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Reivers should have been given power-swords, to be honest.

I like the Primaris sculpts way more than the older stuff. I even like the proportioning on them compared to the new Chaos Space Marines. But I wouldn't say Primaris are superior in every way to non-primaris space marines in every way. Some people like the older space marine sculpts and the older GW aesthetic. Rules wise, Firstborn still offer different ways to accomplish things allow a player to select how they want to accomplish a desired effect.

I would say non-Primaris space marines are easier to customize as they were designed with interchangeable parts and have several years to accumulate bits across both Citadel, Forge World and third-party companies. That said, if a person doesn't want Primaris to look uniform, previous space marine helmets and pauldrons can be used just as easily. Additionally, bits and green stuff can be added to Primaris models just easily as they can to non-Primaris. Is it easier? No, but is it still quite possible. I also think as the Primaris line matures there will be more and more bling available to them.

I personally like the lack of in situ Gothic/Grim Dark details on Primaris models. I like a fairly clean space marine and don't like having to remove extra stuff I don't want. At the same time, if I do want a little extra, I like the black 'canvas' work with rather than incorporating what is already there. Sure, that isn't for everyone as some people want their customization to be use this bit from this kit on that kit which Primaris definitely don't allow for nearly as much as the older stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reivers should have been given power-swords, to be honest.

Well, maybe not the whole squad (although you wouldn't hear me complaining if they did), but the Sergeant very much should have melee options.

The Primaris are better miniatures, hands-down. I don't want to buy, own, or paint them though. It's weird because I spent all that time carefully scraping all the 'gothic' cruft off my 'Firstborn' marines. I've been thinking lately that maybe it's because they look like they're knock-offs.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reivers should have been given power-swords, to be honest.

I think they're fine without them. AP is overrated.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I like the Primaris sculpts way more than the older stuff. I even like the proportioning on them compared to the new Chaos Space Marines. But I wouldn't say Primaris are superior in every way to non-primaris space marines in every way. Some people like the older space marine sculpts and the older GW aesthetic. Rules wise, Firstborn still offer different ways to accomplish things allow a player to select how they want to accomplish a desired effect.

I would say non-Primaris space marines are easier to customize as they were designed with interchangeable parts and have several years to accumulate bits across both Citadel, Forge World and third-party companies. That said, if a person doesn't want Primaris to look uniform, previous space marine helmets and pauldrons can be used just as easily. Additionally, bits and green stuff can be added to Primaris models just easily as they can to non-Primaris. Is it easier? No, but is it still quite possible. I also think as the Primaris line matures there will be more and more bling available to them.

I personally like the lack of in situ Gothic/Grim Dark details on Primaris models. I like a fairly clean space marine and don't like having to remove extra stuff I don't want. At the same time, if I do want a little extra, I like the black 'canvas' work with rather than incorporating what is already there. Sure, that isn't for everyone as some people want their customization to be use this bit from this kit on that kit which Primaris definitely don't allow for nearly as much as the older stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reivers should have been given power-swords, to be honest.

Well, maybe not the whole squad (although you wouldn't hear me complaining if they did), but the Sergeant very much should have melee options.

I approve this message.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reivers should have been given power-swords, to be honest.

I think they're fine without them. AP is overrated.

The Reiver serg wants a Power Axe from both a rules and an aesthetic perspective. (A short-handled tactical axe, obviously.)

Yeah, its weird that the sergeant can't get one. I'm over it though.

Insectum7 wrote:*Woooosh*

Explanation? (I know what r/woosh means, but I'm missing it's relevance here?)

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:Isn't the Bolt gun the most iconic of the space marines' weapons? I don't how having more variations of their most iconic weapon makes Primaris lesser space marines. I will admit the chainsword thing was missed opportunity on Rievers, but hardly difficult to convert and is mechanically the same thing anyways. That is what I did with mine. As for Intercessors, it isn't like they can have any less chainswords than Tactical marines.

