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I saw some discussion related to this, and I was wondering what other people think about GW's rules layout.

As for me, I've found that I much prefer the compact nature of the 8th ed indexes despite GW's decision to eventually get rid of them. As it stands now, I feel that GW is spreading rules out way too much and making it harder to fully play the game without a handful of rulebooks.

For example, I like to play some guard with knights and assassins. When 8th dropped all of that was in one book. Now? 2 codexes and a white dwarf/chapter approved. All that fundamentally changed was added faction traits, strats and relics (about 1 page for the traits, 3 pages for strats, and 1 page for relics) which could have easily fit into the indexes. Admittedly, a lot of lore was added, but as a rules source it became overly cumbersome imo.

Another issue is that GW seems reluctant to make a codex for inquisition/imperial agents. Which on the one hand makes sense since the inquisition is meant to be incorporated into actual armies, but on the other hand we already had their rules packed with most of the armies they would be used with anyway. It just feels like a major step backwards. Same goes for assassins, and at this point the sisters of silence too.

Plus they were cheaper too

Overall, either.
Indexes will do, but I prefer individual Codices though.

For a tabletop D6 based wargame in 28mm scale, increasingly I'm thinking that fewer books and rules sources is better.

Whether we have handful of index books or a 12 codexes plus maybe a couple FW books, I can deal with anything in that range, but when we have two dozen or more codex books plus another almost 20 supplements with Chapter Approved on top of that (and FW basically being dead at this point), it gets to be too much when we start approaching 50 books or more. That's too much to buy, too much to carry (if one buys physical books), and too much to keep adequate track of as a player.

The game really tries to play at too many scales, tries to hamfist flavor into places that make little sense, and we end up with gobs of "variety" that ends up largely being a weapon or special rule swap or just straight up free power-enhancing special rules slapped onto stuff with a design space stuffed into a D6 based wargame that's trying to make interactions involving handguns and knives on the same battlefield as strategic artillery and ICBM's, and a big mess results. There's a lot of variety and flavor that GW pushes into 40k that really belongs at an RPG/Skirmish level or should only ever really be relevant on larger strategic scales, that makes little sense in a company-level wargame. If GW tightened things up and spread this detail and variety out more among Kill Team and Apocalypse instead of shoving it all into normal 40k, I think each game system would benefit substantially.

EDIT:

If we could get it down to say 12-15 codex books, a rulebook, Chapter Approved, and an FW book or two, I think we'd alleviate a lot of problems. It'd also open up more space for different kinds of releases, maybe some that add stuff to the game other than just "hey here's more ways to boost the power level!"

I wouldn't be totally opposed to going back to an Index status either, albeit I'd prefer they be not quite so cut to the bone as the original 8E ones were.

It depends on what you consider a "faction". For example, I'm for eliminating the separate codices for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons. I'm for consolidating Imperial Knights and Chaos Knights into a single codex as it should've been.

Codexes, because you get more faction specific flavor, but agree with SlayerFan that there's too many. Many codexes could be combined.

I enjoy the spot light on my army in the codex but if they went to an index format there are more pros.

Less books
Higher likelihood of balance. I don’t have to worry about A team vs B team book writer balancing issues
If I want to research an army it’s right there available in a few books
Fewer books so a possibility of more regular updates

Just some thoughts. I collect Space Wolves.

Codices, the indexes where souless creatures.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I enjoy the spot light on my army in the codex but if they went to an index format there are more pros.

Less books
Higher likelihood of balance. I don’t have to worry about A team vs B team book writer balancing issues
If I want to research an army it’s right there available in a few books
Fewer books so a possibility of more regular updates

No doubt those more frequent updates will arrive in the form of more books....

I don’t want frequent updates. I want regular updates. There are times that armies lag well behind because they go without an updated codex an entire edition. Dark Eldar springs to mind

I'd like it if every faction could go the dex + supplement route. Chaos and Eldar could, but nids, orks and tau need more stuff to pull it off.

By now, you guys already know what I'm going to say, because I say it every time this comes up... Which is often:

For competitive play, I agree with y'all. But I don't play competitive; I build multifaction escalation campaigns and basically play it almost as if it's an RPG, and I love having all those options you guys hate so much.

As for playing at different scales, honestly, that's what makes this edition of the game work for me; if I'm not transitioning from the single model BSF to squad level Kill Team to army level 40k to legion scale Apocalypse, and back again based on the needs of an overarching story... Quite frankly, I'm bored.

