Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Polonius wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.

Every six months or so I make a shopping list of models to build the battle of pellanor fields in 10mm. so you are very definitely not the only one!

Small scale regiments just make too much sense.

Small scales make sense for abstract mass combat systems

There's already quite a few people doing KoW in 10mm, Luke Fellows started a Facebook Group for it following his "Make Warhammer Tiny" video. Copplestone and Pendraken both make 10mm fantasy ranges, and there's a lot of STL files out there for people to 3D print like Forest Dragon

Making it an official KoW scale would be cool, but too problematic. KoW is Mantic's flagship product, already has their largest minis range and playerbase. Wouldn't make much sense to drop all that for a new scale when people already have full size 28mm KoW armies. That would be real Rackham levels of "spite your current customers to try and build new ones"

For Warpath, the smaller scale for the larger games makes sense as there's far less people playing full size Warpath, especially after Firefight became moderately successful

Having 1 game with 2 models is not a good idea
See Black Powder for having both 28mm and 15mm models for the same game

Yet small scale KoW would work to get the models out with a dedicated rules system that takes advantage of it.
Like taking KoW, mix it with Warmaster, do a 10mm models and mix some Titans in that would be too much for Kings

 Polonius wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.

Every six months or so I make a shopping list of models to build the battle of pellanor fields in 10mm. so you are very definitely not the only one!

Small scale regiments just make too much sense.

Small scale regiments do indeed make sense, and KoW plays very well at Epic scale - even if you've made the minis yourself ;-)

https://skinflintgames.wordpress.com/2021/06/13/the-tiniest-kings-of-war-pt-3-to-battle/

The more I think about it the more I come to realise KoW should be a 10mm game. A lot of my criticism of the rule set would disappear if it were in that scale.

Luckily, we have a lot of great 10mm models available, so even of Mantic don't eventually do 10mm models, we can play it at the correct scale.

 Kalamadea wrote:
There's already quite a few people doing KoW in 10mm, Luke Fellows started a Facebook Group for it following his "Make Warhammer Tiny" video. Copplestone and Pendraken both make 10mm fantasy ranges, and there's a lot of STL files out there for people to 3D print like Forest Dragon

Making it an official KoW scale would be cool, but too problematic. KoW is Mantic's flagship product, already has their largest minis range and playerbase. Wouldn't make much sense to drop all that for a new scale when people already have full size 28mm KoW armies. That would be real Rackham levels of "spite your current customers to try and build new ones"

For Warpath, the smaller scale for the larger games makes sense as there's far less people playing full size Warpath, especially after Firefight became moderately successful

I'm not saying abandon the 28mm game. I'm saying do both with things in the small version you can't do in the big version. KoW is a good ruleset but it's hard enough to convince people to play IT let alone say "Hey, you know that fantasy game in 28mm like WFB? What if we played it at 10mm with random models not made by that company?". Official support would enable a community of growth. Not to mention that it's one of the few open spaces left at the moment. KoW failed to take advantage of WFB death like it should have. I'd like to see them set themselves as at least the mainstay of some part of the TTG industry.

What I will say is that I realistically would never touch KOW in its current 28mm scale.

At 10mm scale, sign me the feth up.

Same with Black Powder - would not and did not touch it in 28mm scale, but I'm a couple thousand invested in the three eras they've released so far in epic scale.

 Hulksmash wrote:

I'm not saying abandon the 28mm game. I'm saying do both with things in the small version you can't do in the big version.

You mean like GW did with Warhammer Battle and Warmaster when they coexisted in retail stores ? It didn't end good.

Yeah, KoW works perfectly fine with another scale for miniatures, but I'm not sure it would bring them that much more sales if they actually did it. Competition is already there for that scale, and with damn pretty good sculptors too (especially in the 3D printing world) - with prices Mantic Games can never really hope to reasonnably follow for a profit.

