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 kingheff wrote:
In salamander lists they get the weapons that takes advantage of their bonuses best.
In master artisans lists tac squads with a las cannon they're very useful too.

Same here. Salamander are very focused on high strength low cadence weapons and anything flame based, and that's something that Primaris just don't do all that well by comparison.
My Raven Guard is almost entirely Phobos Primaris though.

I think that our troop choices are just in a great spot right now, and as long as there're rules I'll keep playing all of them. And with Legends being a thing I don't see any model getting dropped in the future. I don't play tournaments, and if someone really has an issue with my Flamer Razorbacks, I'll just find someone else to play with. But that hasn't been an issue yet (and I don't expect it to become one).

the_scotsman wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

Well, keep 'em of course.

I can' t buy Primaris as I think they are fugly ...

Fixed that for you. Subjective opinions are subjective.

"ugly" is an inherently subjective word. saying something is ugly automatically indicates you are giving a subjective opinion.

Passive aggress harder.

The original post was an imperative statement, which strongly implies the speaker believes it to be objectively true. I reworded it into a non-imperative form because subjective statements made in imperative form is a particular pet peeve of mine, it makes it unclear whether the speaker realizes he's making a subjective judgement or not, which in turn makes it harder to respond appropriately.

Edited because I'm being part of the problem.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

Well, keep 'em of course.

You can' t buy Primaris as they are fugly and GW tries to screw you with new CSM. Just one minigun in the new Havoc box? Seriously? I would have bought two boxes, if they had the decency to put at least two miniguns in there. Alas, my wishes remained unfulfilled and as a consequence my money stayed in my wallet.

Oh. I just had a buddy print me some on his 3d printer awhile back. Beats the hell out of raging against GW & pointless wishing.

 TonyH122 wrote:
Listed them on eBay the day the new kits were announced! Invested the proceeds in the infinitely superior new sculpts.

Contra the above view, I fine the new sculpts an absolute pleasure to paint. The increased detail provides liberal grounds for creative flourishes.

My issue there is that the basic troops now are nearing the same level of visual flair that characters are. For basic troops, that isn't necessary, nor even always desired (as it makes the Characters less distinct, and Troops inherently tend towards uniform looks), and definitely isn't as well appreciated artistically (as we don't spend as much time admiring Private Jenkins).

The real kicker is that so much of that new detail is so cluttered. For example, looking at the box set, one frontal chest/tabard piece has a tabard of cloth, overlaid by chainmail, overlaid by a larger chain with an icon, overlaid by a knife with a fancy hilt and small tassle hanging off it, with an elaborate belt buckle on top and attached grenade, with each element in some form of mild dynamic motion. That's a lot of stuff, and different layers, all crammed into and swinging from the crotch of a single Troop infantry model. Difficult to appreciate artistically on such a small model and relatively mundane game unit, but requiring a substantially greater investment in painting time, effort, and skill than the older simpler sculpts to make look good.

 Formosa wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I'm slowly replacing the old marines. They're basically inferior in every way to the new sculpts.
That said, I don't like all of them, so I'm not wholesale replacing.
I try to use older pieces here and there though. I don't like the new shoulders for example.
The designs are fine overall, but I hate that every single one of them has those cutouts on the sides.
Full shoulders look much more menacing and make more sense since they are supposed to protect.
I also hate that there are no "free" bolters n such like in the old kits. Or how they are all held in two hands which are also modelled into the guns AND are left handed.
But they do look good. Though the two ranges look ridiculous next to each other.

They can still somewhat be mixed up with the forgeworld parts, which gives a much better aesthetic imo.
I'm probably going to butcher some of my older kits for parts.
So yea, replacing but only to an extent.

Inferior in every way..... hell no haha, Marines are much more customisible, more options etc. all primaris have is the uniform aesthetic which I find boring, they need to mix up the Mks like real marines.

I was talking about csm, I'll have to admit that wasn't clear.
I read CSM and forgot all about how marines were also in the title and got very confused why everybdoy was talking about primaris lol.
There is more variety in designs than the old marines, and even if there wasn't, all the added detail is so far ahead of the old csm that it would make up for half the variety.
The fixed scale equally is a huge leap forward, and allows the extra detail to really shine.