Indexes were pretty decent for balanced tournament play with strangers. But there was never anything in the indexes to sink your teeth into; no way for a lowly unit that would otherwise have just felt like a checker on a checkerboard to step up with a strat that saves the day; no named weapons to form the basis of quests for your chapter/ cult/ sept. No differences between the cult of the Four Armed Emperor and the Twisted Helix, and Tech priests from Mars that fought exactly like tech priests from Metallica.

In other words, none of the stuff that drew me to this game 31 years ago.

None of that awesomeness, and flavour and depth is necessary for a weekend of playing random games with random people to see who wins, which is why nobody who wants only that out of the game cares what would be lost in this simplification process.

Now granted, if you want to redistribute some of the 40k material into Kill Team, as long as we don't lose anything, I can get behind that. Releasing Imperial Agents as a Kill Team expansion rather than a dex, for example, could work, as long as you retain the capacity to also use the models in 40k. I've always believed that Kill Team should be used to greater capacity- it would have been the perfect vehicle for Commorragh, or Aspect Temples.

I have wanted every edition of 40k to be as detailed as 8th is. I've been waiting for it to happen since 1989. People like me aren't currently represented well on Dakka, but we are a significant part of the fan base, and I think GW knows it.

This edition caters to the kind of folks who did a dance of joy when this edition gave us 3 Rogue Trader models because we've been playing the game since that's what it was called. This are the folks who dove into the Fantasy Flight stuff because they couldn't get enough immersion without it; the folks who played Inquisitor and decided to pull it down to 40k scale. These are the folks who would buy a hard bound book of Blanchitsu articles, kitbash a handful of Pilgrim units and craft a story to try and bring them all together on the 40k table.

I wouldn't care if tournament organizers said you couldn't use stuff from campaign books, but that probably wouldn't sit too well with Grey Knight players.

I'd also be okay if everyone ends up with a good 2.0 dex that incorporates stuff from all those disparate sources but maybe even adds a little more too; if there's enough material that you can do it as a dex + supplements, that's ideal.

For me, the key is not to lose anything. I mean, take a strategems list for example. When I get a new dex, I generally put together a list of 3-4 go-to strats, and a list of 3-4 maybes. What I don't do is hate all the other strategems on the list that are useless garbage that should be removed from the game. I am greatful the options are there, even if they don't suit my play style or the needs of my story.

To me, that example is this whole argument in microcosm. To me, there is no such thing as too many options, because I can always choose to not buy the things which do not appeal to me.

BrianDavion wrote:
Codices, the indexes where souless creatures.

What made the indexes soulless? Was it the lack of lore or the rules?

Hypothetically, if you could give the indexes more "soul" would that satisfy you? Or do you feel just having a separate codex is fun in and of itself?

I would love to go back to the Index model. It was very convenient for me, I have 5 armies and I only needed to buy 2 books to have everything I wanted. And, they were softback, so they were cheaper. I hate buying books, especially expensive ones.

IMO, for me, the optimal thing would be to have softback, black and white indexes with just the rules. Strip out all the useless stuff like fluff and photos. I know the fluff already, and my color scheme has been decided for almost a decade now.


However, I acknowledge that the Codex model is almost certainly a "better" model. The indexes are good for long time players, like I, who already know a lot about the game and have established collections of many armies, but for casual players with only a single army they don't really benefit from having the consolidation of the indexes, and new/casual players who don't already have large collections of miniatures are much easier to tempt to buy more when you have pretty full-color photographs and artwork. In addition, it's the ostensibly useless fluff stuff that we already know that sells the army to new players, and picking up the codex is how they get that fluff stuff.


So, while I would personally prefer the index model because it's convenient for me and reduces my monetary yearly outlay on books, I also acknowledge that the codex system is certainly better for selling models and attracting new players, which are fundamentally what's important here.




I would definitely like to not see the supplement model spread from space marines. It's really just a book full of fluff stuff and a small number of rules that manages to make itself essential through the fact that the relatively small number of rules in it are entirely free for your faction [read: must have] and game-changingly strong. It's literally the worst of all worlds.

I like the supplements, HOWEVER, I'd be fine with them changing how supplements where. to be blunt, if they stripped the rules OUT of supplements, and made them a paper back sourcebook by black library that REALLY delved into the lore of the subfaction etc. I'd actually be happier. I dunno how much demand for a pure fluff sourcebook for 40k there would be however.


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Dandelion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Codices, the indexes where souless creatures.

What made the indexes soulless? Was it the lack of lore or the rules?