Like it or not, 28mm scale also helps to sell the miniature for a high price enough to keep the company floating. 10mm...it's absolutely not the same mindset. Talking about development, hiring sculptors who know their stuff at this scale (it's not just a matter of simply scaling down, at this scale a lot of things matter to make the miniature sturdy enough) and supporting the range...it's not free as well.

Maybe on their 3D file store.

I mean, I've been around since those days. But one thing that Warmaster didn't do very well was make the game about bigger stuff than you could really do on the tabletop. It was a product of the times but they weren't out there focussing on dragon/monster riders, huge regiments of large creaters, solo huge monsters, etc.

The way it stands Mantic is unlikely to see money from me outside of filling a niche that isn't already filled by another company. Mantic is big enough that you can sell it to a group. But not big enough that if GW has a comparative game that GW won't win out for people to play that game.

I want to be able to get games in and so do people that I try and bring in. 28mm Mass Fantasy Battle is.....meh. It's a lot of models to paint for markers.

Sarouan wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

I'm not saying abandon the 28mm game. I'm saying do both with things in the small version you can't do in the big version.

You mean like GW did with Warhammer Battle and Warmaster when they coexisted in retail stores ? It didn't end good.

Warmaster failed for a number of reasons, cost, and exposure.

It was an all metal game, that required sizeable collections to play. Meanwhile WFB had a good selection of plastic kits. This hobbled the reach of the game, every other GW specialist game has had plastic kits (Necromunder, Battle Fleet Gothic, etc).

It had very little White Dwarf coverage, so didn't drum up interest.

Fast forward to the age of 3D printers and Social Media, and Warmaster is very much alive and more healthier than it has ever been.

Is it really fair to say warmaster failed when it had multiple editions and iterations and derivative rulesets continue to be popular among certain segments of the community?

same as any other good system from GW, successful rules are a failure as GW is a model company
that almost all command&control wargames out there are based on Warmaster is just a proof that it failed to sell models as otherwise it would still be protected by GW
Good for the Community = Failure for GW (and success for GW = bad for community)

Which brings me back to Warpath, Mantic should look closer to other games for ideas that are not based on Warmaster or Epic to make something new
They can only compete on the rules site and if GW just brings back the original, no matter how bad it is, it will be played and if Warpath is too similar they cannot really expand on it


that said, with the current niche market, you need plastic models not matter what.
everyone can do 10mm in Resin and there are enough old Warhammer and 40k files around, 10mm Metal is also available for all kind of settings as well
the one thing missing is plastic, hence why there is a hype for LI as people expect cheap plastic to make it less of a niche
Yet with GW it will be cheaper to buy a resin printer and all the equipment needed rather than an LI army in plastic

And neither KoW nor WP are strong enough in design to compete with the 1:1 copies of GW models on the 10mm STL market.
Not that the unique armies look different and good enough, but why buying Northern Alliance or Plague when you can have Chaos Warriors or GSC for free.

Having Warpath a digital only release will work, but to be successful it needs plastic models, and the same for 10mm Kings of War (with a dedicated rule book that adds some command&control elements, or alternating phases together with larger armies)

 Hulksmash wrote:
28mm Mass Fantasy Battle is.....meh. It's a lot of models to paint for markers.

and in 15mm it is even more models to paint

that a 10mm line works next to the 28mm line is only there if there are the necessary rules to support it.
Warlord Games Epic scale works because there are other historical rules you can use the models for, because the only change from Black Powder is that there are more models to paint
which is a reason why people not only use smaller models but also reduce the unit footprint (that is why you see so many people cutting the WG 12mm stripes in halve, so you can actually play small scale games)

 kodos wrote:

Which brings me back to Warpath, Mantic should look closer to other games for ideas that are not based on Warmaster or Epic to make something new
They can only compete on the rules site and if GW just brings back the original, no matter how bad it is, it will be played and if Warpath is too similar they cannot really expand on it

Making something "new" isn't necessarily a good thing. It's easier to work on an existing base (as well as balancing it) than going on a wildly unknown territory with too much novelty.