And unlike primaris, they kept the aesthetic more or less intact, at least on the basic troops.
Every individual piece looks better or as good. They look better on their own and converted.
The additional options ( and there really aren't that many more) from the old kit don't make up for the lack of detail.
It makes the fewer combination much more distinct looking.

I will say they are much harder to convert though. That's a plague across their entire catalogue. And the previous kits also suffered from this to a degree.
I remember getting all kinds of greebles and weapons that didn't come with pre-sculpted hands. Those I REALLY miss.
Even so, overall, the new sculpts put the old CSM to shame. They look a LOT less like toys. At least for the basic CSM.


With primaris I can't say the same. They don't have the same design language as first born at all.
Those lost more than they gained. They're just not....space marines to me anymore.
They're some kind of bland sci-fi super soldier, sure, but that's only a small part of the grim dark marine aesthetic.
Never mind that forgeworld is putting out AMAZING first born that not only retain the grimdark feeling, but improve upon the GW models by making them more realistic.
Without going all tacti-cool as Brutus_Apex put it.

And that's just for the regular primaris, I HATE all the special units as well as the tanks.
Especially those bumbling michelin men, read inceptors...what the hell?
If I was a marine player I would be pretty miffed tbh

Heresy era for me, the age of 40k might be embiggened marines but 30k is the age of legends and iconic armours, so all my old marines are slowly becoming heresy era, helped immensely by Sarum and Mantilla Pattern helmets being a thing now so MK7 helmets can sort of be in the game.

Actually going back to play 2nd edition after 8th edition started to really kill my enthusiasm. As such, it doesn't impact either of my armies (Eldar and CSM).

The4thEnemy wrote:
Given the new releases for CSMs and the the move to Primaris everything, anyone have any suggestions/plans for the older models?

Like every replacement piece it depends. For every model that's an improvement, there's another that's a step back, or just costs so much at the new price it isn't worth replacing. Stormtroopers being my go to example for the former and Banshees for the latter.

Primaris is an odd case, since they aren't really replacements. No primaris squad has the same capabilities of an old marine squad in any way.

Gitdakka wrote:
I'll keep using them?
Long term I think about playing them with different rule set if gw continues to make 40k worse.

This.

Basically all marines should have 2 wounds.

Else play as legends renegades because restartes are heresy plain as day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:
Use them as devestators/havocs.

They aren't small. They are just far away.

Funny!

I've sold them all.

 Roknar wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I'm slowly replacing the old marines. They're basically inferior in every way to the new sculpts.
That said, I don't like all of them, so I'm not wholesale replacing.
I try to use older pieces here and there though. I don't like the new shoulders for example.
The designs are fine overall, but I hate that every single one of them has those cutouts on the sides.
Full shoulders look much more menacing and make more sense since they are supposed to protect.
I also hate that there are no "free" bolters n such like in the old kits. Or how they are all held in two hands which are also modelled into the guns AND are left handed.
But they do look good. Though the two ranges look ridiculous next to each other.

They can still somewhat be mixed up with the forgeworld parts, which gives a much better aesthetic imo.
I'm probably going to butcher some of my older kits for parts.
So yea, replacing but only to an extent.

Inferior in every way..... hell no haha, Marines are much more customisible, more options etc. all primaris have is the uniform aesthetic which I find boring, they need to mix up the Mks like real marines.

I was talking about csm, I'll have to admit that wasn't clear.
I read CSM and forgot all about how marines were also in the title and got very confused why everybdoy was talking about primaris lol.
There is more variety in designs than the old marines, and even if there wasn't, all the added detail is so far ahead of the old csm that it would make up for half the variety.
The fixed scale equally is a huge leap forward, and allows the extra detail to really shine.

And unlike primaris, they kept the aesthetic more or less intact, at least on the basic troops.
Every individual piece looks better or as good. They look better on their own and converted.
The additional options ( and there really aren't that many more) from the old kit don't make up for the lack of detail.
It makes the fewer combination much more distinct looking.

I will say they are much harder to convert though. That's a plague across their entire catalogue. And the previous kits also suffered from this to a degree.
I remember getting all kinds of greebles and weapons that didn't come with pre-sculpted hands. Those I REALLY miss.
Even so, overall, the new sculpts put the old CSM to shame. They look a LOT less like toys. At least for the basic CSM.