Hypothetically, if you could give the indexes more "soul" would that satisfy you? Or do you feel just having a separate codex is fun in and of itself?

the lore certainly, but in addition to that the art, and even things like the painting gallary (which is useful to look at when looking for inspiration) the indexes felt like just a sheet of stats.
As Katherine noted, for us people who've been around awhile, maybe the lore isn't important, we mostly know everything thats there, but that lore is critical to suck new people in. the indexes might be fine for veterns and people who just want to GAME, but to be blunt I suspect people who aren't intreasting in the lore and setting are a minority

I would like to see the return of "opponent's permission" rules.

For example, a supplement would mostly be a fluff sourcebook, but you could do something like the following:

[pretend Order of the Shattered Visage Adepta Sororitas supplement]

[fluff on the page about the Order's fighting style]
"The Order of the Shattered Visage is famous for lightning-fast mechanized infantry strikes, depositing a huge density of specialist, short-ranged weapons straight into the teeth of the foe. Their vehicles shriek with raucous music, roaring across the battlefield to disgorge their charges directly into the enemy line.

We at Games Workshop can understand using the Order of the Argent Shroud conviction to reflect the Order of the Shattered Visage's lightning-fast mobility. However, should your opponent agree, we supply the conviction below:
Mechanized Assault: Units with this Conviction may disembark from TRANSPORT unit with this Conviction after it has moved, rather than before. Additionally, if a unit with this Conviction is charged, any TRANSPORT units with this Conviction within 3" may fire Overwatch at full ballistic skill against the charging unit. However, they may only do this once per turn, and only if an enemy is not already within 1" of the unit being charged or the firing unit.

Indexes, all the way.

Codex should be the "deluxe" treatment at best, where you can get stories, fluff, history and the like.

But indexes should give you "just the rules", be kept current and balance in some way to Codex armies (i.e., doctrines, army bonuses, stratagems should have some cost for the usefulness they apply to the army, instead of "free!")

Penitent Jake put it really nicely why Indizes were too bland for the game. 40K is about creating stories in that over the top universe, bringing fluffy armies to the table and seeing how they do, write a scenario that tells a battle of your guys. 8th does that pretty good with loads of sources to choose from, even if GW is putting them all behind steep paywalls.

That being said I wouldn't mind if they changed the releases from faction specific books to thematic, similar to how Lotr does it. You could have an Index with the Basic stuff, an Index with all the faction rules of stratagems, Warlord traits and so on, an Index for indepth terrain rules / cities of Death, an Index with 30 scenarios. But then you realize GW has done exactly the latter in CA, Vigilus and Urban Conquest and released codexes nevertheless in 8th.
So, what the game could need is for the tournament focused people to get an official list of which rules don't apply in organized play. Right now the rule of 3 is the only specific tournament rule. Reading dakka it seems people would like to have more of that. But leave the cool stuff for us fluff players to use.

Codexes, for the reason that they cater to everyone.
Some people only want the crunch, the stats and strats but plenty of people are as much about the fluff, the painting and hobby side of it.
If there was a way to incorporate the rules part of the codex in a softback, removable supplement so much the better.

 kingheff wrote:
Codexes, for the reason that they cater to everyone.
Some people only want the crunch, the stats and strats but plenty of people are as much about the fluff, the painting and hobby side of it.
If there was a way to incorporate the rules part of the codex in a softback, removable supplement so much the better.

This. I like the fluff sections in the codex, paint schemes etc etc.

Codex is fine. Codex plus Index plus campaign book(s) plus Legends plus supplement plus annual Chapter Approved feels like it's taking the piss.

Definitely Codex.

I suppose they could release a organised play index stripped of most of the flavour, fluff, strategems, chapter tactics etc. in the name of balance but the Codex should definitely be the standard.

Index

No reason to not have one book for Space Marines with all rules for all Chapters inside
Same for Chaos

All I want is a rulebook - a book with just rules in it, all the rules, for my particular faction.

The idexes had a load of stuff that I didn't need each game (other faction stuff) where as the codexs have a load of fluff I don't need when playing the game.

At the moment I print out all the datasheets and relevant rules I need and put them into a simple lip binder for each game - makes for a much easier experience when playing, only need a single book for each game and the added bonus is it lays flat -)

Overall they just need to bring out an app with all the units easily searchable.

So all you want WisdomLS is basically a full release without the need to pay more for what could've been baseline content?

It would be nice to have all the rules in one book. But what it seems to me, is that GW makes an unfinished codex, and then supplements it with vigilus or awakening type of books and the obligatory CA. Makes sense too, as they are making people pay for 3 books, instead of one. It is like those new big army boxs, where to get a ghaz you need to buy SW models few, if any want, and orcs you already have.