Besides, Mantic Games profits from selling miniatures first. Not rules. Rules are just a way to use their miniatures, that's all. And that's how all miniature centered game companies work, like it or not.

Having a game is the best way to use them, but in the end, Mantic Games (like GW) doesn't really care what you do with them as long as you keep buying something from them. It's just that they're happier if people buy exclusively all their stuff at their stores, but that really depends on what they offer.

That's why looking at this from solely a "rule competition" is the wrong way to view it, IMHO. It's not about that at all. It's about making something appealing to their players...and it's easy to gather around something they already know rather than something a bit too "alien" from their perspective.

(And since MG has such a reputation of "having good games"...do they really want to mess it up by being too novel with the game system if it turns out the "holy balance" is disastrous or the game turns out to be "too complicated / not fun" ?)

that said, with the current niche market, you need plastic models not matter what.

Total disagree. Depends of a lot of factors here...and if Epic communities managed to flourish with 3D printing or metal miniatures, it's not a hazard. It would have died a long time ago if all other companies were solely focused on plastic : they know they don't have the same funds than GW here.

that is the point, Epic community flourish because they can get the 40k models in 10mm from 3d prints
there is no reason to buy a STL for Enforcer to use as Space Marines, or Asterian to use as Eldar when you can get the original
the only useful ones are GCPS as they can get away as any Imperial Guard Regiment

the only reason to buy count as is that you get a better material or a cheaper price and Mantic selling STLs will never be cheaper than 10mm 40k files
which leaves plastic models is the only way for that niche

for their own game, it does make a difference as well
just taking a look what a difference small scale plastic makes for historical game

Making something "new" isn't necessarily a good thing. It's easier to work on an existing base (as well as balancing it) than going on a wildly unknown territory with too much novelty.

to unknown base for wargames is simply what people playing GW games don't have encountered yet as there is not really anything new by now any more

it is just the question of taking inspiration by a GW game or not
and doing a game that pleases those groups already failed with the last edition of Warpath, and if it is too similar to Epic people will play the GW version even if it worse simply because it is the official one
while those that want something different won't find it in Warpath

Since they've said it's 12mm it's obviously not aimed at being Epic proxies.

As previously established, they need great models, great rules and novelty to have even a chance of surviving in the shadow of GW even if GW sold literal boxes of feces.

That's an interesting point that was just semi-indirectly made. Despite all the hubbaloo about how 3d printing would kill GW, it hasn't. Instead the only businesses harmed seem to be those who existed to provide alternative minis to GWs own. The people opting for 3d prints are those that searched high and low for lower cost or more customizable versions of GWs minis. Overwhelmingly the mainstream market prefers "official" minis and prefers to pay for the real mccoy.

chaos0xomega wrote:
That's an interesting point that was just semi-indirectly made. Despite all the hubbaloo about how 3d printing would kill GW, it hasn't. Instead the only businesses harmed seem to be those who existed to provide alternative minis to GWs own. The people opting for 3d prints are those that searched high and low for lower cost or more customizable versions of GWs minis. Overwhelmingly the mainstream market prefers "official" minis and prefers to pay for the real mccoy.

3D production has been a double edged sword for GW, 3D production has made it so much easier to create product. When they released the Falcon there was a whole article about how difficult the process was, now its pretty simple. As for 3d printing....its come so far you would never even know that a miniature is 3D printed especially once its painted. I bought Leviathan just to make sure my scale is correct, but most of my stuff you would never know is 3D printed....except the stuff that is alternative and actually looks better than GW stuff. My "Arcadian Elves" from Hero's Infinite for the most part look better than the 30 year old GW finecast Eldar....its sad.

