I think you guys are mistaking a service that you have no interest in, for a service of bad quality. This isn’t entry level noob rules explanations. You are literally getting one on one advice with probably the most accomplished and definitely one of the highest skilled players to touch this game, it’s the equivalent of going to Lebron for basketball lessons. I understand the majority of this site has very little REAL competitive aspirations, but I’ve heard nothing but good feedback about Nick’s service. I’ve only ever subbed to his podcast, and that’s possibly the best value for money that a person could get if they wanted a high level content in that media. There’s paintwork artists out there on patreon charging $30 monthly for clips of models they were gonna paint anyway, with about 20 sentences of voice overs spaced through cut and sped up clip. Does it interest me? No. Does that mean it’s bad value? Also no, but it’s a crapton less work and people encourage supporting that.... the competitive scene may not be your interest but don’t gak on someone for selling their hard work.

It actually is bad value as a lot of the exact advice is offered for free

Tyel wrote:

ccs wrote:
But if he's still too slow does it really matter if he's too durable for his points?

Taken to extremes points solve everything.
If Ghaz was 100 points firstly you would have another 185 points of stuff - but you would also have a model which is very inefficient to deal with, as you are only taking off 100 points if you successfully do so.
At the same time Ghaz would only need to get a charge into just about anything but 4-7 point chaff to make a 100 point size dent in your opponents list. With potentially massive upside if you get him into a knight, or a blob of Centurions or whatever.

Right now because he's so expensive your opponent is rewarded for dealing with him properly - and its hard for him to have the necessary impact on the table because he has to connect with a relatively small pool of targets with no movement bonuses.

Well that's one way to look at it.
Me? If he were 100 pts (& no other changes) & my opponent brought him?
1) I'd think "Good, my opponents already down 100 pts!" I mean, he could've brought 285 pts worth of other stuff. But instead opted for only 185 pts worth.
2) I'll deal with this slow moving thing the same way whatever his pts cost (unless he's stupid expensive & victory actually hinges on the pts value of stuff I kill. Then....). I.E.; I'll just move out of it's way. What's it going to do? Catch me? And it sure as hell isn't going to catch anything of mine that'll be worth a fart pts wise. Meanwhile I'll still take potshots at it as the opportunities present.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
'Stop ignoring my posts, I KNOW you saw it.' and you claim I need to take a step back?

Ironically, I did respond to him twice, it's just that both my posts got delete by mods. *shrugs*

Yeah, Jidmah did respond the second time and I saw the post before it was deleted. Not sure why his post was deleted, but let's just say that I'm still waiting to hear who are the players that I said were "casual" in this thread who actually have more top placings at GT's than Nick Nanavati are. I think we all know that was a statement that was never gonna be supported though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You post an article by Pampreen like it utterly confirms your point of view

No no, no we didn't do that. In fact, I believe my exact words were that "putting something in article does not make it indisputable fact, and you are always open to disagree". Try to keep up.

I posted the article as confirmation that when I cited the opinions of one of the best Ork players in the world, that I was in fact, citing the opinions of the best Ork player in the world, a point that was only in dispute because of you. That doesn't mean you can't disagree with said opinions. But it does mean that you can hold the L on the whole snide "my uncle works for nintendo too!" nonsense.



I don't know if it's selective memory or if you're this actually awful at keeping up with your own arguments, but I'll direct your attention to the part where you directly asked me to source who I was talking about with those claims and tried to blow me up for it:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ah yes, I know someone who works at Nintendo and also happens to be the best Ork player ever too! Who is this mysterious Ork player you mention? Care to drop any names because otherwise your statement has 0 credibility.

It was right before the part where you linked my friend's website for "proof" from "real competitive players" for why I'm wrong, if you need a reminder
But keep the laughs coming please, you're always very entertaining with how irrational you get concerning this sort of thing.

 flandarz wrote:
I mean, I understand the dude has a team and they all need to get paid for their work, but I kinda feel like nearly a hundred bucks a month (or 800 of you do a yearly thing) is a lot for advice. I can get advice here for free. At the very least, give the folks a once monthly game (on TTS) to get a feel for what they're running and so you can give them play-by-play pointers.

