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 zend wrote:
All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.

If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?

I would have been fine with that too, but again...cat out of the bag.

Really interesting about the Silent King. But like I said much earlier in the thread, the return of an ominous threat has been alluded to in the very first PA book (although some on here still think reading into PA fluff is fruitless). The Necrons are indeed looking like the new big bad for the next chapter of 40K (at least kicking off). I would love to see them vs Ynnari (as prophesized in the first book), but of course it will be Primaris marines

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
He is robotic!
Has green light stuff too.

Just like I envisioned :O

It's been a while since I dove into the necron back ground but I recall Silent King just being a title that went to the current head of the triarch which is the over arching triad of overlords. He was called the silent king because he never spoke directly to the subjects, he had the other two do it for him. So he is just a Necron Phaeron, or at least that is what was implied.

I am sure they will make him larger then that, but there was never any hint at him being anything more then that on a physical level. I think they expanded on him in the blood angels novels where they allied (still not a fan of that) and I heard he has a death mask similar to the sanguinary guard for some odd reason.

Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.

Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.

 zend wrote:
All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.

If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?

Grey knights have their own specific recruitment and training process. It is plausible for them to not be willing/able to add the primaris upgrades.

Deathwatch is a volunteer force essentially, with a support shell and a handful of permanent veterans and leaders. The rest of their forces are seconded from other chapters, who now include primaris. Sorry brother Scipio of the ultramarines, but you must be this short to join a kill team?

 zend wrote:
All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.

If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?

Because Death Watch recruits from other chapters who are now mostly Primaris. And GK will get their Primaris upgrade when GW gets around making new models for them.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 zend wrote:
All this crying about DW not getting enough Primaris, and I’m just sitting here thinking they shouldn’t have Primaris at all and need to be fleshed out as it’s own faction of Firstborns.

If the Grey Knights rejected Primaris, why on earth would the Deathwatch embrace it when it was made and presented by those that are willing to work with the Xenos?

Grey knights have their own specific recruitment and training process. It is plausible for them to not be willing/able to add the primaris upgrades.

Deathwatch is a volunteer force essentially, with a support shell and a handful of permanent veterans and leaders. The rest of their forces are seconded from other chapters, who now include primaris. Sorry brother Scipio of the ultramarines, but you must be this short to join a kill team?

Mostly, Grey Knights don’t have Primaris because GW have decided not to pursue it. At least not yet. Let’s assume GW ultimately decides Grey Knights will get Primaris and their process will work. How do they get the tech?

I vaguely recall that the Grey Knights have a teleporter that goes to Terra, right?
They teleport a knight to Terra. He sequesters the technology as well as those trained on how to make Primaris, and they teleport back to Titan. Bam.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.

Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.

Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.

Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.

Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.

Why can't he just have spare blank bodies lying around?

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.

Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.

Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.

Why can't he just have spare blank bodies lying around?

Because he does it mid-combat to other officers in his army. If he’s not using some sort of command override then he was actually running all those bodies simultaneously already, but then why don’t they fall over when he actually does die for realsies?

 Apple Peel wrote:
How do they get the tech?

40K fluff is arbitrary. When GW makes Primaris Grey Knights they can write literally any reason for why they suddenly have them.

Yeah. They can just pull an absolutely ridiculous, ludicrous, incredibly bad written deus ex nonsense reason and add it to the canon. I mean, that's how we got primaris in the first place lol.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Right, the Necrontyr had a series of Silent Kings who ruled them. This guy is the last Silent King, who presided over the whole Necron conversion deal. Naturally, being the king of kings, he got the best metal body and the most hi-def brain scan/upload. He also got a secret master override code to all Necrons everywhere just because keeping them in line was already hard enough when they weren’t immortal metal parodies of their fleshy selves.

Didn't he also destroy the code? Which struck me as monumentally stupid considering that Necrons always seemed insane to me and I wouldn't leave massive amounts of doomsday technology in the hands of idiots.

Yeah, he did, or something like that. I’m not entirely sure it’s irreparable though, and Trazyn seems to have figured out how to hack it in order to support his body-hopping.
Maybe he’ll get an improved ‘my will be done’ (call it “My Will is Law”) that applies to the entire army or something.

Why can't he just have spare blank bodies lying around?

Because he does it mid-combat to other officers in his army. If he’s not using some sort of command override then he was actually running all those bodies simultaneously already, but then why don’t they fall over when he actually does die for realsies?

He also used to be able to possess Lychguard, which if he kept that he'd be an interesting option.

I hope dispersion shields just automatically bounce energy back again lol. That was fun. I want the fun rules back lol.

mightymconeshot wrote:Because unless they changed it, it isn't a chapter. It is an organization that draws it's members from other chapters existing forces for a specific length of service. Unless every Marine chapter has rejected Primaris Marines, it would be a major slap in the face diplomatic incidence to reject a chapters soldiers that they requested.

This would easily have been avoided had they thought things through and made multiple chapters, out of literally hundreds, flat out refuse Primaris reinforcements. Permanently. But they want fans of every chapter besides Grey Knights to buy Primaris, so here we are.

