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 Platuan4th wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Stick with passion projects like Astartes and Death of Hope. If GW instead just threw money at those guys, that would be ok.

That's what the CGI Blood Angels show they're doing is.

You guys just keep mentioning the stuff GW is literally already working on as the stuff that should happen.

GW also made the Ultramarines movie, which even for the time looked awful. There's a lot of problems a GW made product can have vs a fan made product.

Just as an example Astartes looks as good as it does because its dark as hell and the shadows and colour palette are all chosen to hide the fact that its not perfect, but its so well made that the darkness contributes heavily to the mood and atmosphere. The space marines are a bit off model and they aren't particularly as ornate as GW likes to present them.

Now a GW venture might demand of the animators that all space marines are bedecked in full ornamentation, 100% model accurate and be shown in full lighting at all times. This results in a LOT of work to male sure objects don't clip through each other, you don't see seams in the 3D model, animating something as weirdly proportioned as a space marine etc. All problems the guy making Astartes doesn't have or can hide in some way because he doesn't answer to anyone.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It would need to be on a channel with no censorship. I don't want to see pg13 40k.

Yes, but it has to be bloody/gory/violent for the sake of the story, not for the sake of pure grimdark. The first Death of Hope episode made the latter mistake, and in my opinion it's pretty bad. It could have been good if he'd given us something to hold onto during all of it, but just seeing pain, death, and suffering for the sake of grimdark isn't great for entertainment. It's like comparing Saving Private Ryan to something like Saw.

That said, there's a lot of great 40k stuff coming out now or soon. We've got Astartes, Death of Hope (which I still have hope for), Angels of Death, supposedly an Eisenhorn TV show, and that animated one they showed off 2 reveals back. I'm very pumped.

Death of Hope was establishing the atmosphere on a Word Bearers ship in the warp during one of the bloodiest campaigns in the Heresy. We're you expecting rainbows and unicorns?

Modern 40k fans, yes, they are. There is a reason why Death of Hope thanked the long time fans who remember and want the old Grimdark and over the top elements.

I wouldn't mind a netflix show called "Grimdark" which narrated the events of Earth leading up to 30k and starting there.

It's a very tricky proposition.
There's lots of silly stuff in 40k that fans love but I think mainstream audiences would struggle with, orks, for example. There's the fact that the "good guys", as most fans would perceive the space marines to be, are religious zealot, borderline Nazis who kill the citizenry without a second thought. The fact it's going to need big budgets to not look cheap and could still look silly even with big budgets.
I think it's taking the right approach so far, animation suits the genre well and it's preaching to its core audience with the hope of bringing in other geekier fans like say a castlevania show has.

The polls lack of a Whip-it option disapoints.

 kingheff wrote:
It's a very tricky proposition.
There's lots of silly stuff in 40k that fans love but I think mainstream audiences would struggle with, orks, for example. There's the fact that the "good guys", as most fans would perceive the space marines to be, are religious zealot, borderline Nazis who kill the citizenry without a second thought. The fact it's going to need big budgets to not look cheap and could still look silly even with big budgets.
I think it's taking the right approach so far, animation suits the genre well and it's preaching to its core audience with the hope of bringing in other geekier fans like say a castlevania show has.

I wonder if that's why they're starting with two separate shows - "Hammer and Bolter" as the introductory anthology show, and "Angels of Death" as a more in-depth one.

There should, but it shall be introduced as a slow-motion vignette of violence with Frank Sinatra singing "Send in the Clowns".

This would fit with a modern audience's post-modern sensibilities.

More seriously, though, the key to a good show would be if they can balance out the exposition for the setting without either leaving people clueless from mindless action or over-loading them with boring dialogue. Taking the time to consider the best method of information delivery in what is, primarily, a visual medium, is one of the hardest aspects to get right and this difficulty only increases as the premise becomes more esoteric.

I hope they take their time and do it right, weaving that special magic which can turn a book's worth of understanding into a 4 minute scene with a meaningful edge, which stays with you.

Gadzilla666 wrote: It would need to be on a channel with no censorship. I don't want to see pg13 40k.

I don't see why it wouldn't be PG13 actually. I mean like, what is there that's actually all that R-Rated to show? Just some Slaanesh stuff, really. At least in the USA, fantasy violence and war is pretty generally acceptable for teen viewing.

Underwear or horror violence are r-rated, but at this point in time, sequences like the opening of Dawn of War or things in Space Marine would definitely not be.

Aash wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

IacobusIgnavus wrote:
I was thinking that it would be really cool to have an animated TV show based on the Horus Heresy Novels, like animated in the sense of Astartes or The Lord Inquisitor if you've followed those, not like Star wars the Clone Wars or Rebels. I also think Henry Cavill could play Horus Lupercal, with like a mocap of his face. Opinions?

I think it would pretty cool to have an 40k tv short series, animated or live action... but not 30k.