With primaris I can't say the same. They don't have the same design language as first born at all.
Those lost more than they gained. They're just not....space marines to me anymore.
They're some kind of bland sci-fi super soldier, sure, but that's only a small part of the grim dark marine aesthetic.
Never mind that forgeworld is putting out AMAZING first born that not only retain the grimdark feeling, but improve upon the GW models by making them more realistic.
Without going all tacti-cool as Brutus_Apex put it.

And that's just for the regular primaris, I HATE all the special units as well as the tanks.
Especially those bumbling michelin men, read inceptors...what the hell?
If I was a marine player I would be pretty miffed tbh

Agreed, the CSM and Terminator models look great. One wishes they were more poseable and had more options, but the aesthetic and execution get an A+.

If only they did that for the loyalist line, rather than the Primaris move. I hope that they might still do that.

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

In the last couple of months, I have upgraded my Chaos Space Marines to the new sculpts. I have 30 of the old CSM models that I am just going to give to someone at my story who also happens to have a small Black Legion army to help him fill out his ranks a little more. I kinda didn't want to give them up especially one of my Heavy Bolter CSMs who has bucked statistics enough I remember the model, but I don't see me ever fielding them again now and could use the little extra space getting rid of them. I know the person I am giving them to will use them and that is really all I want to happen with them. I would have given them away already if not for current events.

I am keeping the Dark Vengeance Chosen which I think I can make work if I get a hold of some 32mm base adapters. I am thinking of asking my friend with a 3D printer to make up 7 of them (6 Chosen + Exalted Champ) so they can make the 28mm base stand a little taller to give the models a little boost in height that isn't too obvious.

I am also keeping my old Chaos Terminators as I think they mix well with the new Chaos Terminators. The detail is a little softer and the weapons are a little more chunky, but at tabletop distance (and painted black) it is hard to tell new from old unless you know what you are looking for. At least to me.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Plain as day? Maybe not.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Plain as day? Maybe not.

It outright isn't. The people who largely get to choose what is and isn't heresy in-universe haven't declared it so, and any characters in universe who do are misguided.

That doesn't mean people aren't allowed to dislike them outside of the fictional universe.

Voss wrote:
Primaris is an odd case, since they aren't really replacements. No primaris squad has the same capabilities of an old marine squad in any way.

There are some squads with pretty clear parallels.

A base-line Inceptor is very similar in capability to an Attack Bike.
Lasfusile Eliminators are pretty close to a similarly pointed Devastator squad with AT weapons.
You could say the same of Suppressors and a Heavy Plasma Dev squad, although that's a bit more of a stretch.
Hellblasters and a Plasma Gun Company Veteran squad aren't that far apart.
The Repulsor covers the range between the Land Raider and the LR Crusader, depending on how you arm it.
You could reasonably make the argument that Eliminators and Sniper Scouts, Intercessors and Tac Marines, and Incursors and Scouts are in basically the same roles.

Obviously there are differences in the available support strats and points-efficiency of the units, but that's not the topic under discussion.

Play them cuz Primaris weren't around in m38(where my collecting began).

But I love my Primaris and will continue to run them side by side.

Primaris "are" replacements. However, they're not finished yet - and won't be for some time. They're also not direct replacements, but rather the Primaris army as a whole will replace the "attributes" of an old-marine army eventually. There will be close fighty dudes, heavier armoured dudes, a variety of anti-tank options, etc. etc.

So the functions of the old-marine army will be adopted by differing units in the new Primaris army.

The Newman wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I'm slowly replacing the old marines. They're basically inferior in every way to the new sculpts.
That said, I don't like all of them, so I'm not wholesale replacing.
I try to use older pieces here and there though. I don't like the new shoulders for example.
The designs are fine overall, but I hate that every single one of them has those cutouts on the sides.
Full shoulders look much more menacing and make more sense since they are supposed to protect.
I also hate that there are no "free" bolters n such like in the old kits. Or how they are all held in two hands which are also modelled into the guns AND are left handed.
But they do look good. Though the two ranges look ridiculous next to each other.

