Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Time to vent on Dakka, time to rant. Rant mode on.

My parents are elderly and vulnerable, and I am staying with my father during this Coronavirus crisis. anyway I brought a letter in for him this morning amongst the post delivery for the day.
A sort of receipt for a maintenance plan for the Washing Machine, we have a washing machine, but no maintenance plan.
Checked the company on Companies House, new start up in August, no surprise there. Anyway my father called them before I knew about this to be cheerily informed that the account was set up by his wife and the money, £195 for three years cover with auto-renewal was already paid.
His wife...
Mother is not available right now, but I for one am glad they placed this fraud in her name and not my fathers, though it was strangely on my fathers account. Rant mode accelerated.

So I got onto the bank, getting the refund was relatively simple, but I want these bastards who prey on the elderly stopped, and this is where I have my big problem. This is an open-shut case. There is no way my mother could have arranged the call even if a phone was somehow passed to her She is in a nursing home with late stage dementia, and she cant string a word together, let alone a sentence; and this is easy to prove via the staff at her care home. Yet there is no mechanic for elevating this from an erroneous transaction to the theft that it is.

This fraud is so transparently hem fisted it is simple to detect, yet the monies leave the victims account so quickly, no subtlety is actually needed. Just charge one partners card while blaming the other partner and hoping there is enough discommunication for the transaction to be left long enough to clear. I wonder how many elederly people this scam hurts and how many of them dont detect in time.

Rant mode over.

Bastards

My step grandmother once got a call that I was in prison in Tijuana and needed $500 for bail and that she shouldn’t call my parents. She asked them to call back later, forgot about me for two hours and then called my step mom panicking that I was in jail. My dad reaches out to me and I was on the road in Michigan for work. My grandmother, despite hearing my voice confirming I was in Michigan was still unsure and thought I was in a jail in Tijuana. These scammers don’t stop. They just try new things. They never got her money (as far as I know).

PM’d you Orlanth. Or I will have in a bit.

There was a piece missing from the above story, something that niggled at me, an unanswered question.

Well I found the piece and its fething ugly. Rant resumed.

I wondered with a fraud so blatant why bother sending the legal paperwork in the post. They can always claim it was lost. I mean if you were a thief, I cant call this a scam as as far as I know my father wasn't contacted, just his credit card details were accessed. Anyway this thief could just bill the account, set up fake dox and then sit there. Less chance the debit would be noticed than a contract letter with fraudulent details.

We have a pair of nurses who come in for personal care three times a day as my father is bedbound. They witnessed the conversation when my father called them to query the account set up and were themselves distressed. Father was calmly explaining to the feth on the other side of the phone that his wife was in a nursing home and she could not have set up the account. And the fether was just getting nasty, apparently really really rude. The nurses wanted me to call his manager, but I realised that the nastiness wasnt a customer service issue, it was customer service as expected.

This missing piece is bullying. You get your 'contract' in the post. It has a small box on the top of the first page including your name, date of contract, contact detail number, a password, yes they wrote a password on the contract so you can be hoodwinked into thinking this is something you set up as you know the password, and nothing else. No actual bank details etc, we had to have the bank search to find which account as actually accessed.
Then below this is a textwall of small font legalese following on for another three pages. All unsigned and with no reply name as expected for a contract.

So all a vulnerable elderly person has is a four page wall of contract small print their own name, a bill (in retrospect of paying) and a phone number to contact. So when they call up to query this the customer service agent stonewalls and demands that it is a legit contract that they agreed to, hoping by a combination of bullying and unsure memory that the victim would relent as its one persons word against anothers. So in my fathers case when the agent refuses to accept that my mother had not set up the account he just got nastier.

The number is an 0203 number listed as free, but that is actually also not true. 0203 numbers can be free dependant on contract but the number itself is not free. the number and 'freephone' is the only large print on the document, evidently the highlight. You phone and get bullied into not calling your bank to report the fraud.

Scammers are often bullies yes. It's part of the package, they know that they can bully a lot of vulnerable people into compliance, or into a state of just giving up. Stonewalling and delaying tactics are also used to frustrate.

Basically they don't care and will be as rude, aggressive or whatever they want. There's no "company" to protect; no saving face no nothing. They are purely in it for the short term scam and the more they get away with the better before they jump to a new scam.