I would say 3D printing has a long way to go as far as ease of use, its kind of its own hobby in a way...but eventually it will be push button easy. Thats when GW will really have to worry.

problem is, people 3D print GW proxies because it is the cheapest way to play GW games

so it does not hurt GW at all but they profit from it as it increases the player base and those who are willing to spend money on plastic do it for those games with the largest player base
(same as GW profits from pirated rules)

by now GW games have reached the status of "free to play" MMO with a critical mass that makes it impossible for other games to succeed.
A lot of people don't pay anything, or a minimum to play, they 3D print the armies and pirate the rules
this adds the mass of players so the argument to "which game to play" is the GW ones as there is always someone who plays is while it is hard to find people playing something else

so people will play whatever version of Epic GW will release, spending a 600-1000 on a plastic army (and it looks the way that this will be the price for a 3k army), simply because there are already a lot of people playing it and they don't know that those are doing it for cheap with 3D prints
while Warpath is a new game, no one plays and there must be a reason for it, so models are bad and the rules don't have depth/complexity (the 2 arguments on why GW is better, used for everything without ever looking it the competition)

so as long as people play GW games, the only way to sell models is to make them a useful alternative to GW models
which is either making carbon copies, better looking original designs, or being cheaper plastic

 kodos wrote:

while Warpath is a new game, no one plays and there must be a reason for it, so models are bad and the rules don't have depth/complexity (the 2 arguments on why GW is better, used for everything without ever looking it the competition)

Models and rules may be valid reasons for people not to play. But I think "time" is also a big one, that is often forgotten by us fan players.

It takes time to build models, paint them and play a game. The first 2 are part of the Hobby, and it can be a pleasure in itself, but there's also the time needed to play a game. Complex / deep rules have a vicious setback, in that they ask more time. It often makes the game last longer than it should (looking for the rule, rolling a ridiculous amount of dice several times for just knowing if there's a casualty, and so on).

In our modern days, with our busy lives, time is a precious ressource. Free time to play is the key problem here.

The thing is, asking for people to play several game systems (with their separate own miniatures to build and paint) is an impossible task for most people who have a job and a family. Those who have all the time in the world aren't that many - especially those who don't have much money and can be interested in "low cost" miniature games like Mantic. If they play already one, why would they risk the little time / money they have in another they'll barely be able to follow anyway ? So they make choices.

I believe the miniature market is suffering a similar problem from the video game one : they produce too many games asking for too much time that no average human has enough in a day to fulfill. Choices must be made, and because of that, they are winners and losers. Why GW is on top with their core games ? Because they're the most reliable ones...no one wants to invest time and money in a game that may disappear next year for the reason of being "not profitable enough".

The solution may be to make a game that doesn't ask for too much time to play : simple rules, simple models (small scale miniature tend to be easier to paint with simple techniques because details are less important in their case)...and maybe the dreaded "prepainted models" (but that raises another cost / price issue, as many actors who did that know).

Hi everyone,

I can't put up a post with pics right now because I'm pressed for time, but having had more time to look it over, I wanted to revise my original gushing review of the Archon-produced hard plastic Nightstalker Ambush pack.

I continue to unreservedly recommend the Reaper sprue. That sprue is the closest I've ever seen anyone come to Renedra / GW quality in terms of crisp detail in hard plastic. However, I do not recommend using GW's melt-it-together plastic glue on it. I tried it, and it really didn't take. I ended up using standard superglue. Still, this is a great kit.

The sprue of larger Ogre-sized figures, the Butchers / Ravagers, isn't as perfect. Casting quality is generally good, but there are some thin fissures running across the larger figures that look like they're manufacturing errors rather than intended by design. The fissures are only cosmetic imperfections, and aren't large enough to cause any structural issues. You could putty them over, or if you're not picky like me, they may be thin and small enough that they don't bother you. After the perfection of the Reapers, I find the Butchers / Ravagers disappointing, as the fissures seem to indicate that Archon doesn't have its casting game down as well or as consistently as I'd hoped.

