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 Overread wrote:


GW has already brought back Aeronautica; Titanicus; Necromunda and Bloodbowl. Battlefleet Gothic was rumoured to be in the works but got changed. Meanwhile they've had both Warcry and Killteam made into their own games and even added Underworlds and Warammer Quest.



Man O War could very well make a return and AoS is fantastic for it - there are vast seas and more than enough scope to give each race its own fleet of ships to play with as well as a hoard of monsters and beasties of the depths. Right now it really depends if GW "wants" to or not.

Yeah I wouldn't rule MoW out, I mean when Necro came back with 6 plastic gangs (now 8!) anything seems possible. The main thing stopping MoW is that FW just has so much on their plate now and all of it seems to be successful and sustained. I think the new BFG was due this year but I doubt we'll see it.

On the GW side we have War Cry and Blackstone Fortress and probably a few other games I'm forgetting. Right now GW is sustaining as many games as I can ever remember them having.

 Overread wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Sadly I think quirky games like Man o War are a thing GW have moved away from. I'd love to be wrong, but I just can't envision modern GW making an AoS equivalent.

GW has already brought back Aeronautica; Titanicus; Necromunda and Bloodbowl. Battlefleet Gothic was rumoured to be in the works but got changed. Meanwhile they've had both Warcry and Killteam made into their own games and even added Underworlds and Warammer Quest.



Man O War could very well make a return and AoS is fantastic for it - there are vast seas and more than enough scope to give each race its own fleet of ships to play with as well as a hoard of monsters and beasties of the depths. Right now it really depends if GW "wants" to or not.

Yes, but none of those games are 'quirky'. Man o War was very quiirky. GW have moved away from their comedic. I'm not saying GW aren't about making new games, or revisiting old games... just those that fit into the aesthetic of their two main settings.

Man O War doesn't have to be quirky. In general what most people want when they want Man O War is sea battles in a high fantasy setting. AoS is chock full to the brim and overflowing with options in that regard.

Heck the fact that no race has a single nation means that there isn't even a single "land locked" army. Every army can field some kind of sea/sky-faring force.




Personally I think it hinges on how well the AT and AN games do. If they do really well to the point where Gw starts to add more Xenos (esp to AT) and then consider doing Epic once again; then games like Warmaster and Man O War have more chance of returning in some form for AoS.



I think one big difference is that in the past GW was gunning either for short term one off projects (eg Dreadfleet) or they were going for the biggest and boldest sellers (more marines?).
I think today GW realises that going for the biggest sellers is only good in the short term. In the long term it actually harms core areas of the business because you end up with all the eggs in one basket and a vulnerable bubble that's built around a very limited portion of the market. Which results in the rest bleeding out to other companies.


I think today they realise that sure Bloodbowl and armies other than Marines might not be as big a seller; but they are still healthy profitable sellers. Furthermore supporting a broader range increases customer retention and loyalty which in turn increases gamer club sizes and recruitment. It directly feeds into generating more interest for new customers.



One thing GW has a very strong hand on is the idea of growing their market. I think in the past they, again, went for that whale of brand new customers; today I think they've far more realisation that not only do broader ranges of games attract more new customers; but also retain older ones who are often essential in guiding new people into the game. If all the oldies at the club are going off to play Kings of War - that's where the newbies are going to head too.

 stonehorse wrote:

Yes, but none of those games are 'quirky'. Man o War was very quiirky. GW have moved away from their comedic. I'm not saying GW aren't about making new games, or revisiting old games... just those that fit into the aesthetic of their two main settings.

Ah got it. Yeah any new MoW game would definitely have a different style and feel than the 90s version.

 Overread wrote:
If all the oldies at the club are going off to play Kings of War - that's where the newbies are going to head too.

GW has a tendancy to draw out games with all the micro rules, which is also a big off put to new players i find, who instantly pick up and understand KoW, so anyone exposed to KoW instantly goes off to buy an army, GW kind of has to grow on them a while first.

A return of MoW would be awesome, i wouldnt want the original rules though, they certainly need a good refresh, to be honest even Battlefleet gothic might be pretty awesome.

I'm no expert on the Age of Sigmar but I do know one thing. If the Stormcast get a fleet their main ship will be...

The Thunderfish Gunboat

Vanguard miniatures really needs to look into doing Man O War sculpts. They hire out to freelancers too.....

thedespot29 wrote:
I run a small miniature company, and for the past couple of years have been compiling concepts and sculpts to release a fantasy naval wargame with miniatures useable as proxies for Man o War. The work on the rules have stalled somewhat of late though.

I have 5 more fleets sculpted that have not been released yet. Being a one-man shop, I have limited resources, but a couple more fleets will likely see the light of day this year.

Orc war galey example:

Oh man, color me interested!!!

Wolfboy wrote:
anything similar out there, or is it being remade?

the set costs a fortune on eBay, i played it once in my youth but it was out of production even then!

