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What will I do with my old tactical marines? Proudly keep them in the display case of course! I'm still very fond of Firstborn marines.

I'm always surprised at how much vitriol can get thrown around in these Primaris vs Firstborn debates. For the most part, I'm not a Primaris fan. I like the basic Mark X armour, gravis is OK, I dislike Phobos (for me it's more the leg armour than the tacticool that's particularly offputting about those), I don't really like the design of the dread/warsuit, and the grav tanks are perhaps the worst offenders (I don't like the design, and I'm also a firm believer that the only anti-grav vehicles space marines should have are Land Speeders, unless your name happens to be Sammael). But I'm not going to try to argue that something about the designs are inherently un-space marine, just that I personally don't like a large proportion of them. I recognise that the sculpts are technically better than the old ones, and I generally like the poses better. But I still prefer the design aesthetic of most of the old marine units. I remain a firm fan of terminators even though their shoulders are the same height as their heads...

I guess I also find it harder than most to let go of the idea that a 40k-era marine battle company is 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads and 2 Devastator squads. It's probably better for GW to leave that behind, because the more uncertain chapter organisation we've got now is better for making your collection what you want it to be, rather than what the Codex Astartes wants it to be. Although, I personally wouldn't mix Firstborn and Primaris units. I just think it looks weird. So my Salamanders army is entirely Firstborn. I've got the Primaris from Dark Imperium and Wake the Dead - coincidentally the Primaris sculpts that I like better, so that's handy. But when I finally get around to working on them I'm not going to add them to my Salamanders, I'll make them a different chapter entirely. My Sallies can be slightly historical pre-Gathering Storm, and whatever chapter I pick for the Primaris can be 'current'. But it might be a while, because even though they're my favourite of the Primaris sculpts they don't excite me as much as my other projects.

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have. The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

Tootles Smudge.

Except you are just making stuff up in your head. Nothing about the Manlet Marines says anything you've been saying. You're wrong. So get over it.

Removed - Rule #1 please

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have.

Where.

The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

You can't just say "it isn't" - give me sources. Give me artistic analysis. Give me detailed breakdowns.

Otherwise, your point has as much weight behind it as a puff of mist. "It isn't" is countered just as easily by a flimsy "it is" - and I've provided far more than such a basic rebuttal.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Yeah - because your whole point has been "tacticool=bad, marines need to be wearing ornate decorated armour all the time lul" - which, sorry to tell you, but Scouts don't fill that!
You're just repeating the same old memes and untruths without backing anything up with an argument beyond "Restartes BAD DURR" - give us SOMETHING with more substance, for the sake of the people who also dislike Primaris! Right now, you're doing them a disservice with your lack of an argument.

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

All the more for me - I'm sure GW won't miss your purchases?

Removed - Rule #1 please

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have. The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

Tootles Smudge.

Except you are just making stuff up in your head. Nothing about the Manlet Marines says anything you've been saying. You're wrong. So get over it.

Then you have not read what i have written and rather also squeal at two pictures and scouts.

Another reason to hate restartes...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have.

Where.

The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

You can't just say "it isn't" - give me sources. Give me artistic analysis. Give me detailed breakdowns.

Otherwise, your point has as much weight behind it as a puff of mist. "It isn't" is countered just as easily by a flimsy "it is" - and I've provided far more than such a basic rebuttal.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Yeah - because your whole point has been "tacticool=bad, marines need to be wearing ornate decorated armour all the time lul" - which, sorry to tell you, but Scouts don't fill that!
You're just repeating the same old memes and untruths without backing anything up with an argument beyond "Restartes BAD DURR" - give us SOMETHING with more substance, for the sake of the people who also dislike Primaris! Right now, you're doing them a disservice with your lack of an argument.

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

All the more for me - I'm sure GW won't miss your purchases?

Tootles Smudge.

I mean, if that's truly you giving up your argument, I'm not complaining. Maybe the next person will have something worth discussing?

There is the diminishment of the background as parody on contemporary empty ritual and excess.

 jeff white wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have. The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

Tootles Smudge.

Except you are just making stuff up in your head. Nothing about the Manlet Marines says anything you've been saying. You're wrong. So get over it.

Then you have not read what i have written and rather also squeal at two pictures and scouts.

Another reason to hate restartes...

I did. You made these claims about Knights In Space and Gothic Feel only to be quickly dismissed when shown that a majority of the Marine models don't actually have those elements overall, and then you make up stuff about Primaris looking at social media for whatever reason. It isn't even being subjectively wrong, you're objectively wrong.

