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That sounds really interesting, thanks for posting your conclusions Kodos.

It sounds closer to a quick/clean ruleset of SM 2nd, rather than the heavier/more detailed approach that LI looks to be aiming for. If that's the case, that's a positive as I think there is space for both types of games in the market.

If they do some nice plastic sprues for this I would definitely invest - both for the new Mantic game, and perhaps double-use the miniatures for an antagonist faction (random Alien type x) in some Great Crusade-era Epic games.


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Edit - I've voted for the full plastic release and support (hopefully if it is backed by a KS, it won't represent a big risk for Mantic, as they would only go ahead with the plastic sprues if the KS accrued enough funds).

Rule look slick but maybe a bit soulless, and the army lists do not inspire me at all. Maybe this will change when I see models.

As someone with no skin/baggage/purchases in the game, I feel like this is something they should have done from the beginning instead of three related rulesets/model count games with the same figures.

 warboss wrote:
As someone with no skin/baggage/purchases in the game, I feel like this is something they should have done from the beginning instead of three related rulesets/model count games with the same figures.

I mean, doesn't seem to have harmed GW much at all taking that approach.

Doing the same scale/models was a less risky approach also because they would still sell to 40k players

Ronni also said a while ago that chasing GW was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years.
Looks like they now tried to fill the gaps GW is not covering, hence Armada exists and 10mm Warpath was planned (while still trying to keep existing customers happy with 28mm games)

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Rule look slick but maybe a bit soulless, and the army lists do not inspire me at all. Maybe this will change when I see models.

arny lists are not existent for now but like examples or early play test version, as the Enforcer don't have a command and Plague no big support unit, do I guess/hope we see more there in future (though lage Enforcer tanks are a nice start)

 kodos wrote:

Ronni also said a while ago that chasing GW was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years.

Ronnie may believe that, but is it true? I'm glad they are trying to chart their own path now, but world the company exist of not for those early year's of targeting GW players with alternate figures and rules (WHFB)?

100%. In the early days, there was barely a WHFB army that you saw that didn't have Mantic used to help fill the armies (zombies and skeletons especially).

But that was then and this is now. I like that they're trying to do their own thing, and they have a different rules design philosophy to GW. I think it's nice, there should be room in the marketplace for differing types of game and experience, and consumers have the luxury of choosing between them.

I suspect the "beta" rules release by Mantic is as much self preservation as anything else. By releasing before GW, they can't be seen as being derivative of it and getting in legal trouble.

That said, I gave them a read and they look easy to understand and play (as usual for Mantic), even if unpolished at this point.

I wish them success.

 kodos wrote:
Ronni also said a while ago that chasing GW was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years.

And yet in the Epic video he openly said they're still doing their own takes on classic games, he even drops the word Epic several times.

And let's be honest, their only really successful product is "their own thing" only because GW abandoned the thing that Mantic is copying.

Which fits that perfectly, not doing the stuff GW is doing now and be a cheap alternative but do things GW is not doing in their own way.

And we still have people who are salty that KoW is not a direct copy of Warhammer Fantasy and that the factions are not identical.
Could also argue Mantic should have switched to 15mm for KoW with 2nd Edition as this could have been better in the long run

It is also that the last WP Kickstarter aimed to be a 40k alternative based on what those players asked for and was basically dead before release as 8th edition dropped
And they have more success now doing their own game without being a direct alternative (also because this spot is filled by OPR, and Firefight could be seen as an alternative to Combat Patrol rather than regular 40k, as buy a single Army Box and have fun)

That GW just releases a copy of 2nd Edi Epic by the time Mantic wanted to release a streamlined version of that game is bad luck but was planned as something GW was not doing
So by now I think the rules for their game can and should derivate more from Epic and be more like Warpath

PS: in hindsight a Space Battle game would have been the better choice but Epic focused on Aliens might still work too

Yea fair.

With GW Epic being hot steamy Man on Man action, maybe Mantic should pick two xenos races for the starter.

Well, their rules for this are still heavily "inspired" from old Epic game systems, so saying their approach to rules is different than GW is honestly false. Ronnie may have said that about their mistake on running after GW, but they can't help but still doing it.

It's not a bad thing per se. There's simply no point to try to make them look like what they're not.

With GW Epic being hot steamy Man on Man action, maybe Mantic should pick two xenos races for the starter.

Unlikely. There will be at least humans (space marines or corporate guard) vs certainly a xenos (my bet is on the plague or their space orcs).

Because let's be honest, humans in space are universally relatable and if you launch a new game at a new scale (in an unfamiliar universe for most players), it's better to start with something people can relate to.

Launching with 2 obscure xenos races is certainly not the best marketing move ever. Unless you want to have bad sales.

I really can't agree with that, Mantic has Space Dorfs, Space Skaven and Space Orks, all of which are established (beloved?) GW adjacent tropes. I don't see why they would be less successful then Mantic's Not Space Marines in Iron Man Armour.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I really can't agree with that, Mantic has Space Dorfs, Space Skaven and Space Orks, all of which are established (beloved?) GW adjacent tropes. I don't see why they would be less successful then Mantic's Not Space Marines in Iron Man Armour.

