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No super doctrine, no unique litany, no unique stratagems, no new relics or traits, a stratagem that will be errata'd out (the doctrine rewind), the old version of Combat Doctrines (so that needs to be errata'd too).

This could have literally been a few lines in the errata.

I didn't realise it was out yet.

I doubt anyone was expecting anything different, honestly.

Wayniac wrote:
I doubt anyone was expecting anything different, honestly.

I was hoping for more. Maybe expecting somewhere in between, but from the preview, sounds like the faction is pretty gimped.

pm713 wrote:
I didn't realise it was out yet.

Nor did I. Looks like it's not actually out until the 2nd of May according to Warhammer Community and all we have at the moment is a preview, which is your standard limited-info preview by the looks of things. Unless BCB has seen the full rules release somewhere else I think it's a bit early to tell how extensive the changes will be for DW. The indications from the article all seem to point to a fairly light-touch update though.

my biggest dissappointment is with social distancing in place it's going to be really hard to get these rules if you don't like digital

Slipspace wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I didn't realise it was out yet.

Nor did I. Looks like it's not actually out until the 2nd of May according to Warhammer Community and all we have at the moment is a preview, which is your standard limited-info preview by the looks of things. Unless BCB has seen the full rules release somewhere else I think it's a bit early to tell how extensive the changes will be for DW. The indications from the article all seem to point to a fairly light-touch update though.

Look in the thread in News and Updates. We have the full update.

Slipspace wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I didn't realise it was out yet.

Nor did I. Looks like it's not actually out until the 2nd of May according to Warhammer Community and all we have at the moment is a preview, which is your standard limited-info preview by the looks of things. Unless BCB has seen the full rules release somewhere else I think it's a bit early to tell how extensive the changes will be for DW. The indications from the article all seem to point to a fairly light-touch update though.

*cough*

 Galas wrote:
Everybody says they want viable snipers but really no one wants viable snipers because what viable snipers means for most people out there are snipers that are popping out 1-2 characters per turn. And thats just toxic.


In other news, the deathwatch rules:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

From Warhamer Community:

* The release date is Saturday the 2nd of May – you’ll find it on shelves of any open stockists from this date, or soon after once they re-open.

* The digital edition will be also available to download on the 2nd of May.

* Many subscribers will still get their copies at the usual time – around the middle of April – though they will probably arrive nearer to the end of April in some places, so don’t worry too much if it doesn’t show up on time.

So unless this has changed there may be a few subscription copies out there at this time.

Who else is looking forward to everyone taking a Patrol of Deathwatch to rewind doctrines again for their Iron Hands until GW errata their errata in 6 months?

Well, there go any hopes I had of the Harlequin update being worth a damn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Who else is looking forward to everyone taking a Patrol of Deathwatch to rewind doctrines again for their Iron Hands until GW errata their errata in 6 months?

Given Deathwatch break superdoctrines, I dont know that a second turn of additional Heavy weapon AP is worth it.

 vipoid wrote:
Well, there go any hopes I had of the Harlequin update being worth a damn.

I really have to ask what did you expect? They're in a white dwarf they aren't going to be high quality.

Although seeing how spectacularly bad DW is I have to wonder why they couldn't have just been slotted into another Marine PA.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No super doctrine, no unique litany, no unique stratagems, no new relics or traits, a stratagem that will be errata'd out (the doctrine rewind), the old version of Combat Doctrines (so that needs to be errata'd too).

This could have literally been a few lines in the errata.

No superdoctrine? They still got normal doctrines, which is more than any of the non-Marine factions got in PA.

No unique litany? See above. Also Blood Angels didn't get one. Dark Angels neither.

No unique stratagems? Again Drukhari and Ynnari didn't get any stratagem (not just not any unique ... none at all).

No new relics or traits? Again, just like Craftworlds, Drukhari, etc..

Stuff that needs to be errata'd? Same for Space Wolves (notwithstanding errata for pretty much any PA).


I don't think the Deathwatch PA-loot is bad. Is it just plain Grey Knight-levels amazing? No, probably not. But it's not even in the bottom 10 worst PA-treatments thus far.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No super doctrine, no unique litany, no unique stratagems, no new relics or traits, a stratagem that will be errata'd out (the doctrine rewind), the old version of Combat Doctrines (so that needs to be errata'd too).

This could have literally been a few lines in the errata.

No superdoctrine? They still got normal doctrines, which is more than any of the non-Marine factions got in PA.

No unique litany? See above. Also Blood Angels didn't get one. Dark Angels neither.

No unique stratagems? Again Drukhari and Ynnari didn't get any stratagem (not just not any unique ... none at all).