Bellerophon wrote:For the most part, I'm not a Primaris fan... But I'm not going to try to argue that something about the designs are inherently un-space marine, just that I personally don't like a large proportion of them.

I appreciate your reason. You've clearly stated why you don't like them (I may disagree, but that's not really important), and made it very clear that it's just your opinion, and that you'd never just say that they're not Space Marines because you don't like them.
I'm not overly keen on many "classic" Space Marine things (I actually don't really like Bikes, and have a tenuous relationship with Land Speeders - similarly, I'm not massively keen on Tartaros Armour, and not even fond of beaky helmets!), but I'd never say that they're "not Space Marine" just because I personally don't like them.

jeff white wrote:Let me restate.
You are a supremely unpleasant fanboi.

I am glad to never speak with you and certainly i couldnt stomach a game with you.

Enjoy your restartes Smudge.

Thank you for your contribution, though I'm not sure this is particularly within forum rules?

jeff white wrote:There is the diminishment of the background as parody on contemporary empty ritual and excess.

Okay - where? Where does it say anywhere in the modern lore that Primaris Marines don't take part in the same rituals and practices as their Firstborn brethren?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jeff White in reality has no argument and never did. It's like the blind 1d4chan hating on Matt Ward without actually knowing anything beyond memes.

Ok. Yup. You got me. No argument. Just missing context. You cant see what you cant see i guess. Must be me.

Or it could be the actual move from religious fervor to new science in the restartes update around heretic cawl and girlyman which advsnces out of gothic into renaissance when looking historically...

But maybe you cant see that part of the argument. The context part... you also cackle scouts and pet your restartes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Bellerophon wrote:For the most part, I'm not a Primaris fan... But I'm not going to try to argue that something about the designs are inherently un-space marine, just that I personally don't like a large proportion of them.

I appreciate your reason. You've clearly stated why you don't like them (I may disagree, but that's not really important), and made it very clear that it's just your opinion, and that you'd never just say that they're not Space Marines because you don't like them.
I'm not overly keen on many "classic" Space Marine things (I actually don't really like Bikes, and have a tenuous relationship with Land Speeders - similarly, I'm not massively keen on Tartaros Armour, and not even fond of beaky helmets!), but I'd never say that they're "not Space Marine" just because I personally don't like them.

jeff white wrote:Let me restate.
You are a supremely unpleasant fanboi.

I am glad to never speak with you and certainly i couldnt stomach a game with you.

Enjoy your restartes Smudge.

Thank you for your contribution, though I'm not sure this is particularly within forum rules?

jeff white wrote:There is the diminishment of the background as parody on contemporary empty ritual and excess.

Okay - where? Where does it say anywhere in the modern lore that Primaris Marines don't take part in the same rituals and practices as their Firstborn brethren?

Oh you are not trying to be pleasant Smudge. You are trying to pick a fight. Be honest about this at least... or now does bad faith make you play victim?

You seem to be a troll. Shifting points around.

The era is no longer gothic once it advances into a new Renaissance with flying tanks and super thunder I-marines...
This is the diminished background imho. A loss imho. And the general aesthetic is in some cases of characters especially retained but flying tanks and plasma that doesnt kill you and so polished new restartes shininess when the empire has been on a knifes edge and fading for so long just screams mary sue when the old aesthetic was dirty space crusade with patched ip armor and stretched supply lines or broken due the rift...

The whole religious angle is bull gak. Many chapters are atheistic. They know that the Emperor was a man, not a god, and don't worship him or pray to their guns. The non cult legions are mostly the same, they don't worship chaos, they merely use it as a tool.

jeff white wrote:Oh you are not trying to be pleasant Smudge. You are trying to pick a fight. Be honest about this at least... or now does bad faith make you play victim?

Why would I want to pick a fight? I'm trying to understand your dislike of Primaris and blatant double standard you hold them to.

You dislike Primaris for being plain-armoured, but don't dislike normal Marines when they have less ornamentation.
You hate Tacticool, but are fine with Scouts.
You claim that Primaris Marines don't observe proper rituals and rites, but can't/don't provide any evidence to support it!
Why on earth would I care so much to pick a fight?

You seem to be a troll. Shifting points around.

What points have I shifted around? What goalposts have I moved? I've only been asking you questions, and asking why you don't seem to have consistent opinions.

The era is no longer gothic once it advances into a new Renaissance with flying tanks and super thunder I-marines...

Why isn't it Gothic any more? Were tanks even a *part* of the Gothic era? Why would having flying tanks suddenly be the deciding factor? What about the flying speeders and other anti-grav units the Space Marines had? And what do flying tanks have to do with an Intercessor?