This is what I keep saying. Bolters are more iconic than chainswords, IMO, and even then, unless you played a (admittedly) deviant Chapter like the Space Wolves or Black Tempars or unique Chapter, your core Tacticals didn't have chainswords either. Sure, I'd like Primaris Marines to have chainswords in the sprue (without needing an upgrade pack), but if you were a Space Marine players beforehand, you probably had dozens of spare chainswords anyway.

space marines have a fairly complete roster of stuff.

Very true. While I love Primaris, I can't help but think that literally any other faction should have had a revamp first.

The Newman wrote:The Reiver serg wants a Power Axe from both a rules and an aesthetic perspective. (A short-handled tactical axe, obviously.)

I'd love for the whole squad to have tactical axes, facaltas or kukris.

A bolter a marine does not make.
They made marines...rounder, softer. On top of removing all the bling.
They are much more toned down...too much so. And that's before you get into gravis armour and such.

They are doing a better job with the more chapter specific models mind you.
Yet you loose ALL the variety in marks. I could see them getting better as time goes on, but for me they way overshot with the sensibility.
It's the grimdark, I don't want sensible marines, they're bland. That might work for different media formats but not as the baseline.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reivers should have been given power-swords, to be honest.

I think they're fine without them. AP is overrated.

This post was brought to you by BA +1 to wound gang.

You can't make me squat my Sergeant who slew a Nurgle Biker Lord armed with nothing but a Chainsword, or my other Sergeant who single handedly defeated 30 Kroot, or my pair of bolter marines that gunned down a Shadowfield Archon in overwatch.

You can take the Plasma Cannon guy who blew up on Turn 1, which caused his combat squad to fail a morale check and run off their third story objective and off the board, though.

Even with that. And yes, AP is overrated.

I use them for the carbines more than punching anyway.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Yes it is... what you read is just imperial propaganda. Anyone with faith in the emperor knows it to be true.

Cawl clearly has tapped the powers of chaos to turn 10k years of imperial rot into flying tanks and GI SuperJoes.

Anyone who doesnt see the truth in this is obviously equally tainted.

Saturmorn Carvilli 787175 10767041 wrote:

Games Workshop seems to have went to a lot of trouble to prevent Primaris being Firstborn replacements. Which can be annoying especially since space marines have a fairly complete roster of stuff. So Primaris had to be wedged in the margins of being similar to a Firstborn unit role as to allow a Primaris only player to have access to it while at the same time offering something different enough to not be a replacement/basically the same thing.

Mistake to open a hotdog stand next to your own pizza shop, in a similar way...




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 Vankraken wrote:
Use them to play 7th. I cannot support this Primaris marketing ploy by GW to inject some pants on head lore justification for why these Marines are Marines +1 (and somehow not Uber-heresy) and how they are effectively replacing proper Marines in the fluff and eventually the table top.

This. But i lean toward 2nd


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Plain as day? Maybe not.

It outright isn't. The people who largely get to choose what is and isn't heresy in-universe haven't declared it so, and any characters in universe who do are misguided.

That doesn't mean people aren't allowed to dislike them outside of the fictional universe.

I disagree.
Any loyal Sisters of Battle will follow Girlymans flying tanks? Mine wont...

See, i get to choose. So do you.

 jeff white wrote:

I disagree.
Any loyal Sisters of Battle will follow Girlymans flying tanks? Mine wont...

See, i get to choose. So do you.

Mine won't, but that's because it would be a net detriment to both side to include them alongside each other . That said, I really like the new repulsor executioner.

Considering the Stormtroopers are now called Scions, I don't think GW will stop facilitating a use for Tac marines...

Most of the models in my army are older than many of the Primaris players today...

Carry on using them - why wouldn't I?

Long time Chaos player here. I'm dying to get my hands on the new CSM kit. They blow the old plastic ones out of the water! Customizability is a tad limited but aside from the odd head and shoulder swap I don't do a lot of customising anyway.

I'm keeping my old spikey marines. I've mixed in a fair bit of loyalist and HH bits to keep them fresh and will be keeping them as a Red Corsairs force. The old kits are on par with the current non-primaris loyalists in terms of size, so using them as fresh renegades makes sense to me.

Once I get some new kits I'll use them as Legionnaires (once I decide on a legion) in a new force, or as Chosen.