They can still somewhat be mixed up with the forgeworld parts, which gives a much better aesthetic imo.
I'm probably going to butcher some of my older kits for parts.
So yea, replacing but only to an extent.

Inferior in every way..... hell no haha, Marines are much more customisible, more options etc. all primaris have is the uniform aesthetic which I find boring, they need to mix up the Mks like real marines.

That's an entirely subjective evaluation, we could argue that in circles until we're all blue in the face and never get anywhere. I agree with Roknar and disagree with you, but I know trying to persuade you to my point of view on the matter is a waste of time for everyone involved.

Dude you have that backwards haha, real marines objectively have more options and customisation to them, aesthetically it's purely subjective you are right though

The4thEnemy wrote:
Given the new releases for CSMs and the the move to Primaris everything, anyone have any suggestions/plans for the older models?

Hold objectives? Bodyguard for Terminator Wolf Guard Pack Leaders with Thunder Hammers? Carry plasmaguns on the outflank? All of these are things I currently assign Grey Hunter squads to do, and I don't really see myself stopping doing so unless doing the thing in question in the first places becomes unuseful.

For other small marine models, Long Fangs are basically my army backbone, so they're definitely still seeing the table. Primaris have added capability to my army, or at least have provided some capabilities stapled to playable platforms that were previously attached to units I never played, but they haven't really replaced my other units.

Keep them in their case never to be seen again. Or I could...

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/141508-Hothead-Gamer-Burns-Warhammer-Fantasy-Army-Over-New-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

Give them a fiery Viking burial. But not on a boat- probably on concrete or something.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Plain as day? Maybe not.

It outright isn't. The people who largely get to choose what is and isn't heresy in-universe haven't declared it so, and any characters in universe who do are misguided.

That doesn't mean people aren't allowed to dislike them outside of the fictional universe.

*Woooosh*

Use them to play 7th. I cannot support this Primaris marketing ploy by GW to inject some pants on head lore justification for why these Marines are Marines +1 (and somehow not Uber-heresy) and how they are effectively replacing proper Marines in the fluff and eventually the table top.

 Vankraken wrote:
Use them to play 7th. I cannot support this Primaris marketing ploy by GW to inject some pants on head lore justification for why these Marines are Marines +1 (and somehow not Uber-heresy) and how they are effectively replacing proper Marines in the fluff and eventually the table top.

If you're going to do that, use them to play a good edition . Maybe 5th. I liked 5th. Some people liked 3rd.

I have no plans to abandon using tactical marines. In fact I really dislike the look of my army having both primaris and non-primaris units so I'm currently building a White Scars successor army using only non-primaris models.

While I do think the Primaris models are more proportional and more "realistic" looking, I never questioned the look of my space marines before they introduced beefier space marines and I kind of wish they had just kept releasing normal, non-primaris marines instead.

 Roknar wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I'm slowly replacing the old marines. They're basically inferior in every way to the new sculpts.
That said, I don't like all of them, so I'm not wholesale replacing.
I try to use older pieces here and there though. I don't like the new shoulders for example.
The designs are fine overall, but I hate that every single one of them has those cutouts on the sides.
Full shoulders look much more menacing and make more sense since they are supposed to protect.
I also hate that there are no "free" bolters n such like in the old kits. Or how they are all held in two hands which are also modelled into the guns AND are left handed.
But they do look good. Though the two ranges look ridiculous next to each other.

They can still somewhat be mixed up with the forgeworld parts, which gives a much better aesthetic imo.
I'm probably going to butcher some of my older kits for parts.
So yea, replacing but only to an extent.

Inferior in every way..... hell no haha, Marines are much more customisible, more options etc. all primaris have is the uniform aesthetic which I find boring, they need to mix up the Mks like real marines.

I was talking about csm, I'll have to admit that wasn't clear.
I read CSM and forgot all about how marines were also in the title and got very confused why everybdoy was talking about primaris lol.
There is more variety in designs than the old marines, and even if there wasn't, all the added detail is so far ahead of the old csm that it would make up for half the variety.
The fixed scale equally is a huge leap forward, and allows the extra detail to really shine.

And unlike primaris, they kept the aesthetic more or less intact, at least on the basic troops.
Every individual piece looks better or as good. They look better on their own and converted.
The additional options ( and there really aren't that many more) from the old kit don't make up for the lack of detail.
It makes the fewer combination much more distinct looking.