If you only hated the tanks, by all means, say that - but not every Primaris Marine is a flying tank. If you have a problem with all of them, point us to the problem, without also incriminating the Firstborn Astartes you claim to love.

 Bellerophon wrote:
What will I do with my old tactical marines? Proudly keep them in the display case of course! I'm still very fond of Firstborn marines.

I'm always surprised at how much vitriol can get thrown around in these Primaris vs Firstborn debates. For the most part, I'm not a Primaris fan. I like the basic Mark X armour, gravis is OK, I dislike Phobos (for me it's more the leg armour than the tacticool that's particularly offputting about those), I don't really like the design of the dread/warsuit, and the grav tanks are perhaps the worst offenders (I don't like the design, and I'm also a firm believer that the only anti-grav vehicles space marines should have are Land Speeders, unless your name happens to be Sammael). But I'm not going to try to argue that something about the designs are inherently un-space marine, just that I personally don't like a large proportion of them. I recognise that the sculpts are technically better than the old ones, and I generally like the poses better. But I still prefer the design aesthetic of most of the old marine units. I remain a firm fan of terminators even though their shoulders are the same height as their heads...

I guess I also find it harder than most to let go of the idea that a 40k-era marine battle company is 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads and 2 Devastator squads. It's probably better for GW to leave that behind, because the more uncertain chapter organisation we've got now is better for making your collection what you want it to be, rather than what the Codex Astartes wants it to be. Although, I personally wouldn't mix Firstborn and Primaris units. I just think it looks weird. So my Salamanders army is entirely Firstborn. I've got the Primaris from Dark Imperium and Wake the Dead - coincidentally the Primaris sculpts that I like better, so that's handy. But when I finally get around to working on them I'm not going to add them to my Salamanders, I'll make them a different chapter entirely. My Sallies can be slightly historical pre-Gathering Storm, and whatever chapter I pick for the Primaris can be 'current'. But it might be a while, because even though they're my favourite of the Primaris sculpts they don't excite me as much as my other projects.

I feel you on the loss of the coherent battle company. I was shuffling minis around the other day to see what it would take to get a second (mixed) company on the shelf, and the project just kinda petered out. The old format gave you solid goals to strive for. Did I need 6 tactical squads? No way. It’s a rare list that I use 3, and that’s going all the way back to 3rd ed. But do I have 6 on the shelf? Yes. OK, that’s a bit of a lie, I have 9, but 6 are ranked up with the rest of my battle company. But when thinking about what I’d need to buy and build to get another company? No goal, no prize. And no purchases planned. My primaris will just grow organically, unit by unit. If and when I get 100ish guys in roughly a 3:1:1 ratio of basic/fast/shooty they might get moved to their own shelf.

Playing CSM and Death Guard and initially I still fielded the old models. But especially with Chaos Marines and Plague Marines I did it less and less over the last years since I got more and more models. Especially Plague Marines, first there was that Battleforce, then someone gave me the Easy to Build box, then there was Conquest... and if they stand right next to each other the old Plague Marines are really ugly in my eyes.

But I guess it's an easy choice for CSM since it's just a matter of taste, actual unit values are the same. Not envying you loyalists out there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have. The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

Tootles Smudge.

Except you are just making stuff up in your head. Nothing about the Manlet Marines says anything you've been saying. You're wrong. So get over it.

Then you have not read what i have written and rather also squeal at two pictures and scouts.

Another reason to hate restartes...

I did. You made these claims about Knights In Space and Gothic Feel only to be quickly dismissed when shown that a majority of the Marine models don't actually have those elements overall, and then you make up stuff about Primaris looking at social media for whatever reason. It isn't even being subjectively wrong, you're objectively wrong.

Most? Nope. Not been shown that.
I dont use social media for 40k.
Even if you want to focus on gothic armor the single foto shown does not represent crusader aesthetic inherited early in the period most reflected in templars and others including dark angels and grey knights and so on.
Here look again. Ask yourself where in this timeline you see an intercessor? End era leading into renaissance
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/08/1a/4e081a85f23f9fe3295b0267712a9909.jpg

Hey folks, I kindly ask one and all to keep things polite and on topic. Thanks!

jeff white wrote:This is the diminished background imho. A loss imho.

Okay - what part of the background is dimished? Can you point to explicit parts where you feel it is diminished?

flying tanks

Space Marines have had Land Speeders since their inception. The AdMech now also have skimmer tanks. The Custodes have them too. Are they all now heretics and besmirch the lore?

and plasma that doesnt kill you

EVERYONE, including old plasma guns, have this function now. That's not a "Primaris weapons don't overheat" thing, that's a "the game rules now let you fire safe plasma regardless". If Primaris Marines had come out in 7th, their plasma guns would overheat just like everyone else's.

and so polished new restartes shininess when the empire has been on a knifes edge and fading for so long just screams mary sue when the old aesthetic was dirty space crusade with patched ip armor and stretched supply lines or broken due the rift...