I also maintain that the Ultima founding and Cawl's entire existence should have caused a schism in the Imperium. Like, not a single Magos or Inquisitor cried Heresy on Cawl and Guilliman? No Firstborns permanently refused them or went renegade over it? It's all sunshine and lollipops just because the Custodes say they're okay? How boring.

pm713 wrote:
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...

Which makes no sense. You'd think the vast majority of them would be puritans, given how much they hate everything xenos. But I guess every single watch member is a radical and is willing to partake in or overlook the use of xenos technology.

 zend wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...

Which makes no sense. You'd think the vast majority of them would be puritans, given how much they hate everything xenos. But I guess every single watch member is a radical and is willing to partake in or overlook the use of xenos technology.

A group has most access to Xeno weaponry and technology and is used by both Radical and Puritan Inquisitors will have a mix of both.
Some Marines that refuse to use the xeno-tech and others that are more open minded, depending on the upbringing of their chapter and their own personal experiences.

I liken it to Inquisitors themselves.
Everyone starts of as a hot and heavy Puritan, and then eventually you either make enough compromises that "fight fire with fire" is a good idea, or you turn weird and build yourself a walking death-chair and launch bombs onto your own acolytes for a slight accuracy buff.

Got the harlies wd, will post once I figured out imgur

Here we go:

Wd harlies https://imgur.com/gallery/c8iHWlS

.....huh

This is actually...really kind of cool. Bravo, GW, you had An Original Idea that actually helps harlequins feel more interesting.

...Gloomwake is a hilariously bad ability, though. wtf GW did you forget that half the units in harlequins can't benefit from cover saves anyway, and -1 to wound rolls is ALWAYS ALWAYS going to be better?

Probably won't make Harequins competetive or anything, but props to GW for adding a bunch of interesting stuff that also doesn't just feel like needless, bland bloat.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Probably won't make Harequins competetive or anything, but props to GW for adding a bunch of interesting stuff that also doesn't just feel like needless, bland bloat.

I mean, it certainly makes Death Jesters amazing again. Humbling Cruelty holy gak dawg.

 zend wrote:

mightymconeshot wrote:Because unless they changed it, it isn't a chapter. It is an organization that draws it's members from other chapters existing forces for a specific length of service. Unless every Marine chapter has rejected Primaris Marines, it would be a major slap in the face diplomatic incidence to reject a chapters soldiers that they requested.

This would easily have been avoided had they thought things through and made multiple chapters, out of literally hundreds, flat out refuse Primaris reinforcements. Permanently. But they want fans of every chapter besides Grey Knights to buy Primaris, so here we are.

I also maintain that the Ultima founding and Cawl's entire existence should have caused a schism in the Imperium. Like, not a single Magos or Inquisitor cried Heresy on Cawl and Guilliman? No Firstborns permanently refused them or went renegade over it? It's all sunshine and lollipops just because the Custodes say they're okay? How boring.

pm713 wrote:
I think the Deathwatch use more alien tech than anyone else...

Which makes no sense. You'd think the vast majority of them would be puritans, given how much they hate everything xenos. But I guess every single watch member is a radical and is willing to partake in or overlook the use of xenos technology.

The Imperium is full of double standards like that. They're supposed to view humanity as a purer form of life and kill mutants. Unless they're astropaths, navigators, astartes, custodes, ogryns, ratlings or any other sanctioned mutant. Or Sanguinius who's a mutant and one of their favourite heroes.
Witches AKA psykers are meant to be hated and killed. Guess who's in charge?

In reality, the reason why Grey Knights don't have primaris is that GW sees them as distinct from normal marines. That's why they have a bunch of unique models, that's why they have tides instead of doctrines, that's why they don't have primaris

Deathwatch marines are just normal marines, but they have mixed squads. I can't help but wonder if GW made an intentional design decision to only have one "special" marine faction.

Given that Harly rules seem to have a modicum of effort put into them, the choice to half-ass the DW WD is pretty apparent. I'm going to be optimistic about DW's future for the first time and say that maybe they're getting a massive rework for 9e/next phase/whatever's after PA, given that we are seemingly shifting to a Xenos-centered story. If that were the case, it would make sense to not put too much effort into this particular update.

the_scotsman wrote:


I mean, it certainly makes Death Jesters amazing again. Humbling Cruelty holy gak dawg.

My one super weak complaint is nothing here that buffed Prismatic Cannons. Otherwise, HOLY MOLY, this is better (read: more interesting, solid, and different) than my greatest expectations. Wonderful, especially Death Jesters and Shadowseers!

Dudeface wrote:
Got the harlies wd, will post once I figured out imgur

Here we go:

Wd harlies https://imgur.com/gallery/c8iHWlS

Neat. Didn't get what I hoped for but I never was really.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


I mean, it certainly makes Death Jesters amazing again. Humbling Cruelty holy gak dawg.

My one super weak complaint is nothing here that buffed Prismatic Cannons. Otherwise, HOLY MOLY, this is better (read: more interesting, solid, and different) than my greatest expectations. Wonderful, especially Death Jesters and Shadowseers!