I fully expect this to get more extrem as time goes. Books with one unit updates. In fact it is bizzar to me, that FAQ/errata are free.

Neither?

I would prefer a digital ruleset that doesn't have all the issue related to updating that printed sources have.

Codex (and datacards) should be available for purchase as premium product for those who want them - if you buy them, you get the most recent rules sent to you in a book with pretty pictures, unit background and stories about how your army defeats everything.

Where's the option for free, downloadable rules?

 kingheff wrote:
Codexes, for the reason that they cater to everyone.

What about people who have multiple codices for the same faction already and don't want to pay ~£25 for a book that's about 60% copy&pasted fluff and 20% marketing catalogue?

Also, I tire of being expected to pay more money for books with markedly less content. If GW wants to remove units from my army, then i expect a significant price reduction in the codex for that army as I'm no longer getting rules for those units.

 vipoid wrote:
Where's the option for free, downloadable rules?

 kingheff wrote:
Codexes, for the reason that they cater to everyone.

What about people who have multiple codices for the same faction already and don't want to pay ~£25 for a book that's about 60% copy&pasted fluff and 20% marketing catalogue?

Also, I tire of being expected to pay more money for books with markedly less content. If GW wants to remove units from my army, then i expect a significant price reduction in the codex for that army as I'm no longer getting rules for those units.

There's plenty of room for improvement in the codicess for sure. I recently bought the dark eldar codex and, yeah, it's pretty thin in terms of units. But support for the xenos ranges is a different issue.

 vipoid wrote:
Where's the option for free, downloadable rules?
.

It's a useless option as GW's not going to do that and it tends to skew it as everyone likes free. it's just not reasonable to expect a codices worth of rules for one to two dozen factions to be given away for free and it just leads to a skew of the polls as people choose the "I'm cheap and unrealistic" choice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingheff wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Where's the option for free, downloadable rules?

 kingheff wrote:
Codexes, for the reason that they cater to everyone.

What about people who have multiple codices for the same faction already and don't want to pay ~£25 for a book that's about 60% copy&pasted fluff and 20% marketing catalogue?

Also, I tire of being expected to pay more money for books with markedly less content. If GW wants to remove units from my army, then i expect a significant price reduction in the codex for that army as I'm no longer getting rules for those units.

There's plenty of room for improvement in the codicess for sure. I recently bought the dark eldar codex and, yeah, it's pretty thin in terms of units. But support for the xenos ranges is a different issue.

I don't think even thinness of a codex is even the issue here, but quality. I agree we pay a LOT of money for a codex, the rules should be better written and the fluff should proably be more in depth then what amounts to a 12 year old hype of the faction. sometimes the fluff in a codex can be great. but yeah when you buy a 50 dollar codex and get a cut and paste of the lore that was in the last 5 editions worth of codices, and poorly thought out rules... that is annoying. Warhammer 40k is a bit of a premium product, we outlay a decent amount of money for it... I'm cool with that, I expect that. 40k's my hobby, it's what I sink my money into once I buy all my necessities etc. but I should get premium quality for a premium price. I get that with the minis. Not sure we get that with the books.

I don't think even thinness of a codex is even the issue here, but quality. I agree we pay a LOT of money for a codex, the rules should be better written and the fluff should proably be more in depth then what amounts to a 12 year old hype of the faction. sometimes the fluff in a codex can be great. but yeah when you buy a 50 dollar codex and get a cut and paste of the lore that was in the last 5 editions worth of codices, and poorly thought out rules... that is annoying. Warhammer 40k is a bit of a premium product, we outlay a decent amount of money for it... I'm cool with that, I expect that. 40k's my hobby, it's what I sink my money into once I buy all my necessities etc. but I should get premium quality for a premium price. I get that with the minis. Not sure we get that with the books.

Well, comparing the dark eldar codex to the main marine codex suggests a very big difference in both rules and fluff contents. I haven't read the Harlequins codex but I suspect they will make the dark eldar codex look thick by comparison. But the price is the same for all, that's hardly a good look.

Index for me. I still remember the 2nd ed boxed game fondly with a rule book, a wargear book and a fluff book (codex imperialis I think) and a black and white pamphlet Army Lists that had the units and points for all the armies at the time of print so you could play with any army straight away. Of course this was basically what the did with the index system for 8th since in both cases there were no valid codex books.

I’d love to see them give a way to buy the rules without the fluff and photos! For photos/inspiration the internet can provide more than any book will and as for fluff, now we have black library so there’s no need to include it in the rules.