Hang on, so now you're saying the old aesthetic WASN'T ornate and majestic and embellished, but was actually "patched up and supply stretched thin"? Those sound like two VERY different things to me.
This brings me to my point - CONSISTENCY. You aren't being consistent.
What is the old aesthetic? Is it dirty, patched up armour? Is it ornate quasi-religious walking churches? Is it okay to be plain armoured? Is it okay to have less armour and wear cloth padding and no helmet, with tacticool pouches and supply kits?

Gadzilla666 wrote: The whole religious angle is bull gak. Many chapters are atheistic. They know that the Emperor was a man, not a god, and don't worship him or pray to their guns. The non cult legions are mostly the same, they don't worship chaos, they merely use it as a tool.

Eh, yes and no. While most Chapters aren't subservient to the Imperial Cult, they are religious. However, their religion comes from more internal Chapter cults and beliefs, and in the form of catachism and in the Emperor and Primarch. They might not see the Emperor as a God, but they do venerate and essentially ask for his blessing. Otherwise, how would Chaplains work? We see plenty of times Space Marines applying oils and unguents and prayers as they prepare their weaponry - ritual actions. Even the most logical and "rational" Chapters still abide by this - even though they don't worship the Emperor as a God, as such.

And no, before anyone say anything, there is no indication that Primaris Marines break this tradition in any way.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nevelon wrote:

 Bellerophon wrote:
I guess I also find it harder than most to let go of the idea that a 40k-era marine battle company is 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads and 2 Devastator squads. It's probably better for GW to leave that behind, because the more uncertain chapter organisation we've got now is better for making your collection what you want it to be, rather than what the Codex Astartes wants it to be. Although, I personally wouldn't mix Firstborn and Primaris units. I just think it looks weird. So my Salamanders army is entirely Firstborn. I've got the Primaris from Dark Imperium and Wake the Dead - coincidentally the Primaris sculpts that I like better, so that's handy. But when I finally get around to working on them I'm not going to add them to my Salamanders, I'll make them a different chapter entirely. My Sallies can be slightly historical pre-Gathering Storm, and whatever chapter I pick for the Primaris can be 'current'. But it might be a while, because even though they're my favourite of the Primaris sculpts they don't excite me as much as my other projects.

I feel you on the loss of the coherent battle company. I was shuffling minis around the other day to see what it would take to get a second (mixed) company on the shelf, and the project just kinda petered out. The old format gave you solid goals to strive for. Did I need 6 tactical squads? No way. It’s a rare list that I use 3, and that’s going all the way back to 3rd ed. But do I have 6 on the shelf? Yes. OK, that’s a bit of a lie, I have 9, but 6 are ranked up with the rest of my battle company. But when thinking about what I’d need to buy and build to get another company? No goal, no prize. And no purchases planned. My primaris will just grow organically, unit by unit. If and when I get 100ish guys in roughly a 3:1:1 ratio of basic/fast/shooty they might get moved to their own shelf.

My Primaris homebrew still typically sticks to the Battle Company formula, but in a variant way when it comes to the reserve companies.

I base the Companies on the standard 6x Battleline, 2x Close Support, 2x Fire Support method, and so my Battle Companies are typically your standard Intercessor/Infiltrator core, Inceptor/Reiver/Suppressor Close Support (I count Suppressors as Close Support, given their jump packs), and Aggressor/Hellblaster/Eliminator Fire Support. Nothing too special, that's largely what the Codex outlines.
My Reserve Companies, however, still stick to the general 6:2:2 formula. In my 10th Company, I have it ONLY with Phobos Armour, so 6x Infiltrators, 2x Reivers, and 2x Eliminators. Then, my 8th and 9th Companies take similar approaches, but with the armour type being the determining factor. So, my 9th Company would be 6x Hellblasters, 2x Eliminators and 2x Aggressors, having a mix of Tacticus, Phobos, and Gravis armours.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote:This is the diminished background imho. A loss imho.