Martel732 wrote:
I've got 6 rhino. 6 razors, 6 pred hulls that are all worthless now. And 5 drop pods. All worthless. Next time I move, they probably aren't coming with me. Most of these are circa 5th ed, so I guess I got my usage out of them. It's still really hard to feel good about anything GW does with newbois.

huh, I wish I could get hold of some more drop pods for a reduced price for my Dark Angels, only have one but want three and they're still being sold at regular discount prices despite "no one" using them. Picked up 2 Razorbacks recently, added kromlech twin assault cannon and whirlwind launcher options for variability. Thinking about getting a 5 man assault squad to make my current one 10 strong. That will give me 3 full Tacs, a couple of devastator and 1 assault squad, 2 Razorbacks, 1 rhino (could use razors for these too), dread, support characters. Nothing wrong with having some good old marines for games.
Also building a Primaris addition for the army, but it's still an incomplete line so no rush. Won't add much, if any Phobos, that's for my Ravenguard.

It's a little thing, but I don't like that they gave Reivers skull helmets. That was pretty exclusively a Chaplain thing as far as I know, and I don't like that they diluted that.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Use them to play 7th. I cannot support this Primaris marketing ploy by GW to inject some pants on head lore justification for why these Marines are Marines +1 (and somehow not Uber-heresy) and how they are effectively replacing proper Marines in the fluff and eventually the table top.

If you're going to do that, use them to play a good edition . Maybe 5th. I liked 5th. Some people liked 3rd.

I go with 7th because its the edition have the most playtime with and enjoyed the most. That said I wholeheartedly believe that 7th could of been a great edition in the hands of competent rules writers. The core rule set of 7th just needs a few adjustments and the codexes needed to not go all spinal tap with the power creep.

bullyboy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've got 6 rhino. 6 razors, 6 pred hulls that are all worthless now. And 5 drop pods. All worthless. Next time I move, they probably aren't coming with me. Most of these are circa 5th ed, so I guess I got my usage out of them. It's still really hard to feel good about anything GW does with newbois.

huh, I wish I could get hold of some more drop pods for a reduced price for my Dark Angels, only have one but want three and they're still being sold at regular discount prices despite "no one" using them. Picked up 2 Razorbacks recently, added kromlech twin assault cannon and whirlwind launcher options for variability. Thinking about getting a 5 man assault squad to make my current one 10 strong. That will give me 3 full Tacs, a couple of devastator and 1 assault squad, 2 Razorbacks, 1 rhino (could use razors for these too), dread, support characters. Nothing wrong with having some good old marines for games.
Also building a Primaris addition for the army, but it's still an incomplete line so no rush. Won't add much, if any Phobos, that's for my Ravenguard.

Martel732 wrote:I've got 6 rhino. 6 razors, 6 pred hulls that are all worthless now. And 5 drop pods. All worthless. Next time I move, they probably aren't coming with me. Most of these are circa 5th ed, so I guess I got my usage out of them. It's still really hard to feel good about anything GW does with newbois.

I'm still using and getting solid use out of mine, and thinking of buying more of them for both my Space Wolves and my Grey Knights. Well, Razorbacks & Land Raider for the GK, Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds for the Space Wolves. Particularly Vindicators and Whirlwinds, as I currently have 0, but I want to field like 3 of each. Project Armored Furry is going to have to wait though, since I can't get much of anything right now and there's some other stuff I want to get, since I haven't been able to religiously keep up with releases at all. I'm also still deciding what I want to play competitively for the near future, since I don't feel confident playing IG competitively [new secondaries helps though, since I'm only starting 8 in the hole instead of 12 in the hole], I'm still not very happy with anything I've put together under the new Sisters codex, Space Wolves are just Marines-1 and marines counter marines right now, I don't feel that I could take on Knights and Flyers and Aggressors and SM in general as GK, and my Custodes army is too small and lacking in the good stuff to make it tabletop worthy in its own right outside of being an auxiliary to my Guard. Whichever one I choose will be first on the list for reinforcements when the quarantine is lifted and I can buy new models again.