I've heard of the same with bait and switch (more commonly I've heard of it from the USA) where onilne sites require you to "phone to confirm your order". Normally after spending very little for something, you then phone up and they hard sell at you like crazy. "Oh the camera doesn't come with a battery, oh and we recommend the delux instruction book". Play ball and you might get it at an inflated cost equal too or greater than standard; refuse and they'll throw up all kinds of insults or barriers and will then either flat out cancel the order or will just never "process" it.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
My step grandmother once got a call that I was in prison in Tijuana and needed $500 for bail and that she shouldn’t call my parents. She asked them to call back later, forgot about me for two hours and then called my step mom panicking that I was in jail. My dad reaches out to me and I was on the road in Michigan for work. My grandmother, despite hearing my voice confirming I was in Michigan was still unsure and thought I was in a jail in Tijuana. These scammers don’t stop. They just try new things. They never got her money (as far as I know).

My grandmother got one of those calls.
Much to my surprise I had apparently been in an accident (amazing what can happen to you while you are sleeping), and despite my country of Denmark, being the victim of that communist evil of free healthcare (at the point of contact), a payment was apparently required.
Luckily my granny ain't no fool, so she called my dad, who called me.
A quick visit from me sorted it all out.

Never heard from the scammers again....sadly. Would have loved to ambush them with a few friends.

Folks, I seriously urge you to keep tabs on modern fraud trends.

The rules, laws and regulations are always going to be one step behind the scammers and fraudsters. Because in order to circumvent a system, the system has to be existent in the first place.

There’s a particularly useful update from the Financial Conduct Authority in the face of Covid-19, which you can read here —-> https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/avoid-coronavirus-scams

And remember. Scammers and Fraudsters need the right mark. And often, that does mean older and more vulnerable people.

Spread the good word. Have that conversation with your parents and grand parents. Get them used to double checking and being suspicious of emails and letters out of the blue. Because the quickest way to screw over scammers is get those close to you as wise as possible.

I dont know if I should or should not to dox the company involved.

They have a questionable freephone number, they offer a material service, appliance repair, yet only have a 'virtual address' in London and no listed assets. One of 4.603 companies sharing a single address in central London in what I could source was a virtual address hub.

 Orlanth wrote:
I dont know if I should or should not to dox the company involved.

They have a questionable freephone number, they offer a material service, appliance repair, yet only have a 'virtual address' in London and no listed assets. One of 4.603 companies sharing a single address in central London in what I could source was a virtual address hub.

If veryfied, go to the police.

The Comments section from my report to Action Fraud. I have a report number now and it is in their hands.
I feel the below is very amateur, but thinking on it, that is to be expected. Its a report for non-lawyers to state their case to the police for help..

My elderly father received a letter from <company name>.

Inside was an unsolicited Repair and Maintenance Plan contract document. The document was thin on many details including any contact name, date of contract, account details.

Client Details were as follows: (my annotation in brackets)

Client: Mrs ******* (my father is Mr <same as listed client>, my mother is Mrs <different> )
Telephone: (correct)
Password: (oddly openly supplied, though we never asked for one)
Plan Start Date: 6th April 2020
Plan End Date: 5th April 2023
Plan Number: ************** (we had no other actual details to the account available to us)
Plan Type: Standard
Cover Price: £195
Length Cover: 3 Years
Items Covered: Washing Machine (no details of make or model)

This was followed by an intimidating textwall of legal T&C covering the next four pages in small print.

The document was unsigned.


My family had no memory of any contact from this company. When my father phoned them on the number provided lists as 0203******** he queried the contract. The CSR claimed his wife had made the contract and it was valid. When my father disagreed he got nasty with them. His nursing care team was visiting at the time and they were distressed at the way he was spoken to. The CSR was stonewalling on any commentary on the invalidity of the contract.

My mother, who supposedly signed the contract according to the company, is in a nursing home with advanced dementia.

At no point were we given details as to which account was used. We had to find that out via the bank. It was my fathers account under the name of Mr ******** which also had no joint access to my mother at the time.

This transaction is clearly criminal, there is no way this could be a mistake, error or misunderstanding, it was a theft of £195 from my fathers account. The bank has arranged a refund, cancelled and reissued his cards.

We need you to investigate this company. Even from my laymens understanding the company website, address and listing at Companies house does not pass the sniff test. But then out first contact with this company was when my father phoned them after being billed without his authorisation or knowledge.

