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in the history of the Imperium

legionare or adeptus?

in your opinion

That's a tricky question. "Combat ability" can refer to a lot of things. Some random guy might have been really good at running and gunning. Another guy might have been a genius at planning firing solutions for spaceships. There may have been a random astartes that was actually more talented than anyone else ever born, but his thunderhawk got shot down on his first mission before he could prove himself.

Lucius is generally played up as being possibly the best swordsman, but he's lost a few fights of his own to some random schmucks (thus his creepy rebirth ability). But he's still probably the guy whose gimmick is being good at duels, moreso than any other character.

Draigo seems to get a lot of cred for Samurai Jacking his way through the warp, but that has a lot to do with psychic powers which may or may not count as "combat ability."

And honestly? A lot of top-tier astartes are probably close enough in ability that they could win their fair share of bouts against the other candidates. Being "the best" doesn't necessarily mean that you win every time.

I would say it would have to be a marine from the time of the Heresy - simply because so much of that era is couched as over the top or mythical with the warriors of that time accomplishing great feats.

Sigismund, maybe Sevatar or someone else.

I suspect the answer would vary depending on what chapter you asked

Sharowkyn. The guy that beat Lucius twice (and killed him once) and headshot Fulgrim. Plus he is like super hyper mega sneaky and deadly

If wer're talking pure combat ability in terms of swordsmanship and the ability to dispose of dudes quite quickly, it has to be sigismund hands down.
He was the first emperors champion and he almost trounced abaddon when he himself was already quite old. He ultimately lost to abaddon, but abaddon respected him so much that he sent back his body, armor and sword with full honors to his chapter.

There have been other great fighters among the astartes like kharn or sevatar, who has already been mentioned. Also some of the current great heroes like grimnar and dante are amazing fighters, but imho none of them can really live up to sigismund. He truly was a martial prodogy.

Calgar has really epic feats, so if we're not counting daemonic gifts or psychic powers or the like then him.
If we are then obviously Abaddon beat him, and Mephiston and Draigo are a pretty big deal too.

Tiberias wrote:
If wer're talking pure combat ability in terms of swordsmanship and the ability to dispose of dudes quite quickly, it has to be sigismund hands down.
He was the first emperors champion and he almost trounced abaddon when he himself was already quite old. He ultimately lost to abaddon, but abaddon respected him so much that he sent back his body, armor and sword with full honors to his chapter.

There have been other great fighters among the astartes like kharn or sevatar, who has already been mentioned. Also some of the current great heroes like grimnar and dante are amazing fighters, but imho none of them can really live up to sigismund. He truly was a martial prodogy.

Completely agree with this.
He has been reference quite a few times by various primarchs as being one of the best swordsmen there is.
I believe one went on to note his abilities weren’t far off that of a primarch (believe this was Dorn or Russ that said that)



And to quote Sanguinius:
“ less my brother Dorn's champion, and more Death's himself”

In terms of Legionnaires, I'd say Sigismund.

In terms of modern loyalists? Eh, most likely a Chapter Master of some degree, or perhaps even someone like Hervald Strom, the only two-time winner of the Feast of Blades. Or, Castellan Crowe.

Sevatar defeated Sigusmund in a duel. Just pointing that out.

Wouldn't it be Abaddon? Or are we just talking about loyalists?

Sevatar also cheated to win the duel so the win was disqualified. Not that I would expect any less from the VIII legion. Still he was definitely at the pinnacle of astartes. Remember though that controlled duels aren’t the end all measure of ability. Khan is a human freight train but never did well in duels because he didn’t care about ritualized combat.

As said almost any chapter master is up in the running. Of course first founding get to be the most special. The problem with gushing marine power from the fluff is that every thing is so over the top you can’t really compare it. Of course we all know that it is CATO SICARIUS that is the greatest of Astartes.

Of course he cheated! That's because the Eighth understand there's no rules in war. And yes, if we're measuring plot armour, Sicarius would probably rank pretty high.

Don’t get me wrong I love the murderous liars and cheats that are the night lords but they’re essentially any entire army built on bullying their opponent. Their actions in the Heresy pretty much show that they’re somewhat lacking when it comes to a straight fight. Sevatar was one of the main exceptions but he was a very unique Night Lord. Still the fact remains that it was a duel and not war.

I’m pretty sure they could write that CATO SICARIUS greatest space marine was killed by a nurgling and everyone would be ok with that

I love them because they're murderous liars and cheats as well, but they're accomplishments in the Heresy come down to the same thing that makes a question like the one this thread asks pointless: the writer. Give Night Lords to Guy Haley and they're whiney losers. Give them to ADB and a single squad can bring down a warhound titan. The same can be said of all legions/chapters and characters. Too much bad writing and subjectivity in the good writing. (Haley being the former, ADB the latter).