Yeah, just running through here:

Troupe Masters: You're going to have a hard time replacing a "Reroll all to wound rolls" aura, but Twilight Grasp could be interesting for a "Smash Master" with the new Twilight Fang relic.

Shadowseers: Gloomwake basically only matters if you are playing an all-biker army where Shield from Harm would be useless, but I feel like Veil of Illusion would be better for that purpose, making it harder to return fire on your Haywire bikes with 24" range weaponry. The beauty of it is you can look at what's in your opponent's army and tailor your SS's ability according to the matchup.

Death Jester: the big problem here is, Death Is not Enough is so bad that you'd almost never not trade it out for one of these. I guess you could theoretically get to choose to take out a heavy weapon or sergeant model, but the gameplay fantasy of "tag 1 enemy model, enemy has to make morale test at that BIG NASTY -2, whooooooah you kill the sergeaaaaant" is an unfortunate combination of extremely unlikely and extremely un-impactful when it does happen. Harvester of Torment makes the relic shriekers extremely good, and humbling cruelty makes death jesters crazy lockdown tools for 45pts. Uh, excuse me mr imperial knight, but I have shot you with a shuriken cannon so, no overwatch for you sir.

solitaire: Unnatural Acrobatics presents an extremely good combo with the "enemy models that roll a 1 to hit me take a mortal wound' relic. Otherwise these powers are kind of just side-grades. I tend to like the auto-6 advance solitaire because he's pretty reliable, but Blitz almost always gets ya boy in anyway.

Stratagems:

Pivotal Role: Almost always best spent on Troupe Masters, I guess you could spend the CP on a "Stop hitting yourself" relic solitaire, but I don't think blitz is worth 1cp personally. prince of light definitely seems worthwhile for an aura-troupe master to have in addition to reroll wounds.

Murderous Entrance: Seems very good just in general. Troupes really needed a way to threaten vehicles with their melee weapons and a good reason to not just be flying fusion pistol squads.

Polychromatic Storm: A little spendy if I'm being honest. You could probably pull some shenanigans with it, but harlequins are pretty Cp-thirsty.

Curtain Falls: Same review as Poly Storm. Safety for harlequins is almost always in more close combat anyway, I can see a few situations where I'd rather move a unit instead of either sacrificing it to close combat or consolidating, but not that many situations. A sometimes food stratagem, not bad, not good.

Twilit Encore: Where have you been all my life? Love this one so, so, so much. I also love that you get the choice to move towards the closest model OR models in the unit that fell back - though I'm sure there's some grammatical slipup in there that the BCBs in the world will latch on to to argue that it doesn't work as obviously intended.

Foes of the Mind: Might be worth 2cp again in a heavy bike setup list. I don't know whether it'd be more useful to go for this or the Gloom pivotal role on your SS (Probably this tbh, since almost all weapons these days seem to be at least -1AP)

Virtuosos of the Webway: A Neat Trick, priced right for what it is.Harlequins arent super reliable out of the deep strike, so it's good to see this as 1cp.

Relics:

Shadowstone: Sure, why not. Seems fine.

Cegorach's Lament: Just like a better version of the dreaming shadow relic, that everyone gets. Neat. I guess if someone was a real dedicated Dreaming Shadow fan they might be mad about this, but I've honestly never met anyone who cared about the canonical harlequin masques.

Twilight Fang: The harlequins' version of that "slash captain" relic the space marines have got. Twilights Grasp combined with this bad boy gets you a troupe master who costs 60pts, makes 6 attacks minimum that hit on 2s, wound on 2s, ap-2 D2, and just does more if you pick the right troupes, use strats, or just wait for later battle rounds.

The Veil of Tears: Fun for a "Safe Solitaire" relic. I'd consider it a side-grade to the cloak of knives relic, but I would consider it less fun.

Domino Shroud: I think this one kind of sucks, since it's once per battle and you can't charge afterwards. I'm not really seeing a use that warrants wasting a relic on it.

Destiny's Child: Same deal here. Minor stat boost for a relic slot? When it's competing with stuff like Twilight Fang and Cloak of Knives and Cegorach's Lament? Nah man.

Only real use I can see for Domino Shroud is as a 1 use "Get out of Jail Free" card.
Has the enemy lined up to hit your character with a psychic power? Zippity zap out at the end of their movement phase.
They've got their guns aimed right at their face after falling back from combat? Appear behind your screen of murder clowns in their Psychic Phase.
Did you just get charged by their Smash Captain and are about to be turned into a spectral paste? Well sucks to be him, you're now laughing just shy of 13" away from him.

But yeah, I share your view that it's a bit of a dud. Still cool, though.

This Harlie update is exactly what the DW one should have been.

Well it is basically don't charge this character as all it accomplishes is charger is out of position having done zero damage. I could think use for that with my armies. Albeit not sure how that fits harly army

This Harlie update is so good, wow GW....makes the effort with DW even more laughable now. So happy for my quins, there is a LOT to digest here.

While it seems that the update is popular, I have to ask - Does anyone see this justifying the place in a White Dwarf rather than with the rest of the Eldar PA stuff?