I will update you later with photos to illustrate better what I'm talking about, but it may be awhile. I just wanted to make sure people influenced by my earlier review had the most accurate info possible in the meantime.

GW plastic glue is not the best tbh. Wouldn't blame the kit for that necessarily.

Billicus wrote:
GW plastic glue is not the best tbh. Wouldn't blame the kit for that necessarily.

It's not a question of blame, just providing info. GW plastic glue doesn't work well on the Mantic Archon kits. Whether that's a big negative or not is up to you. (I myself can live with it just fine.)

I use Revell and never had a problem, put together many kilos of Archon kits.

The cracks in the plastic are more worrying, sounds like when there's a little too little material, or perhaps not hot enough, and plastic coming in through two ports doesn't fully meld together where it meets. I think I last saw this in a GW kit 20+ years ago.

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:

while Warpath is a new game, no one plays and there must be a reason for it, so models are bad and the rules don't have depth/complexity (the 2 arguments on why GW is better, used for everything without ever looking it the competition)

Models and rules may be valid reasons for people not to play. But I think "time" is also a big one, that is often forgotten by us fan players.

It takes time to build models, paint them and play a game. The first 2 are part of the Hobby, and it can be a pleasure in itself, but there's also the time needed to play a game. Complex / deep rules have a vicious setback, in that they ask more time. It often makes the game last longer than it should (looking for the rule, rolling a ridiculous amount of dice several times for just knowing if there's a casualty, and so on).

In our modern days, with our busy lives, time is a precious ressource. Free time to play is the key problem here.

The thing is, asking for people to play several game systems (with their separate own miniatures to build and paint) is an impossible task for most people who have a job and a family. Those who have all the time in the world aren't that many - especially those who don't have much money and can be interested in "low cost" miniature games like Mantic. If they play already one, why would they risk the little time / money they have in another they'll barely be able to follow anyway ? So they make choices.

I believe the miniature market is suffering a similar problem from the video game one : they produce too many games asking for too much time that no average human has enough in a day to fulfill. Choices must be made, and because of that, they are winners and losers. Why GW is on top with their core games ? Because they're the most reliable ones...no one wants to invest time and money in a game that may disappear next year for the reason of being "not profitable enough".

The solution may be to make a game that doesn't ask for too much time to play : simple rules, simple models (small scale miniature tend to be easier to paint with simple techniques because details are less important in their case)...and maybe the dreaded "prepainted models" (but that raises another cost / price issue, as many actors who did that know).

It does suck when a game you invest in dies. I still use a bunch of Mutant Chronicles Warzone miniatures as imperial guard. GW isn't really immune to that though, The GW graveyard is pretty large.

Is there a summary for the video for the work-blocked?

Matt talking about he general ideas behind and why they do it
also there are already much more responses than expected and it is very close between full plastic and full digital which let them consider both

Matt also mentions why they struggle with Rebs currently because staying true to the background makes it hard for a plastic release and not easy to port them from Deadzone to Firefight
He also mentions that there will be 1-2 new factions next year

Says they could put 1 each of about 8 different things on a sprue and just spam that sprue and you'd have the core army. Then probably STL for specialists. Sure is gonna be more friendly to the wallet that GW's 4 tanks per box.

well, no matter what they do it will be more friendly to the wallet than GW

my personal guess is that the Tank Upgrades on the Vault are a test for STL release before retail release and depending on how this works out and/or how many vendor license they sell going with a STL heavy faction with 1-2 plastic frames will be an option

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Says they could put 1 each of about 8 different things on a sprue and just spam that sprue and you'd have the core army. Then probably STL for specialists. Sure is gonna be more friendly to the wallet that GW's 4 tanks per box.

They could talk about infantry and not tanks, you know. Wait for the final sprues and prices before saying that. It's generally better on long term.

Of course, if they do STL files, it doesn't matter at all what they intend to put on a sprue. Just sell the individual files. And that is the cheapest way to build a big scale army. Also more eco-friendly than mass production plastic.