No new relics or traits? Again, just like Craftworlds, Drukhari, etc..

Stuff that needs to be errata'd? Same for Space Wolves (notwithstanding errata for pretty much any PA).


I don't think the Deathwatch PA-loot is bad. Is it just plain Grey Knight-levels amazing? No, probably not. But it's not even in the bottom 10 worst PA-treatments thus far.

This is complete bs.

Sterling191 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No super doctrine, no unique litany, no unique stratagems, no new relics or traits, a stratagem that will be errata'd out (the doctrine rewind), the old version of Combat Doctrines (so that needs to be errata'd too).

This could have literally been a few lines in the errata.

No superdoctrine? They still got normal doctrines, which is more than any of the non-Marine factions got in PA.

No unique litany? See above. Also Blood Angels didn't get one. Dark Angels neither.

No unique stratagems? Again Drukhari and Ynnari didn't get any stratagem (not just not any unique ... none at all).

No new relics or traits? Again, just like Craftworlds, Drukhari, etc..

Stuff that needs to be errata'd? Same for Space Wolves (notwithstanding errata for pretty much any PA).


I don't think the Deathwatch PA-loot is bad. Is it just plain Grey Knight-levels amazing? No, probably not. But it's not even in the bottom 10 worst PA-treatments thus far.

This is complete bs.

Is it?

Than show me those Psychic Awakening Ynnari stratagems, Drukhari WL traits, GSC doctrines, etc..

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Than show me those Psychic Awakening Ynnari stratagems, Drukhari WL traits, GSC doctrines, etc..

Ive got a better idea. Stop trying to gak on Deathwatch players.

Sunny Side Up wrote:


No unique litany? See above. Also Blood Angels didn't get one. Dark Angels neither.t.

Actually the blood angels and dark angels did get a unique Litany.

the blood angels is the "Invocation of destruction" and the dark angels is "Stotic persecution"

An odd number of players are also sustained purely by bitterness as well. It's a funny market.

The push to mono armies in general has me pretty out on the game as a whole. The difference between owning 2000 points of a single codex and 1000 or so of 2-3 is enough that everything just feels spammy and bland.

DW as a concept is crippled by the move. Getting rules that punish us for fitting in with other factions means we have to compete as a mono faction and just... don't. 2000 points of pure DW is just too limited to function. A single Battalion has been fine for all of 8th, but you rapidly run out of things to take.

I'm definitely disappointed in the direction the game's taken since the Space Marine codex as a whole.

You can still soup. You just don't get the goodies.

Martel732 wrote:
You can still soup. You just don't get the goodies.

Which makes you egregiously subpar, particularly as a power armor option.

The thread does actually have a topic.

Stick to it.

Further off topic posts will be treated as spam.

....deleted

Losing combat doctrines affects DW the least, though Doctrines are mainly there to kill other marines ever deader in my experience so far.

I'm disappointed that it's not as much as it could have been, but I'm also glad to have gotten access to the doctrines, litanies, and stratagems. I guess my real level of satisfaction will be determined by what's FAQ'd out or left in. Will the old version of combat doctrines and the stratagems stand for DW, or will they be changed? Will SIA stack and be usable with Bolter Discipline?

I enjoy playing mono dw and have been playing them without this update. This update improves things.

Things I'm looking forward to exploring: I might start using some of my Intercessor Bolt Rifle squads again for the Rapid Fire stratagem during the tactical doctrine. I like the idea of beaconing a chaplain over to a teleporting squad to get off a charge in the assault doctrine. Duty Eternal might help keep my dreadnoughts alive longer. Is Big Guns Never Tire enough to make the Corvus more viable?

DW is already better than every other SM faction. Now they get combat doctrines and additional SM stratagems.

They even get duty eternal in its old glory, where damage is halved, instead of -1. And they get adaptive strategy, a stratagem no other SM faction has.

 p5freak wrote:
DW is already better than every other SM faction. Now they get combat doctrines and additional SM stratagems.

They even get duty eternal in its old glory, where damage is halved, instead of -1. And they get adaptive strategy, a stratagem no other SM faction has.

Which will be quickly errata'd once GW get around to it. It'll be a fun few weeks until they do, however.

I mean, compared to other space marine codexes this kinda does suck ass. But compared to other non-marines, it's definitely more stuff that Im going to use with my deathwatch than with my drukhari, Eldar or GSC. I would say that probably my orks and thousand sons got better deals in terms of usability, mostly because it is PAAAAAINFULLY obvious that this is a lazy copy-paste update and there are a number of huge anti-synergies with how deathwatch armies are typically structured.