Okay - what part of the background is dimished? Can you point to explicit parts where you feel it is diminished?

flying tanks

Space Marines have had Land Speeders since their inception. The AdMech now also have skimmer tanks. The Custodes have them too. Are they all now heretics and besmirch the lore?

and plasma that doesnt kill you

EVERYONE, including old plasma guns, have this function now. That's not a "Primaris weapons don't overheat" thing, that's a "the game rules now let you fire safe plasma regardless". If Primaris Marines had come out in 7th, their plasma guns would overheat just like everyone else's.

and so polished new restartes shininess when the empire has been on a knifes edge and fading for so long just screams mary sue when the old aesthetic was dirty space crusade with patched ip armor and stretched supply lines or broken due the rift...

Hang on, so now you're saying the old aesthetic WASN'T ornate and majestic and embellished, but was actually "patched up and supply stretched thin"? Those sound like two VERY different things to me.
This brings me to my point - CONSISTENCY. You aren't being consistent.
What is the old aesthetic? Is it dirty, patched up armour? Is it ornate quasi-religious walking churches? Is it okay to be plain armoured? Is it okay to have less armour and wear cloth padding and no helmet, with tacticool pouches and supply kits?

Gadzilla666 wrote: The whole religious angle is bull gak. Many chapters are atheistic. They know that the Emperor was a man, not a god, and don't worship him or pray to their guns. The non cult legions are mostly the same, they don't worship chaos, they merely use it as a tool.

Eh, yes and no. While most Chapters aren't subservient to the Imperial Cult, they are religious. However, their religion comes from more internal Chapter cults and beliefs, and in the form of catachism and in the Emperor and Primarch. They might not see the Emperor as a God, but they do venerate and essentially ask for his blessing. Otherwise, how would Chaplains work? We see plenty of times Space Marines applying oils and unguents and prayers as they prepare their weaponry - ritual actions. Even the most logical and "rational" Chapters still abide by this - even though they don't worship the Emperor as a God, as such.

And no, before anyone say anything, there is no indication that Primaris Marines break this tradition in any way.

It is the fact that science has made plasma foolproof that is further evidence of a Cawlian Renaissance that pushes context out if gothic era.. space crusader aesthetic diminishes as a result... not clear?
But there is nothing especially ritual holy warrior seeming about tacticool restartes now is there? Private religious practice is difficult to represent and maybe this is why tacticool looks so not space crusadey at all and very techie I-marine instead...

 jeff white wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
No Smudge i have. The era is not represented in primaris units. Simply isnt. Many of us are saying this and you act like it is an argument you can win right or wrong ... it isnt.

The move to a new era of heretical science should be proof enough but you want to look at two pictures and squeal "but scouts"!..

Go on then Smudge. Love your restartes. I wont be buying any. Lower demand means more for you for less.

Tootles Smudge.

Except you are just making stuff up in your head. Nothing about the Manlet Marines says anything you've been saying. You're wrong. So get over it.

Then you have not read what i have written and rather also squeal at two pictures and scouts.

Another reason to hate restartes...

I did. You made these claims about Knights In Space and Gothic Feel only to be quickly dismissed when shown that a majority of the Marine models don't actually have those elements overall, and then you make up stuff about Primaris looking at social media for whatever reason. It isn't even being subjectively wrong, you're objectively wrong.

Most? Nope. Not been shown that.
I dont use social media for 40k.
Even if you want to focus on gothic armor the single foto shown does not represent crusader aesthetic inherited early in the period most reflected in templars and others including dark angels and grey knights and so on.
Here look again. Ask yourself where in this timeline you see an intercessor? End era leading into renaissance

The former have more of the elements you want than these:

Oh noes, those are the units that Dark Angels are KNOWN for too!

I think Fabius having the ability to harvest the primaris marines to create some unholy crazy CSMs is the only good thing about primaris, fluff wise. But most of the CSM force is still from the HH era or at least much of it. It’s not like Kahn and Lucius can cross the rubicon is it. Although some primaris may turn rogue or to chaos these won’t be born of the original legions and one presumes the gene seed of the traitor legions isn’t being used for primaris.

So the rule going forward should be that you can include primaris units in your CSM army but you need the rules from codex space marine and Codex CSM would need to maintain the old marine stats.

mrFickle wrote:
I think Fabius having the ability to harvest the primaris marines to create some unholy crazy CSMs is the only good thing about primaris, fluff wise. But most of the CSM force is still from the HH era or at least much of it. It’s not like Kahn and Lucius can cross the rubicon is it. Although some primaris may turn rogue or to chaos these won’t be born of the original legions and one presumes the gene seed of the traitor legions isn’t being used for primaris.

So the rule going forward should be that you can include primaris units in your CSM army but you need the rules from codex space marine and Codex CSM would need to maintain the old marine stats.