My concern is whether it will get ignored because I listed as a victim who has been refunded. Because my dad got his money back will this now be set to the curb?

Unlikely it‘ll be ignored - but that doesn’t mean they’ll ever get to the bottom of it.

Can you PM the company name? Want to see if it’s flagged as dodgy elsewhere, as it’s unlikely they’ve waited since August to get cracking.

I hope it isnt ignored. I got this reply from Action Fraud. Ok its a macro, but it doesnt look good.

RE: <report ID number>
Dear Mr <Orlanth>
You recently made a report which we recorded under <report ID number>.
Home Office Counting Rules set out the circumstances under which we can record a crime and on this occasion the matter you reported to us cannot be classified as a police recorded crime. Home Office Counting Rules for Fraud and Cyber Dependent Crime can be found online at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/counting-rules-for-recorded-crime.
You have indicated within your report that the misuse of your personal details or that of a company trading style played a part in the matter you are reporting. The use of another person’s identity, often referred to as identity theft, is not a police recordable crime. Where the details are used to obtain goods or services, we can only record a crime on behalf of the person or organisation which was defrauded as a result of the misuse of an identity.
An example of a situation in which we could record a crime would be where details were used to obtain credit, the use of which left the provider of credit with a financial loss. In these circumstances we would record a crime for the provider of the credit and look to establish if there was scope for the matter to be investigated.
Whilst the misuse of your identity cannot be classified as a police recorded crime, we do recognise that identity theft can cause significant distress and inconvenience. For advice and support, please see www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud_protection/identity_fraud.
What happens next?
Whilst we have not recorded this matter as a crime, we will still make use of the information you have provided. Information reports are utilised to enrich the overall intelligence picture which assists with the formulation and refinement of prevention strategies.
If you have any queries regarding this letter please visit www.actionfraud.police.uk/FAQ. If you would like more information on how to protect yourself from fraud and cyber crime, please see the guidance at www.actionfraud.police.uk/support_for_you. You can also register on our partner website www.actionfraudalert.co.uk to receive email alerts about new and emerging crime types.
Thank you again for taking the time to report this matter.
We value your feedback, please visit this link and complete the survey:
<survey link>
Yours sincerely,
Head of Action Fraud

Notes in bold.

Surely the £195 stolen from my fathers account is a crime? He didnt make the transaction, at all, I can understand a bit of caveat emptor, but this is hardly a case of such.

Different issue.

I could, theoretically, impersonate a person or company, and obtain goods, services and/or money pretending to be them.

There, the victim I’m impersonating hasn’t suffered a crime - but the companies I hoodwinked have.

So, if I impersonated a Dakkanaut, and pretended to be a FLGS? If I get goods from GW on credit terms, GW are the defrauded party, and thus the victim of the crime. But the Dakkanaut themself hasn’t suffered a loss - and so the fraud is a crime unrelated to the impersonation.

This is U.K. law only - please don’t take this as gospel outside of our Septic Isle!

Don't they say just that in the paragraph below the bolded part? Perhaps respond and explain that yes, they did use the information to obtain credit.

Edit: Also, how the feth is identity theft not an actual crime?

Police Recordable - it can be pursued, but isn’t included in crime stats.

Ah, so it is a crime. Good.

you're never going to stop scammers who target the elderly. its a scumbag thing to do, but scumbags will always be. the best bet is to educate the elderly, who may be less tech savvy, and more gullible and susceptible to high pressure techniques used by the scammers. I imagine, that as time goes on, and us early millennials who grew up with the internet and technology become the elderly generation, those type of scams will drop off somewhat as we are more aware of what info is and is not required to give etc.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
you're never going to stop scammers who target the elderly. its a scumbag thing to do, but scumbags will always be. the best bet is to educate the elderly, who may be less tech savvy, and more gullible and susceptible to high pressure techniques used by the scammers. I imagine, that as time goes on, and us early millennials who grew up with the internet and technology become the elderly generation, those type of scams will drop off somewhat as we are more aware of what info is and is not required to give etc.

Na , we will just get another version off it.

yeah I'd concur with that. they will evolve something to target us, I guess with the new technology that we dont understand I guess.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
yeah I'd concur with that. they will evolve something to target us, I guess with the new technology that we dont understand I guess.