And, we do have an answer as to how bolter discipline interacts with SIA. The rules text for SIA says:

"When this unit fires any ranged weapons from the following list, you can choose for it to fire special ammunition. If you do so, the Bolter Discipline ability does not apply when resolving their shots, but you instead choose one kind of ammunition from the table to the right and apply the corresponding modifier."

It doesn't. That's cut and dry. People saying "it's unclear" now for some reason are just trying to snag new bonuses.

So, what are the big problems with the release?

1) Deathwatch very commonly includes units that aren't entirely made up of one unit keyword, which many of the new strats require. A unit with 5 Terminators and 5 Veterans cannot use the Veterans Fury stratagem, nor can a combat-squadded unit of 3 vanvets and 2 bikers use Hammer of Wrath. The exception is the Intercessor stratagems, because they're keyed to the unit entry name of "Deathwatch Intercessors" A unit of 5 DW intercessors, 2 hellblasters, 1 inceptor and 1 aggressor can still use Rapid Fire if they want to. The only drawback is that for each add-on member you stick into a fortis kill team, you lower the number of Intercessors you'll have in that team.

2) SIA explicitly does not interact with bolter discipline. This means that another new stratagem is weakened to the point where DW are unlikely to make use of it.

3) SIA also does not play nice with Combat Doctrines. Two of the SIA types are AP improvements, which won't stack with CDs, Wound on 2s ammo is always an option, but I've very commonly run into situations where you can either get an extra wound shift from AP-2 ammo or you can get into rapid fire range with AP-1+6" range, which is important because as mentioned deathwatch effectively don't get Bolter Discipline. This would lead most DW armies to stick to Devastator, but I think it's pretty obvious that this is a pre-FAQ document that will just get FAQed.

Now, what are the things that are pretty solid for the DW?

1) Litanies. This is the big one in my eyes, litanies can be very handy for DW. In my experience DW tend toward huge squads with tons of crazy crap in them, and the single-target litanies can be very handy even if it is just the base 6 and DW didn't get special snowflake litanies. Another source of +1 to wound allowing for easier access to that wound on 2s reroll 1s goodness, a charge boost that can synergize quite nicely with the "teleport a squad to me" relic, there's a lot more reason to consider chaplains now and DW really didn't have a go-to second HQ beyond the one Smashcap/watchmaster that you'd get for the reroll to hit bubble. I generally took either a libby, but found myself super frustrated by the hugely lackluster base marine book powers, or a chaplain, and he never did much. Good to have a salient reason to feel good about my 2nd HQ.

2) Vet Intercessor powers, particularly ABR one. With no bolter discipline and fortis kill teams having a tighter engagement range since you want to get the add-on units in rane I see tons of DW players leaning heavily on ABRs, and the value of this stratagem jumps up hugely when you're talking about strength: wound on 2s possibly rerolling 1s instead of strength 4.

3) Dreadnought strats. Even with the probable nerf to duty eternal coming deathwatch have to lean heavily on dreads for antitank. You're not gonna be taking a land raider or its flying and somehow worse cousin the deathwatch flyer...

4) transhuman phys. Deathwatch kill teams are often the only non-character targets I present to my opponent, they slice, they dice, they 2+, they 3++. And now I can cut down damage from weapons they'd get wounded on 2s and 3s by even more? Nice. I'll personally be getting a lot of mileage out of this, because my army is typically no more than 4-5 units plus characters. That's good that there's at least one good defensive stratagem we can use, because deathwatch are extremely spare in terms of good stratagem access.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
DW is already better than every other SM faction. Now they get combat doctrines and additional SM stratagems.

They even get duty eternal in its old glory, where damage is halved, instead of -1. And they get adaptive strategy, a stratagem no other SM faction has.

I mean objectively that's just wrong. DW has basically never been the highest winrate imperial faction. everyone had a little conniption when their codex dropped thinking about SB/SS vet squads in the midst of the whole castellan soup meta, but they pulled like a 45% winrate.

yeah got my Wd this morning....

Its definately very very weak in terms of content.

There is no lore - considering that they crammed yet more DA lore into a recent White Dwarf even though they were also taking up most of a so called campign book this or even the Tome Celstial in the same book it is just poor
The rules are the minimum possible for a Marine faction, so better than some Xenos but still surprised no relic etc....

However they should have, like Wolves and Angels got a SM suplement with all the Marine sub factions rather than just yet again reprinting stuff - that yet again needs its own unique FAQ to fix the same old issues.

But hey - at least you can also now use a Watch Master in Blackstone.