Well Kharn got an updated model at least, but his rules weren't updated to be, well, good.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: The whole religious angle is bull gak. Many chapters are atheistic. They know that the Emperor was a man, not a god, and don't worship him or pray to their guns. The non cult legions are mostly the same, they don't worship chaos, they merely use it as a tool.

Eh, yes and no. While most Chapters aren't subservient to the Imperial Cult, they are religious. However, their religion comes from more internal Chapter cults and beliefs, and in the form of catachism and in the Emperor and Primarch. They might not see the Emperor as a God, but they do venerate and essentially ask for his blessing. Otherwise, how would Chaplains work? We see plenty of times Space Marines applying oils and unguents and prayers as they prepare their weaponry - ritual actions. Even the most logical and "rational" Chapters still abide by this - even though they don't worship the Emperor as a God, as such.

And no, before anyone say anything, there is no indication that Primaris Marines break this tradition in any way.

Maybe, but my point was that many chapters have no use for all the religious iconography that some people seem to insist on. Chapter symbols and charms maybe, but not stained glass or cathedrals. Ultramarines think the ecclesierchy is against the Imperial Creed, and Night Lords think Word Bearers and World Eaters are religious nuts and psychos. Religious iconography isn't a requirement for space marines, primaris, old marines, chaos, whatever.

 jeff white wrote:
It is the fact that science has made plasma foolproof that is further evidence of a Cawlian Renaissance that pushes context out if gothic era.. space crusader aesthetic diminishes as a result... not clear?

EVERYONE'S plasma is safe now. Including Chaos Marines, who Cawl has had no way of helping. It's not some kind of "every plasma gun has been fixed, from plasma pistols to plasma cannons, how dare Cawl do this" - it's just GW changing the rules of their game, in the same way that Overwatch was added between 5th and 6th. There wasn't some kind of revelation between 999.M41 and 999999.M41 where soldiers suddenly realised they could shoot at charging enemies. It's just a sweeping change to the whole ruleset, like how Blasts and Templates don't exist, or how models have Move stats, but no Initiative.

But there is nothing especially ritual holy warrior seeming about tacticool restartes now is there?

It's no different than the bare Tactical Marines or Scouts I've mentioned earlier. We only know those particular models/units are ritualistic holy warriors because we've read the background. Primaris? There's no reason not to believe that they follow all the same conventions - and considering that many Primaris, even Phobos units (like Eliminators), have various trappings and votive markings on them, it's further reinforced that they follow the same creeds and practices as their older brethren.

Private religious practice is difficult to represent and maybe this is why tacticool looks so not space crusadey at all and very techie I-marine instead...

Again, I redirect to the Silver Templars artwork posted in this thread, of an Intercessor decked out in tabards, seals, and hanging bits. That artwork looks more "space-crusadey" than many of the Tactical Marine artworks I've seen.

If your issue is with Phobos not looking "space crusadey", then please understand that Phobos Marines are not the entirety of the Primaris range, and are more akin to Scouts. You wouldn't judge all of the Firstborn from their Scouts. If you have an issue with only the Phobos Marines, make it clear that your issue is with them, and them alone.

 jeff white wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote:This is the diminished background imho. A loss imho.

Okay - what part of the background is dimished? Can you point to explicit parts where you feel it is diminished?

flying tanks

Space Marines have had Land Speeders since their inception. The AdMech now also have skimmer tanks. The Custodes have them too. Are they all now heretics and besmirch the lore?

and plasma that doesnt kill you

EVERYONE, including old plasma guns, have this function now. That's not a "Primaris weapons don't overheat" thing, that's a "the game rules now let you fire safe plasma regardless". If Primaris Marines had come out in 7th, their plasma guns would overheat just like everyone else's.

and so polished new restartes shininess when the empire has been on a knifes edge and fading for so long just screams mary sue when the old aesthetic was dirty space crusade with patched ip armor and stretched supply lines or broken due the rift...

Hang on, so now you're saying the old aesthetic WASN'T ornate and majestic and embellished, but was actually "patched up and supply stretched thin"? Those sound like two VERY different things to me.
This brings me to my point - CONSISTENCY. You aren't being consistent.
What is the old aesthetic? Is it dirty, patched up armour? Is it ornate quasi-religious walking churches? Is it okay to be plain armoured? Is it okay to have less armour and wear cloth padding and no helmet, with tacticool pouches and supply kits?

Gadzilla666 wrote: The whole religious angle is bull gak. Many chapters are atheistic. They know that the Emperor was a man, not a god, and don't worship him or pray to their guns. The non cult legions are mostly the same, they don't worship chaos, they merely use it as a tool.