Anyway, I'm really excited about my Space Wolves right now, and that includes having a bunch of Old Marine stuff that I don't have on the list of things I desire from both a rules and models standpoint, so I don't really get this whole "Primaris Panic" thing. Like, honestly, for the most part I'm looking at the OldMarine stuff for the rules and the Primaris stuff for the models right now. Not that I don't like Old Marine models, I love the Vindicator and Predator [though I don't like the Whirlwind, someone suggested using the SM Air Defense Tarantula turret on a Razorback chassis, which I think suits what I want better], but my lists are mostly looking at oldmarine stuff carrying the weight with Primaris for some utility units.

All those units are basically gak for BA imo.

Roknar wrote:They made marines...rounder, softer. On top of removing all the bling.

In all fairness, a lot of people, including long-term 40k fans, didn't like how blinged up basic Marines were getting. As users in this thread have said, they would cut off the bling on older models. As I see it, it's a lot easier to add bling to an unblinged model than to carve it all off. If you like your Marines fancy and blinged up, there's nothing stopping you adding that detail in.

jeff white wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Yes it is... what you read is just imperial propaganda. Anyone with faith in the emperor knows it to be true.

Is this supposed to be in-character or something? We literally have direct proof that the Emperor is completely okay with what Guilliman is doing. Unless you're implying that Guilliman fabricated an entire story for only himself in his own head, or that the Custodes are all traitors and heretics?

Cawl clearly has tapped the powers of chaos to turn 10k years of imperial rot into flying tanks and GI SuperJoes.

Anyone who doesnt see the truth in this is obviously equally tainted.

You know this isn't a roleplaying thread? We have more than enough evidence from an OOC perspective to know that all of that isn't true. That's not saying that characters in universe can't have that belief, but we, from an outside perspective, surely know this isn't the case?

Any loyal Sisters of Battle will follow Girlymans flying tanks? Mine wont...

See, i get to choose. So do you.

Well, yes. No-one said that you weren't allowed Your Dudes. But at the same time, if GW say that many, if not most, Sisters follow Guilliman, that's canon. Ignore that, headcanon it, do what you will, what you do with your headcanon is none of my business. Sure, YOUR Sisters might not follow Guilliman, but if GW says/implies that most do, well, that's what it is.

Martel732 wrote:
All those units are basically gak for BA imo.

I don't see why they'd be less gak for Space Wolves than Blood Angels. They'd be better for other marine chapters, true, but we're still marines and we can do marine things.

As far as I see, the Vindicator is probably pretty good. If the Exorcist was good pre codex, then the Vindicator is definitely good post-codex.
The Whirlwind seems to be popular, and my take on it is that it's really damn cheap for what it brings, so even if it's downrange isn't impressive, it brings useful and threatening capability on a very inexpensive platform. I'm not sure if I want Castellan or Vengeance missiles, because I plan to use them to make the enemy regret taking Engineers or one of the other secondaries based on having a chosen unit hold a point [or encourage them to take some other maneuver secondary that forces them to play with me where I want them to be in a wya that's bad for them]. On one hand, I'm worried that Vengeance Missiles won't be enough to wipe out Guardsmen or other high body count low cost engineer units, but Castellan Missiles won't knock out Sisters or Marines or other high resiliency low cost engineer units, and are more versatile and lethal for doing other things. It's currently a moot point, because I have no whirlwinds and won't be able to buy any until the quarantine clears.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All those units are basically gak for BA imo.

I don't see why they'd be less gak for Space Wolves than Blood Angels. They'd be better for other marine chapters, true, but we're still marines and we can do marine things.

As far as I see, the Vindicator is probably pretty good. If the Exorcist was good pre codex, then the Vindicator is definitely good post-codex.
The Whirlwind seems to be popular, and my take on it is that it's really damn cheap for what it brings, so even if it's downrange isn't impressive, it brings useful and threatening capability on a very inexpensive platform. I'm not sure if I want Castellan or Vengeance missiles, because I plan to use them to make the enemy regret taking Engineers or one of the other secondaries based on having a chosen unit hold a point [or encourage them to take some other maneuver secondary that forces them to play with me where I want them to be in a wya that's bad for them]. On one hand, I'm worried that Vengeance Missiles won't be enough to wipe out Guardsmen or other high body count low cost engineer units, but Castellan Missiles won't knock out Sisters or Marines or other high resiliency low cost engineer units, and are more versatile and lethal for doing other things. It's currently a moot point, because I have no whirlwinds and won't be able to buy any until the quarantine clears.