Gah don’t remind me. The Crimson Fist was one of the most painfull short stories to read. If you go off of that, the Iron Warriors are one of the most inept legions.

Angron, melee combat was all he had going for him.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Gah don’t remind me. The Crimson Fist was one of the most painfull short stories to read. If you go off of that, the Iron Warriors are one of the most inept legions.

Yes! But compare that to their portrayal in Storm of Iron. It's all up to the writer and how they are portrayed.

I may be missing a few here, but it's generally accepted that Sigismund was/is the greatest astarte in terms of pure physical prowess to have been, but Corswain, Raldoron and Sevatar were also up there.

A few interesting things, Khan beat Sigismund and was saved by Dorn on Terra. Khan was pumped up full of Khorne roids at that point though. Also interestingly, Sigismund held his own against Daemon Fulgrim on Terra also, well for a time and Fulgrim was genuinely impressed at his skill, Dorn intervened to save him again.

I am enjoying the novels based on the siege itself, especially as more information and story is fleshed out. I'm especially interested to find out who kills Khan in the siege, before his resurrection obviously.

Storm of Iron worked so well because the novel kept pivoting back and forth to who had the advantage. The best works tend to very even handed in how the battle flows. The worst use one side as a punching bag. I agree. Still there are enough accounts to build some sort of hierarchy. You can’t prove one or the other but it’s clear across multiple books and authors that Sevatar and Sigsmund were well above the norm.

I’d also argue it’s safe to say that Great Crusade veterans probably represented the highest level marines could reach. They appeared to have longer lives since plenty were several hundred years old at the heresy and would have greater experience than a 40k equivalent. The current ones seem to have a faster turn over since the Imperiums threats have escalated.

Kharn, Sigismund, Hervald Strom and Crowe are pretty much the most dangerous close combat fighter in the history of the Astartes in my opinion.

If we go unto a wider category that would included commandingg abilities, accuracy and general fieldcraft, Sharokyn, Abbadon and Calgar would probably be better examples.

A trickier question would be who is the single worst known Space Marine?

30K? No idea. Lost interest in the books long ago.
40K? Assuming loyalist vampire lords aren't counted, Ragnar has to be up there. I know of no other Marine who gets a 4+ invulnerable just because he's that effing good. Or who can go toe to toe with Ghazkull

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Still there are enough accounts to build some sort of hierarchy. You can’t prove one or the other but it’s clear across multiple books and authors that Sevatar and Sigsmund were well above the norm.

Agreed, I think the best that could come out of this thread is to build some kind of tournament bracket or similar, setting up fun pairings between the agreed-upon top 10.

A few thoughts on different characters:

Re: Lucius: sorry, but he'd have died long ago if it wasn't for Slaanesh's wiles. He knows he's got his daddy-mommy looking out for him. As soon as Slaanesh loses patience, as they always does with their mortal playthings eventually, Lucius is gone.

Re: Sigismund, Abaddon did beat him, before he got all bloated with Chaos, but even an Astartes will be slow after 1000 years, meaning Sigismund was not at the peak of his game, and Abaddon almost died from his wounds. So another point, is that we'd have to choose at which time we are considering the different characters to interact - a pre-Heresy Lucius was beaten in a duel by a single punch in the face. When Abaddon sent Sigismund's sword back, it wasn't entirely out of respect - it was also to warn the Imperium that they were coming back.

Re: Kharn, I think he might be one of the stronger candidates, although he has been brought back to life by Khorne at least twice, so that's some points off, I'm afraid - but he's died less times than Lucius has.

I'm surprised no one has brought up Dante yet - apparently I'm taking points off if a character dies, and as the oldest living Space Marine, I think he'd be a good candidate. Clearly he's doing something right.

I think my vote would probably be Vigilus-era Abaddon, even if he has a bunch of chaos soup that helps power him up. If we're only counting "natural" Astartes (there's an oxymoron for you), I'd probably agree that Heresy-era Sigismund would be the top or near the top of my list.

Here's an obscure character: Tagore from The Outcast Dead, who, while completely naked and unarmed, defeated a fully armed and armored Custodes after spending two years locked in an isolation cell. Plot armor and subjective reading of the relative skill of each character? Absolutely. But I'm gonna throw his name in the ring regardless.

I mean Old past prime Siggy was closer than anyone else in killing Abaddon...

Lucius’s greatest flaw will always be his arrogance. If he had any degree of discipline he’d probably be utterly terrifying but he doesn’t take all fights seriously. He’s an easy target for an upset loss since he has a glaring case of overconfidence. In 6th and 7th he had a rule that set his attacks based on his opponents weapon skill meaning he basically fought down to some opponents.