Eh, yes and no. While most Chapters aren't subservient to the Imperial Cult, they are religious. However, their religion comes from more internal Chapter cults and beliefs, and in the form of catachism and in the Emperor and Primarch. They might not see the Emperor as a God, but they do venerate and essentially ask for his blessing. Otherwise, how would Chaplains work? We see plenty of times Space Marines applying oils and unguents and prayers as they prepare their weaponry - ritual actions. Even the most logical and "rational" Chapters still abide by this - even though they don't worship the Emperor as a God, as such.

And no, before anyone say anything, there is no indication that Primaris Marines break this tradition in any way.

It is the fact that science has made plasma foolproof that is further evidence of a Cawlian Renaissance that pushes context out if gothic era.. space crusader aesthetic diminishes as a result... not clear?
But there is nothing especially ritual holy warrior seeming about tacticool restartes now is there? Private religious practice is difficult to represent and maybe this is why tacticool looks so not space crusadey at all and very techie I-marine instead...

Plasma didn't become foolproof because of story. It became safe because the current player base cant handle their models incinerating themselves. And so story shifted to reflect the rules.

BTw, for someone who said they weren't going to talk to Smudge any more you sure keep on replying to him.....

I tried to use bits from the new CSM kit to semi-update some old CSM. It ended up being a massive amount of time and parts totally wasted.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I tried to use bits from the new CSM kit to semi-update some old CSM. It ended up being a massive amount of time and parts totally wasted.

Yeah, I couldn't see that working well. The old torso and legs just don't hold up that well. I made use of the older CSM heads and a few of the old pauldrons for the new ones. Even then, I am glad I went Black Legion to help hide how soft the detail is on the old bits when combined with the new ones. I think it works well enough done sparingly. One of the biggest complaints I could poteintally have with the new CSM kit is the lack of horned helms in a similar vein to the old ones. Realistically, I not that bothered by it as I didn't really like the that much on the old models and only added them to the new ones to stretch out variation.

ccs wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

jeff white wrote:This is the diminished background imho. A loss imho.

Okay - what part of the background is dimished? Can you point to explicit parts where you feel it is diminished?

flying tanks

Space Marines have had Land Speeders since their inception. The AdMech now also have skimmer tanks. The Custodes have them too. Are they all now heretics and besmirch the lore?

and plasma that doesnt kill you

EVERYONE, including old plasma guns, have this function now. That's not a "Primaris weapons don't overheat" thing, that's a "the game rules now let you fire safe plasma regardless". If Primaris Marines had come out in 7th, their plasma guns would overheat just like everyone else's.

and so polished new restartes shininess when the empire has been on a knifes edge and fading for so long just screams mary sue when the old aesthetic was dirty space crusade with patched ip armor and stretched supply lines or broken due the rift...

Hang on, so now you're saying the old aesthetic WASN'T ornate and majestic and embellished, but was actually "patched up and supply stretched thin"? Those sound like two VERY different things to me.
This brings me to my point - CONSISTENCY. You aren't being consistent.
What is the old aesthetic? Is it dirty, patched up armour? Is it ornate quasi-religious walking churches? Is it okay to be plain armoured? Is it okay to have less armour and wear cloth padding and no helmet, with tacticool pouches and supply kits?

Gadzilla666 wrote: The whole religious angle is bull gak. Many chapters are atheistic. They know that the Emperor was a man, not a god, and don't worship him or pray to their guns. The non cult legions are mostly the same, they don't worship chaos, they merely use it as a tool.

Eh, yes and no. While most Chapters aren't subservient to the Imperial Cult, they are religious. However, their religion comes from more internal Chapter cults and beliefs, and in the form of catachism and in the Emperor and Primarch. They might not see the Emperor as a God, but they do venerate and essentially ask for his blessing. Otherwise, how would Chaplains work? We see plenty of times Space Marines applying oils and unguents and prayers as they prepare their weaponry - ritual actions. Even the most logical and "rational" Chapters still abide by this - even though they don't worship the Emperor as a God, as such.

And no, before anyone say anything, there is no indication that Primaris Marines break this tradition in any way.

It is the fact that science has made plasma foolproof that is further evidence of a Cawlian Renaissance that pushes context out if gothic era.. space crusader aesthetic diminishes as a result... not clear?
But there is nothing especially ritual holy warrior seeming about tacticool restartes now is there? Private religious practice is difficult to represent and maybe this is why tacticool looks so not space crusadey at all and very techie I-marine instead...

Plasma didn't become foolproof because of story. It became safe because the current player base cant handle their models incinerating themselves. And so story shifted to reflect the rules.

BTw, for someone who said they weren't going to talk to Smudge any more you sure keep on replying to him.....