Yeah wow. Who pays for that? The website itself looks so... like a scam. Ick.

And about Ghaz, wouldnt it be better to just buy the box and try it out? Cost about 1 month... if not good then get experience plus models = winning!

But this is free advice. Maybe i should charge for that? ¿

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yeah, Jidmah did respond the second time and I saw the post before it was deleted. Not sure why his post was deleted, but let's just say that I'm still waiting to hear who are the players that I said were "casual" in this thread who actually have more top placings at GT's than Nick Nanavati are. I think we all know that was a statement that was never gonna be supported though.

1) If you have read it, you can find that answer yourself.
2) The mods explicitly told us to drop the issue.

 jeff white wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I mean, I understand the dude has a team and they all need to get paid for their work, but I kinda feel like nearly a hundred bucks a month (or 800 of you do a yearly thing) is a lot for advice. I can get advice here for free. At the very least, give the folks a once monthly game (on TTS) to get a feel for what they're running and so you can give them play-by-play pointers.

Yeah wow. Who pays for that? The website itself looks so... like a scam. Ick.

And about Ghaz, wouldnt it be better to just buy the box and try it out? Cost about 1 month... if not good then get experience plus models = winning!

But this is free advice. Maybe i should charge for that? ¿

I have 3 bottlecaps and a CHF, is this enough or should i bleach my brain?


Jokes aside.

at an 1/8th+ off a 2000 pts army with his only gimick in his favour beeing a 4dmg / phase then yeah i just don't see him even as a annoyment to deal with unit niche.

 jeff white wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I mean, I understand the dude has a team and they all need to get paid for their work, but I kinda feel like nearly a hundred bucks a month (or 800 of you do a yearly thing) is a lot for advice. I can get advice here for free. At the very least, give the folks a once monthly game (on TTS) to get a feel for what they're running and so you can give them play-by-play pointers.

Yeah wow. Who pays for that? The website itself looks so... like a scam. Ick.

And about Ghaz, wouldnt it be better to just buy the box and try it out? Cost about 1 month... if not good then get experience plus models = winning!

But this is free advice. Maybe i should charge for that? ¿

Do you know these fortune cookies that say "if you think a cookie can tell the future, rethink your life"? Maybe his page is just like that

 Jidmah wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Yeah, Jidmah did respond the second time and I saw the post before it was deleted. Not sure why his post was deleted, but let's just say that I'm still waiting to hear who are the players that I said were "casual" in this thread who actually have more top placings at GT's than Nick Nanavati are. I think we all know that was a statement that was never gonna be supported though.

1) If you have read it, you can find that answer yourself.
2) The mods explicitly told us to drop the issue.

1) you made the claim that some of the casual players in this very thread have a better GT track record than Nick Nanavati with Orks. That turned out to be a lie however, as when questioned on it, your response was "read through a 300 page thread about Orks and cross reference it with 50 reddit threads each averaging 150 posts if you want to find out if I'm telling the truth", making it unmistakably clear that you were of course, making it up.
2) the mods have said absolutely nothing to me, unsure what they said to you. In fact in your last post implied you had no idea why they were removed. What did the mods explicitly tell you?

Dude, Nick had a single top 4 placement with orks, in 4th place at adepticon. With a list that goes against the very advise he has given in his videos and his blog posts.
How hard do you think it is to beat that?

Removed - BrookM

So we are now trying to bash people offering a paid service. No one here has to pay for anything if they think they know everything already.

 Elfric wrote:
So we are now trying to bash people offering a paid service. No one here has to pay for anything if they think they know everything already.

I think people are bashing the price of said service though personally I don't see why anyone would pay to have one of the most fun aspects of the hobby given to someone else.

If people want to pay they will, if they don't they won't and he'll have to drop his price accordingly.

It's a game of toy soldiers, guys. Breathe.