Sigsmund was definitely a beast but we know Abbadon won. If they met at Terra it might have been a mutual kill or it might have been a slight win for Sigsmund. It’s probably a safe bet to put the two at essentially close to the same tier. Although Sigsmund was older, the Black Legion was far more exhausted since they’d been constantly fighting in the Eye and had no reliable chain of supply.

Did they confirm that Khorn actually died on Istavaan III or was he just badly mauled by that dozer blade. I don’t think that “death” should count against him since it was the equivalent of getting in a bar fight and suddenly getting run over by a dump truck. I haven’t read any Siege of Terra books yet but do we know what kills him there? I was hopping something like indiscriminate shelling or a heavy weapon did it rather than a duel.

Dante definitely is a good bet. He’s pretty much respected by everyone but Gabriel Seth. Any Blood Angels character isn’t a bad one either. Mephiston is ridiculously powerful and has an immense psychic might too. There was also a random Blood Angels Chaplain who managed to wound Abaadon in a black crusade. They put his body on a throne of Black Legion armor from the ones he’d slain out of respect.

Khayon the Black was Abbadon’s go too assassin for other warlords. If psychic powers are included he’s extremely deadly.

Non legion related, Tyberos the Red Wake is utterly brutal and the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs leads a chapter that specializes in killing other space marines.

Of course the ultimate duelists would be Bjorn the Fell handed or Cullen the Risen. The dreadnought makes them basically impossible to beat in a 1 on 1 basis now unless you’re a monster of some sort.

Dead- Sigismund

Alive- Khârn

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Still there are enough accounts to build some sort of hierarchy. You can’t prove one or the other but it’s clear across multiple books and authors that Sevatar and Sigsmund were well above the norm.

Agreed, I think the best that could come out of this thread is to build some kind of tournament bracket or similar, setting up fun pairings between the agreed-upon top 10.

A few thoughts on different characters:

Re: Lucius: sorry, but he'd have died long ago if it wasn't for Slaanesh's wiles. He knows he's got his daddy-mommy looking out for him. As soon as Slaanesh loses patience, as they always does with their mortal playthings eventually, Lucius is gone.

Re: Sigismund, Abaddon did beat him, before he got all bloated with Chaos, but even an Astartes will be slow after 1000 years, meaning Sigismund was not at the peak of his game, and Abaddon almost died from his wounds. So another point, is that we'd have to choose at which time we are considering the different characters to interact - a pre-Heresy Lucius was beaten in a duel by a single punch in the face. When Abaddon sent Sigismund's sword back, it wasn't entirely out of respect - it was also to warn the Imperium that they were coming back.

Re: Kharn, I think he might be one of the stronger candidates, although he has been brought back to life by Khorne at least twice, so that's some points off, I'm afraid - but he's died less times than Lucius has.

I'm surprised no one has brought up Dante yet - apparently I'm taking points off if a character dies, and as the oldest living Space Marine, I think he'd be a good candidate. Clearly he's doing something right.

I think my vote would probably be Vigilus-era Abaddon, even if he has a bunch of chaos soup that helps power him up. If we're only counting "natural" Astartes (there's an oxymoron for you), I'd probably agree that Heresy-era Sigismund would be the top or near the top of my list.

Here's an obscure character: Tagore from The Outcast Dead, who, while completely naked and unarmed, defeated a fully armed and armored Custodes after spending two years locked in an isolation cell. Plot armor and subjective reading of the relative skill of each character? Absolutely. But I'm gonna throw his name in the ring regardless.

I am sorry but I refuse to acknowledge that scene from the outcast dead. There is no way, no way that an unarmored world eater punches through a custodes auramite armor. It is just stupid and inconsistent storytelling at its finest and I really dislike that book for it.
I know all of 40k is just fiction but I am a huge advocate for consistency within the rules of that universe as it has been set up by the writers and that scene from the outcast dead is a prime example of throwing that consistency right out the window.

Edit: I agree that Dante and kharn are good candidates for best fghters who are alive right now. Heresy Era abaddon was an absolute beast, but I personally think that heresy era Sigismund would have beat him. Abaddon nowadays roflstomps most other astartes loyal or heretic, because of constant chaos steroids so it's a bit of an unfair comparison.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Did they confirm that Khorn actually died on Istavaan III or was he just badly mauled by that dozer blade. I don’t think that “death” should count against him since it was the equivalent of getting in a bar fight and suddenly getting run over by a dump truck. I haven’t read any Siege of Terra books yet but do we know what kills him there? I was hopping something like indiscriminate shelling or a heavy weapon did it rather than a duel.