I will say they are much harder to convert though. That's a plague across their entire catalogue. And the previous kits also suffered from this to a degree.
I remember getting all kinds of greebles and weapons that didn't come with pre-sculpted hands. Those I REALLY miss.
Even so, overall, the new sculpts put the old CSM to shame. They look a LOT less like toys. At least for the basic CSM.


With primaris I can't say the same. They don't have the same design language as first born at all.
Those lost more than they gained. They're just not....space marines to me anymore.
They're some kind of bland sci-fi super soldier, sure, but that's only a small part of the grim dark marine aesthetic.
Never mind that forgeworld is putting out AMAZING first born that not only retain the grimdark feeling, but improve upon the GW models by making them more realistic.
Without going all tacti-cool as Brutus_Apex put it.

And that's just for the regular primaris, I HATE all the special units as well as the tanks.
Especially those bumbling michelin men, read inceptors...what the hell?
If I was a marine player I would be pretty miffed tbh

Yeah I mean the fact that primaris marines have TWELVE discreet bolt gun variants among them and one single chainsword bit available on an upgrade sprue kind of highlights the flaw in GW's attempt to keep them being what a space marine is.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Use them to play 7th. I cannot support this Primaris marketing ploy by GW to inject some pants on head lore justification for why these Marines are Marines +1 (and somehow not Uber-heresy) and how they are effectively replacing proper Marines in the fluff and eventually the table top.

If you're going to do that, use them to play a good edition . Maybe 5th. I liked 5th. Some people liked 3rd.

I do chuckle a bit at the assertion that 8th is the best balanced 40k has ever been, because it's true but not in the way that anyone wanted. I remember 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. I remember being able to say with 80% certainty that a CMS list would beat a DA list without knowing anything else about them, predicting most of the rest with just a look at the army lists, and predicting most of the fraction that was left on who won the roll to go first.

8th is so lethal that the roll to go first decides more games than anything else, but that's an improvement on where the game started. At least games are being decided on the table now. Sort of.

The Newman wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Use them to play 7th. I cannot support this Primaris marketing ploy by GW to inject some pants on head lore justification for why these Marines are Marines +1 (and somehow not Uber-heresy) and how they are effectively replacing proper Marines in the fluff and eventually the table top.

If you're going to do that, use them to play a good edition . Maybe 5th. I liked 5th. Some people liked 3rd.

I do chuckle a bit at the assertion that 8th is the best balanced 40k has ever been, because it's true but not in the way that anyone wanted. I remember 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. I remember being able to say with 80% certainty that a CMS list would beat a DA list without knowing anything else about them, predicting most of the rest with just a look at the army lists, and predicting most of the fraction that was left on who won the roll to go first.

8th is so lethal that the roll to go first decides more games than anything else, but that's an improvement on where the game started. At least games are being decided on the table now. Sort of.

I wonder what the current competitive winrate of the first player is right now.

Changed everyone to the larger base size

Sticking to 30k as well for a lot of gaming - when do you think FW will do a scale creep on heresy models? 5+ years easily

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah I mean the fact that primaris marines have TWELVE discreet bolt gun variants among them and one single chainsword bit available on an upgrade sprue kind of highlights the flaw in GW's attempt to keep them being what a space marine is.

Isn't the Bolt gun the most iconic of the space marines' weapons? I don't how having more variations of their most iconic weapon makes Primaris lesser space marines. I will admit the chainsword thing was missed opportunity on Rievers, but hardly difficult to convert and is mechanically the same thing anyways. That is what I did with mine. As for Intercessors, it isn't like they can have any less chainswords than Tactical marines. Reivers are about the closest thing to an assault squad for Primaris. I think what you are saying is Primaris don't feel like marines because they don't directly compete with Firstborn units.

Games Workshop seems to have went to a lot of trouble to prevent Primaris being Firstborn replacements. Which can be annoying especially since space marines have a fairly complete roster of stuff. So Primaris had to be wedged in the margins of being similar to a Firstborn unit role as to allow a Primaris only player to have access to it while at the same time offering something different enough to not be a replacement/basically the same thing.