All BA lists revolve around jumpbois doing tripoints at this juncture.

I play 3rd, so I will be using standard models instead of Primaris or the upgraded Chaos. If anything, I'll be looking for some of the older kits to go up on the cheap.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Roknar wrote:They made marines...rounder, softer. On top of removing all the bling.

In all fairness, a lot of people, including long-term 40k fans, didn't like how blinged up basic Marines were getting. As users in this thread have said, they would cut off the bling on older models. As I see it, it's a lot easier to add bling to an unblinged model than to carve it all off. If you like your Marines fancy and blinged up, there's nothing stopping you adding that detail in.

jeff white wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote: restartes are heresy plain as day.

Is that heresy in universe? Because, as I hate to bring up, it's not.

Yes it is... what you read is just imperial propaganda. Anyone with faith in the emperor knows it to be true.

Is this supposed to be in-character or something? We literally have direct proof that the Emperor is completely okay with what Guilliman is doing. Unless you're implying that Guilliman fabricated an entire story for only himself in his own head, or that the Custodes are all traitors and heretics?

Cawl clearly has tapped the powers of chaos to turn 10k years of imperial rot into flying tanks and GI SuperJoes.

Anyone who doesnt see the truth in this is obviously equally tainted.

You know this isn't a roleplaying thread? We have more than enough evidence from an OOC perspective to know that all of that isn't true. That's not saying that characters in universe can't have that belief, but we, from an outside perspective, surely know this isn't the case?

Any loyal Sisters of Battle will follow Girlymans flying tanks? Mine wont...

See, i get to choose. So do you.

Well, yes. No-one said that you weren't allowed Your Dudes. But at the same time, if GW say that many, if not most, Sisters follow Guilliman, that's canon. Ignore that, headcanon it, do what you will, what you do with your headcanon is none of my business. Sure, YOUR Sisters might not follow Guilliman, but if GW says/implies that most do, well, that's what it is.

Wow. K. Koolaid much?

I am going to let go however direct proof can be found and that if none of this is your business then how does it lead to such a lengthy preachy post with CAPS to simply reiterate that THIS - the reasoning that you offer in ypur post - is why my Marines will play as loyalists though they may be regarded by followers of heretics Cawl and Girlyman as traitors to Cawl and Girlyman.

Restartes are EDIT tools of chaos gods traceable back to the original foul gash in the universe re Eldar in universe and IRL products of greed and sloth. My marines remain loyal.

Edit - and custodes arent heretics, just poorly informed do gooders.

BTW I had told myself that i would NEVER buy a Restartes model. The new Ghaz box had me close to breakng this rule because the restartes incuded are so vanilla that they might mix well with the OG marines or maybe I would sell the restartes half given that the Ragnar model is pretty meh...
But now after reading your post Smudge, my conviction is reaffirmed. I love the gothic over the top ornamentation celebrating ritual and evidence of a civilization in decline. Now it is Justin Bieberman and the McWeenies come to save the day in their shiny flying tanks sans bling as you call it. I will never own a heretic restartes anything for 40k. The taint stinks of corruption and Smudge, that is not in my head.

They are committee designed, marketing informed, blandified fan-marines.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They are committee designed, marketing informed, blandified fan-marines.

Heresy is my word for all of the above.
Exalted.

For what it’s worth on the heresy discussion, the emperor has historically had no say on the religion he never wanted to be a thing, gulliman explicitly isn’t a member of the religion (and thus by it’s principles is already heretical just for that), and Cawl couldn’t any more plainly be a heretek within the barely tolerated alternative human religion.

Primaris are extremely heretical within the standards of the imperial cult, it’s just orders have come down from on high within the totalitarian theocratic state that this week’s official doublethink is to ignore that. Cognitive dissonance isn’t exactly new to the imperium either.

Keep using them? Why wouldn't I do that?