A fair point! I remember that an apothecary found Kharn after Istvaan III and he was near death, so depending on your interpretation you could say that he pulled through based on his own merit.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Of course the ultimate duelists would be Bjorn the Fell handed or Cullen the Risen. The dreadnought makes them basically impossible to beat in a 1 on 1 basis now unless you’re a monster of some sort.

Well if they were any good they wouldn't have been killed and put into a dreadnought chassis, would they? Let's say that they're disqualified the same way that Abaddon is, for performance-enhancers.

Tiberias wrote:
I am sorry but I refuse to acknowledge that scene from the outcast dead. There is no way, no way that an unarmored world eater punches through a custodes auramite armor. It is just stupid and inconsistent storytelling at its finest and I really dislike that book for it.
I know all of 40k is just fiction but I am a huge advocate for consistency within the rules of that universe as it has been set up by the writers and that scene from the outcast dead is a prime example of throwing that consistency right out the window.

Fair enough! To each their own. There's a lot of inconsistencies in The Outcast Dead. A big one is that the Thousand Sons get Space Wolfed after the Heresy starts. I think it's a great book that uses the trappings of the 40k universe. I'd recommend it to someone who had never heard of 40K, even. But - even so, I think it adds a lot to Horus Heresy Terra, even Great Crusade era Terra. I loved all the bits about the Thunder Warriors. But, GW's line is always "Everything is canon, but not everything is true." So the feats of the Crusader Host, Tagore included, could have been exaggerated by the mortals who observed them.

But given that Tagore only shows up in one book, that's the only book we have to go on. So that makes it official. Tagore is best Astartes. Fight me.

The dreadnoughts were a more tongue and cheek answer since it’s really not them fighting anymore. If you include them than technically Chronus in a tank should be the best in a 1v1 battle. Still funny to think about some marine walking up with a master crafted power sword only to get a siege drill to the face. Do we know why put Bjorn in a dreadnought?

So right now we have Abbadon, Sevatar, and Sigsmund on our tier 1 level. I’d say you count put Dante here as well.

Tier 2 you could put Kharn, Calgar, and Belial?

Tier 3 would be Lucius?

Tier 4 would be a generic captain?

It doesn’t have to be set at four that just seemed to be the best way to break it down for now

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The dreadnoughts were a more tongue and cheek answer since it’s really not them fighting anymore. If you include them than technically Chronus in a tank should be the best in a 1v1 battle. Still funny to think about some marine walking up with a master crafted power sword only to get a siege drill to the face. Do we know why put Bjorn in a dreadnought?

I dig it. I was just having a bit of fun. I do not know why Bjorn was put in a dreadnought, unfortunately. I'm not a big Space Wolf fan and am very ignorant of their lore.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So right now we have Abbadon, Sevatar, and Sigsmund on our tier 1 level. I’d say you count put Dante here as well.

Tier 2 you could put Kharn, Calgar, and Belial?

Tier 3 would be Lucius?

Tier 4 would be a generic captain?

It doesn’t have to be set at four that just seemed to be the best way to break it down for now

I agree with you for the most part. I haven't gotten to the HH novels where Sevatar is yet (other than a very brief mention in The First Heretic), in which books does he particularly distinguish himself?

I would vote to move Kharn up to Tier 1, in this very scientific and peer-reviewed ranking. Heresy-era Kharn was very capable as both a commander and soldier. When he was gripped by the Butcher's Nails, he and the entire World Eaters legion suffered for strategy - but no matter how far into it he got, he only ever died the one time!

One thing I'm thinking about is how do we square these different lines of evidence? The way I see it, we have three main sources: fluff from splatbooks and codecies, Black Library novels and short stories, and 1st through 8th edition profiles. My vote would be to disregard the actual profiles associated with each character, because the game does not represent the actual capabilities of Astartes, loyalist or otherwise. Further, I feel that novels represent an interpretation of the canon, in whatever esteem you hold the capricious and contradictory 40k canon, that can be used to supplement fluff-based arguments. I think that the best source would be the fluff from splatbooks and codecies, because it is presented as history - biased, yes, and often implicitly biased, but the general silhouette of the 40k universe can in my opinion be divined from these sources - with the novels and novellas best treated as an individual creative's interpretation of existing fluff (because the codecies are always completely objective and not at all biased by the writer; sensue Ward 2008).

In terms of combat potential, I think we should evaluate ability first by fluff, second by literature, and only third by game profile, if at all (and no one else in this thread has brought up game profiles, so I'm not sure why I did, either). But where does that lead those characters that only appear in the Black Library, such as, for example, Tagore? That's a question for another day.

This is a really fun thread. Haven't gotten to nerd out like this in a while. Apparently I've invested very heavily in Tagore. I'm not entirely sure why, but at this point I'm committed to the bit.