If it was just a new edition of Warpath with the same scale miniatures, sure. A new edition isn't really about launching a new game, rather continuing the same range than before with "updated rules". You already have the community and , most importantly, previous miniatures that can already be used.

But here, it's more similar to Armada : a new game with a new scale. And the reason why they went classical with Armada by launching with humans vs orcs is because it's the safest one when you launch a new game : you have humans everyone can relate to and their longsworn enemy as opponent.

When you launch a new game, it's better to have a firm basis to build the playing community. And humans are always relatable to a lot more people than, say, space rats. You can develop later if it's successful, and then knock yourself out with more esoteric factions in later editions.

At least that's my experience from previous game systems.

Sure, but this is a setting with 10 years of history, such as it is. Surely it's intended to be picked up first and foremost by existing Mantic customers who already know what it's about. In fact, a cynic might say it's intended primarily for Warpath players to re-buy their army since Mantic doesn't seem fully capable of supporting that game in 28mm...

Didn’t they say in the video that the plan was it’s Enforcers and Plague like starting. Then Asterians and something else following/same time.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sure, but this is a setting with 10 years of history, such as it is. Surely it's intended to be picked up first and foremost by existing Mantic customers who already know what it's about. In fact, a cynic might say it's intended primarily for Warpath players to re-buy their army since Mantic doesn't seem fully capable of supporting that game in 28mm...

You could say the same for Armada, that it was primarily intended towards KoW players since it's the same universe as well.

Thing is, since KoW and Warpath were first clearly made as proxies for respectively Battle and 40k, the attachment to their universes (and thus the brand) isn't the same than for GW. I wouldn't be surprised if KoW players weren't massively invested in Armada as a result. Here, better to consider it the same, just in case...

Danny76 wrote:
Didn’t they say in the video that the plan was it’s Enforcers and Plague like starting. Then Asterians and something else following/same time.

Yes. I believe they said they had plans for plastic Enforces v Plague for the starter, followed closely by Forge Fathers

Well, the question here is just which one is the first one

KoW, Deadzone and Firefight have seen multiple starters with different factions as there are no poster boys

So even with Enforcer VS Plague being the first one others could follow

I personally don't have any interest in Epic scale games, so I won't be supporting this. I don't have anything against Mantic doing it, or other people enjoying it.

I confess that even though I've been buying Mantic products for years - most recently their excellent Reapers kit - I have no idea what sells best for them, or how their finances are doing in general. What I most want to see and am most likely to buy in the future are Archon-produced Deadzone / Firefight hard plastic kits.

Mantic aren't the only ones using "epic" to describe small models. Warlord Games has a whole line of epic models for their historical range.

https://us.warlordgames.com/collections/epic

I wonder what Epic Games, the video game company makes of all this.

I would prefer proper 10mm of their fantasy being supported/created for massive fantasy battles. Especially since that space is still open.

I say that knowing that yes, you can play KoW at 10mm but an actually supported epic scale version of KoW might be just the ticket.

KoW in 10mm would be awesome as they could make them on little strips like the Warlord models/Battle of Five Armies/Warmaster.

I would go bananas for 10mm KoW that was officially supported. I am one of those people who gets bored of lists/factions after a decent number of games, and I just know 10mm KoW would see me buying a whole new army every month.

KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).

Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.

 Eilif wrote:
KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).

Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.

It's the only open space once ToW drops. And it's more suited to their rulesets. Plus you can be the first to do truly awesome epic scale 10mm fantasy with lots of huge monsters and massive blocks of infantry.

I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.

Mantic are already happy to sell you a cheap STL version of a model you can otherwise pay quite a bit for.

Selling you an army in a box on a regular basis in a different scale might not be the bad thing... could be quite refreshing for some people and get them playing more.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
KOW is a ruleset well suited to 10-15mm as written (just change measurements).

Perhaps because of that, I doubt we will see smaller scale fantasy figures from Mantic any time soon. Why would they give customers a choice to buy in a less expensive scale for their flagship game? There's no sense in cannibalizing your own sales like that.

It's the only open space once ToW drops. And it's more suited to their rulesets. Plus you can be the first to do truly awesome epic scale 10mm fantasy with lots of huge monsters and massive blocks of infantry.

I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.

Same here.

I thought that kind of thing was very unlikely (going out of 28ish mm), but seeing how another "well known" company other than GW is brave enough to to bellow 10mm gives me hope.

I can say this those dwarfs are but ugly, shoebox vehicles. doesnt matter if they are in 28, 15 or 10 mm. the other two races i have seen are great.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll never buy KoW models to play 28mm KoW. But I'd dive hard into 10mm fantasy. I can't be the only one.

Every six months or so I make a shopping list of models to build the battle of pellanor fields in 10mm. so you are very definitely not the only one!

Small scale regiments just make too much sense.