Depends what the OP is after. If its just ship combat games then there are a few good historical ones out there. Oak and Iron springs to mind.

I think you could modify Osprey's Fighting Sail to work too.

thedespot29 wrote:
I run a small miniature company, and for the past couple of years have been compiling concepts and sculpts to release a fantasy naval wargame with miniatures useable as proxies for Man o War. The work on the rules have stalled somewhat of late though.

https://www.microworldgames.com/collections/seas-of-fate/FN_DWARF

I got as far as releasing the first fleet's worth of miniatures to use as proxies in order to fund further development.







I have 5 more fleets sculpted that have not been released yet. Being a one-man shop, I have limited resources, but a couple more fleets will likely see the light of day this year.

Orc war galey example:

I have to say they are nice miniatures. Even though I do play Dwarves, not a fan of them in a fleet action. Regardless I would be interested in the fleets that you make up in other races.

I have to ask, how fun was playing the game? I am fairly interested in this game, maybe pulling the ultimate heresy and making it into an AoS game...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I'm no expert on the Age of Sigmar but I do know one thing. If the Stormcast get a fleet their main ship will be...

The Thunderfish Gunboat

Nope Stormfish Thunderboat....

Oh no... Microworld what have you done??? My poor future wallet

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I have to ask, how fun was playing the game? I am fairly interested in this game, maybe pulling the ultimate heresy and making it into an AoS game...

I actually quite enjoyed it, was before everything was abstracted and simplified to bland mush, without trying to be a "simulation", never had much beyond the starter and a few extra bits as not many locally played it, but I enjoyed it

I truly miss just putting my Black Arc of Naggoroth for the dark elves on the table. Everything else of my fleet was inside the Arc. My opponents never knew what support ships were coming out of it. I wish I was able to grab a Chaos Dwarf fleet before GW dropped the game. The Chaos Dwarves had some crazy rules too.

This could be of interest: https://www.manticgames.com/news/kings-of-war-armada-the-game-of-epic-naval-warfare/

and

https://www.manticgames.com/news/armada-your-questions-answered/

Yes, interesting. Now all they need is a Warmaster equivalent and they have done what GW couldn't manage!

MMMmmmmmmmmmm! Said the Skeksis.

That looks rather good.

 Easy E wrote:
Yes, interesting. Now all they need is a Warmaster equivalent and they have done what GW couldn't manage!

That would be... enticing. There are some really great 10mm digital sculptors out there supported by the Warmaster: Revolution community. They'd be great for Mantic's stuff.

And thanks for resurrecting this thread. I wasn't aware that Microworld was going to be bringing out more fleets. Looking forward to seeing those Orcs. I've been playing Man O War recently and it's good, straightforward fun.

Well, maybe except for when the Skaven ships work correctly. That's not so much fun.

 Easy E wrote:
Yes, interesting. Now all they need is a Warmaster equivalent and they have done what GW couldn't manage!

At first my thought was "Yes, Mantic should be foolish enough to try to launch and sustain a version of the GW game that set the record for fastest birth to hospice move in their brand history.", but then I thought that maybe Mantic would be intelligent enough to actually add something to the game that proper KOW/WFB doesn't bring to the table. GW certainly wasn't intelligent enough to.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Yes, interesting. Now all they need is a Warmaster equivalent and they have done what GW couldn't manage!

At first my thought was "Yes, Mantic should be foolish enough to try to launch and sustain a version of the GW game that set the record for fastest birth to hospice move in their brand history.", but then I thought that maybe Mantic would be intelligent enough to actually add something to the game that proper KOW/WFB doesn't bring to the table. GW certainly wasn't intelligent enough to.

Did it die faster than Inquisitor?

Hrm. I saw I think 1 game of =I= being played at Games Day and never saw Warmaster so I guess it did.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Yes, interesting. Now all they need is a Warmaster equivalent and they have done what GW couldn't manage!

At first my thought was "Yes, Mantic should be foolish enough to try to launch and sustain a version of the GW game that set the record for fastest birth to hospice move in their brand history.", but then I thought that maybe Mantic would be intelligent enough to actually add something to the game that proper KOW/WFB doesn't bring to the table. GW certainly wasn't intelligent enough to.

Warmaster rolled out when they all ready were planning to axe Specialist Games as stand-alone games so..... it was never really set-up for success.

Edit: Warmaster also had a completely different Command and Control mechanism from WHFB. So different because it was a push your luck system with play turning over to your opponent when you failed a command check. This allowed interrupts which WHFB has never allowed as it was strictly IGOUGO.

That new Armada game looks pretty good.

I really enjoyed Man'O'War back in the day, so if they have captured that feel of naval warfare with fantasy bits thrown in then it will hopefully be a lot of fun.

 Easy E wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Yes, interesting. Now all they need is a Warmaster equivalent and they have done what GW couldn't manage!