I sure hope we go the biological modification route and not the cyborg route, one shudders to imagine getting hacked and controlled like a puppet.

It’s not so much that older folk are more gullible, so much as they’re more likely to listen to ‘authority’ as a generational thing.

So when someone phones up claiming to be The Police, and wanting their help to catch a bent banker in branch, they’re less likely to smell a rat.

Remember, fraudsters and scammers are successful when they’re convincing. And they don’t just target a handful at a time, so much as hundreds.

The typical generation gap in terms of tech competency also plays a role. Another common fraud is email interception. Essentially, the fraudster impersonate a solicitor, builder etc. Often they’ll have compromised the genuine business’ systems, furnishing them with a list of people expecting to send a fair chunk of money for something entirely legitimate. So when A,B. & C Solicitors, LLP, get in touch to request say, your mortgage deposit, it’s expected, and so questioned less.

Net result? Fraudsters substitute their preferred bank details (likely belonging to a patsy, however willing or unwilling) and boom, they’ve just nabbed a significant sum for relatively little effort.

The cruellest thing about that type of fraud/scam is that people are unlikely to have that “hey.....wait a minute” realisation for a good few days - sometimes weeks. That’s more than enough time for the money to be laundered thoroughly. The same goes with elderly people contacted by ‘The Police’, as they’re told to keep it secret to avoid tipping off the non- existent suspect.

IRS emails always come around the start/end of the year. Hi its the government and you've underpaid on your tax. Please send X amount to Y address or we'll audit you and other nasty scary legal words!

Or you've got a refund please pay the amount owing to unlock your refund etc...


I'd wager they catch a lot of people, especially any who just started doing their tax by internet.



Another thing is that many scammers also prey on the desperate. People who are in dire need of money and who can be nudged into panic thinking, which basically makes them less likely to think things through. It makes them far more likely to keep throwing money at the scammer to continue to unlock some mythical golden pot at the end.

Heck sometimes scams are from legit companies. The Readers Digest competitions were very much like that. Sending you loads of "You're a guaranteed winner in our draw with a top prize of £10000000, (then in smaller writing bottom prize of a free pen!). Please stick these random stickers onto random bits of the form we sent you and send it back. A few forms later and "You're now into our final final guaranteed winning block, please send £30 so we can process your winnings. You are guaranteed to be part of the winning draw".

Then after months of badgering and sticker returns and payments you win - the pen.

All legitimate, all from a well known firm, yet utterly scammy in nature. I've not followed for years and year and years but I'd be surprised if they were not shut down at some stage.

Interesting snippet of infos?

Scam emails contain deliberate misspellings and poor grammar. Because if you can spot them, you’re likely on the ball enough to not fall for the scam.

Which helps the scammers net more likely victims. Yes, perfectly smart people with say, dyslexia will be caught up, but no net is perfect - and I am not implying dyslexia is any way linked to a lack of evidence or education. It’s a very, very different thing!

really? surely not having the misspellings would be better as they potentially would fool more victims? I always assumed the misspellings were because the emails were made by nigerian princes or russians or something.

The people behind the more common scams are surprisingly smart.

Even in the call centre scale ones (which exist, sadly), they’re working with limited man hours.

By throwing out the odd warning signs, they’re weeding out those likely to twig half way or otherwise part way through the wider scam.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
they’re weeding out those likely to twig half way or otherwise part way through the wider scam.

Not to mention those who will tie them up on the phone for an hour and then blast an air horn down the line.

Sending out an effectively infinite number of scam emails costs basically nothing. But pursuing an individual mark via phone call or whatever requires time and effort. The scammer ideally wants to limit that stage to reliable marks - ie. those who have already proven themselved to be stupid/ignorant/naive enough to miss obvious red flags.

Exactly. Well put!

When your initial contact is a pure numbers game, you want to be reducing those numbers to likely marks as soon as possible.

yeah fair enough I guess.

I'd always thought some of the "pigeon english", especially when spoken - when also coupled with a cheap line that's a bit noisy - was done so that they could confuse and bully what they want. Ergo if they appear to not quite understand you, but understand you enough to always interpret what you say as being for their own benefit. Basically using the language "barrier" to force people down pathways that the otherwise might not take, just in an effort to get things over with.

Impatience is a powerful tool once you've got someone on the line and hooked on the scam.