Actually safe mode was added because Plasma always had that issue on top of being top expensive for its purpose, which is why everyone went with Melta and Grav. We can argue now perhaps Plasma is just a little too cheap, but Melta and Flamers are too expensive.

I just want to pop in to say Dual Mode Plasma is actually a throwback to 2nd edition when there was a difference between Imperial and Chaos Plasma weaponry.

I agree it's still too cheap. Plasma should either be lowered down to S6/S7 or make overcharging grant extra AP and Damage but no S bonus.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually safe mode was added because Plasma always had that issue on top of being top expensive for its purpose, which is why everyone went with Melta and Grav. We can argue now perhaps Plasma is just a little too cheap, but Melta and Flamers are too expensive.

I do miss melta weapons both playing Primaris and CSM. I have old Chaos Termicide squads that I want to break out (even in the 8th edition version) every now and again and be at least kinda close to scary as it used to be and not feel like an utter waste of points. It does surprise me that GW never did bring down the points for melta weapons after years of plasma just being better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Brutus, seeing as you posted some pictures of "proper Space Marines", what's your opinion on this one?

As you can see, no purity seals, no skulls, no scrolls, banners, pendants, nothing! Well, except for the chest aquila (which most Primaris have) and a teeny scroll on his bolter (which, again, most Primaris have).
So, I guess this isn't a "real Space Marine"?

Brutus_Apex wrote:

Also, Brutus, seeing as you posted some pictures of "proper Space Marines", what's your opinion on this one?

As you can see, no purity seals, no skulls, no scrolls, banners, pendants, nothing! Well, except for the chest aquila (which most Primaris have) and a teeny scroll on his bolter (which, again, most Primaris have).
So, I guess this isn't a "real Space Marine"?

Personally I do not like it. Way way too bland. And although I recognize that it is an iconic space marine model, I personally would never field one like that. Not in 40K anyway.

Right, thank you. I appreciate your consistency and honesty, and I'm glad you didn't try and excuse this bland Marine just because it's older.

However, I do need to point out that, even though it's bland, it *is* still a Space Marine, and the perfect example of Space Marines not needing to be dressed up to the nines and embellished. In fact, the vast majority of Space Marines core units (Tacticals, Devastators, Assaults, Bikers, etc) have been like this, maybe with a small purity seal here or there, but your basic Space Marines have nearly *always* been like this model. It's only been Veterans and explicitly more blinged up Chapters (like the Black Templars) who go all out on the decorations and ornate markings. Expecting Primaris to suddenly buck that trend when historically Space Marines core units have been on the under-blinged side feels like a strange expectation.

Deathwing knights are more of what I'm looking for.

TBH it's always been a bit of a disappointment to me that standard marines carry bolters instead of chainswords and stormshields.

I highly dislike most of generic space marine range until you start getting into the super ornate stuff. In the past I've used sternguard/vanguard marines just for my basic guys because they have more stuff on them.

Honestly, it sounds more just like you don't really like any outside of Space Marines being ornate, Primaris or not. So when you comment "I hate Primaris, they're not ornate", that's not *really* a Primaris problem, that's just a Space Marine design problem across the majority of the range.
I'm not saying you're not entitled to your own preferences, you absolutely are, and where's the fun in 40k if you can't make and paint and play your models the way you like - but it would be like me saying "I hate the Tau, they don't have any melee, and they're not a human faction".

Basically, Primaris Marines aren't the problem. Your problem is that Space Marines across the board aren't more ornate, but unfortunately, Space Marines do, and have, come in a wide range of styles, from fully embellished to 'tacticool', and GW strike a middle ground in their core Space Marine designs, leaving Marines as empty as possible so players can convert to their hearts content.

The new Primaris stuff is proportionally better, I'll give it that. But there's nothing exciting about them at all. They're so bland.

Again, they're just taking design cues and styles from existing Space Marines. It's not like they're suddenly more bland than everything else. And, as you've said, you feel the same way about bland Firstborn Marines.
It's not a Primaris problem, it's a Bland Marine problem, in your eyes.

I feel like they knocked Sisters of Battle and Custodes out of the park, they just nailed the 40K aesthetic for me there. To see Marines get the opposite treatment has been a huge disappointment for me.

Custodes and Sisters have always been depicted and shown in model form to be ornate. Space Marines, on the other hand, have always had a wide range of looks, from heavily embellished Black Templars, to tacticool Raptors, and GW has consistently depicted their basic units with less ornamentation. At the risk of repeating myself, Primaris don't do anything new here that hasn't already been done. Your problem isn't with Primaris explicitly, it's with Space Marines in general that aren't how you believe they should look.