At first my thought was "Yes, Mantic should be foolish enough to try to launch and sustain a version of the GW game that set the record for fastest birth to hospice move in their brand history.", but then I thought that maybe Mantic would be intelligent enough to actually add something to the game that proper KOW/WFB doesn't bring to the table. GW certainly wasn't intelligent enough to.

Warmaster rolled out when they all ready were planning to axe Specialist Games as stand-alone games so..... it was never really set-up for success.

Edit: Warmaster also had a completely different Command and Control mechanism from WHFB. So different because it was a push your luck system with play turning over to your opponent when you failed a command check. This allowed interrupts which WHFB has never allowed as it was strictly IGOUGO.

Addressing your second part first: you basically verified that the ONLY things Warmaster offered were a fiddly ruleset and smaller minis.

As far as the first part? GW doesn't make the best business decisions, but they most assuredly wouldn't PURPOSEFULLY launch a game with failure in mind. The game was advertized and pushed, people simply didn't like it.

I never played Warmaster but clearly it added new and enjoyable gameplay dynamics if a bunch of later historical games leaned heavily on its mechanics.

Mantic Games releasing a warmaster-like kind of game is unlikely, because of KoW.

Simply put : since KoW core rules use units as a whole as gaming entities already, it would be redundant to sell a 10 mm mass battle fantasy game...and counterproductive to their 28mm own mass battle fantasy game.

From a gamer's perspective, it opens awesome opportunities. For a company's business, not so much.


About Man O'War, I wonder about the game being that awesome if played nowadays from a pure beginner's point of view. Most of people enjoying playing it are actually veterans knowing the game when it was out. Nostalgy plays a big part here. The rules are old school, with the old way of GW writing rules (I mean it's a bit loose in many fields)...and the ships didn't age that well in my opinion.

Would be nice to have a new release of the game with GW's actual standards. But then...fantasy naval wargames are already a niche in a niche market.

Kings of War already works well in small scale
just use Centimeter instead of Inch and you are done
no need for another rule set to do so

Sarouan wrote:

About Man O'War, I wonder about the game being that awesome if played nowadays from a pure beginner's point of view. Most of people enjoying playing it are actually veterans knowing the game when it was out. Nostalgy plays a big part here. The rules are old school, with the old way of GW writing rules (I mean it's a bit loose in many fields)...and the ships didn't age that well in my opinion.

Would be nice to have a new release of the game with GW's actual standards. But then...fantasy naval wargames are already a niche in a niche market.

I went to take a look at Man o' War specifically because KoW Armada reveal underwhelmed me. Never touched it before, so zero nostalgia glasses here. This is what I found.

It looks pretty damn good at the start. The combat rules are only 14 pages and very clear. Then after the first 2 fleet lists it feels like the author had a mild stroke and can't form a coherent paragraph of rules anymore. At that point it becomes a fairly typical GW product of its time.

The gameplay looks pretty damn amazing to me. It is intuitive, tactically challenging and forges a strong narrative. There's a great battrep here - despite poor filming quality is really stands out as both very exciting and very informative about the rules https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlw0DsoBVFQ

As for models, there are a small handful of very talented artists slowly resculpting the entire range. Some fleets are available digitally for free or very cheaply priced (8€ for a whole faction) or can be bought printed from Etsy for the same kind of prices the models originally went for (4€ battleships, 5€ squadrons). Most original models are also available from a French recaster.

Compared to getting models, the real chore is getting the cardboard components. There are no high-res scans. The spell and upgrade cards have been re-typed with poor spellchecking and poorer formatting but I guess can work. The ship dashboards have illegible color scans but are better printed out from the rulebook scan in black and white. Alternatively, there are high-quality statcards available that are much smaller than the dashboards and assume the use of wet erase markers on sleeved cards instead of placing tokens for damage.

Overall I am very impressed with the game and dead set on printing it out and playing very soon.

Another name to keep an eye on is GRAVETIDE. It's an indy game currently in development and the ruleset is basically a fully modernized Man o' War rewrite with clear rules, streamlined but still very satisfying damage allocation and a wind system that should embarass Mantic and everyone else who struggled and failed to make it speedy and realistic. Their faction offerings aren't great yet (seems to just be different flavours of undead) but I am goading them to write rules for Man o' War factions.

I can also speak as someone who was recently introduced to Man O War. A fellow wargamer in my club has an almost frighteningly massive amount of Man o War ships for all the factions.

The gameplay is fairly easy to learn, although like lord_blackfang said, it's very much early 90's GW writing for the rules, with plenty of rambling and tangents and less focus on accessible rules.

It's definitely not a balanced game, and some factions are better for sustained play than others. For example, I've played Skaven for exactly two games, and I'll probably never touch them again. And flyers, while seemingly a cool addition, don't seem to add much unless they're distinctly overpowered.

But there's a ton of flavor and fun to be had if you don't take it seriously.