I definitely think following a modern Inquisitor or Rogue Trader or other such independent and diversely skilled operative party would make a better TV program, since there's a lot more diverse material to work with to keep making shorter contained stories about, and you could visit and showcase most of the 40k universe.

Having read your post about a rogue trader made me think a 40k version of Firefly following a rogue trader and their ragtag crew could be really cool.

Definitely. A Rogue Trader exploring the stars would be a way better premise for the TV show than the Horus Heresy. As I said, it gives the freedom to go anywhere in the 40k universe and showcase all of it and lends itself very well to adventure-of-the-week tv programming. And there's so much stuff for them to do, there's definitely not much of a risk of repeating plots.

I think a SM or IG based program like Clone Wars would also work, but there's not as much room to have the like two-thirds of the series that's not about actually having grand set-piece battles against the droids.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: It would need to be on a channel with no censorship. I don't want to see pg13 40k.

I don't see why it wouldn't be PG13 actually. I mean like, what is there that's actually all that R-Rated to show? Just some Slaanesh stuff, really. At least in the USA, fantasy violence and war is pretty generally acceptable for teen viewing.

Underwear or horror violence are r-rated, but at this point in time, sequences like the opening of Dawn of War or things in Space Marine would definitely not be.

Weapons like bolters and chain weapons would definitely require an R rating to be represented.

And factions like Dark Eldar or the Night Lords (who are obviously who I'd want to see) definitely fall in the horror category.

If they make it more like Astartes and less like Death of Hope, I'll be more than happy.

I trust the team to do an admirable job on Angels of Death. I'm pleasantly intrigued by Hammer and Bolter. I don't know enough about anything else to comment. I think GW absolutely have the material and talent to make some good 40k media, and it's important to note that 40k media doesn't need to be ultraviolent and pornographically grimdark to be loved.

Gaunt's Ghosts isn't excessively grimdark (no worse than something like GoT or Band of Brothers), and Astartes, despite being quite clean visually and avoiding overly gratuitous violence, seems to be better received than many other pieces of 40k media, fan-made or not. 40k's strength is that the universe is so big, you can tell a LOT of stories in it.

A science-horror in the vein of something like Alien or The Thing? Story following some Imperial biologicians or Inquisitorial acolytes.
Band of Brothers war story? Guardsmen.
Big epic scale character driven stories? Adapt the Heresy.
Humourous cartoon sketch? Orks.
Prodecural/episodic "defeat the evil bad guys"? Inquisitors.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: It would need to be on a channel with no censorship. I don't want to see pg13 40k.

I don't see why it wouldn't be PG13 actually. I mean like, what is there that's actually all that R-Rated to show? Just some Slaanesh stuff, really. At least in the USA, fantasy violence and war is pretty generally acceptable for teen viewing.

Underwear or horror violence are r-rated, but at this point in time, sequences like the opening of Dawn of War or things in Space Marine would definitely not be.

Weapons like bolters and chain weapons would definitely require an R rating to be represented.

Astartes does well with it's bolter depictions. R+ rating, sure, but it doesn't need to be hyper-graphic.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no, because they would cockerel it up. Magnus would be gingercided, Malcador would be gender swapped, everything would be sanitised and dumbed down for the masses, they'd probably pronounce Russ as Roose and Angron and Ahhhngrun.

Stick with passion projects like Astartes and Death of Hope. If GW instead just threw money at those guys, that would be ok.

At first I was thinking that a gender swap of Malcador would be terrible. Then I remembered he was invented for the HH book series and has no real importance to the “real” lore of 40k. Then I considered that there was an awful lot of sausage with very little k’nish in the HH series. Now I kind of think gender swapping Malcador might not be such a bad idea, considering he was never an Astarte or Custode...and as far as I know does not need to pass himself off as the Emperor (without the use of psionics). Is there any plot point in the HH series that requires him to have a doodle?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, no, because they would cockerel it up. Magnus would be gingercided, Malcador would be gender swapped, everything would be sanitised and dumbed down for the masses, they'd probably pronounce Russ as Roose and Angron and Ahhhngrun.

Stick with passion projects like Astartes and Death of Hope. If GW instead just threw money at those guys, that would be ok.

At first I was thinking that a gender swap of Malcador would be terrible. Then I remembered he was invented for the HH book series and has no real importance to the “real” lore of 40k. Then I considered that there was an awful lot of sausage with very little k’nish in the HH series. Now I kind of think gender swapping Malcador might not be such a bad idea, considering he was never an Astarte or Custode...and as far as I know does not need to pass himself off as the Emperor (without the use of psionics). Is there any plot point in the HH series that requires him to have a doodle?

Honestly, depending on how in depth they want to take the Heresy, they could combine the characters of Malcador and Amar Astarte. If they're not going to tackle much about the end of the Unification Wars, there's no need to detail what happens to Astarte in the books, so they could combine the characters.

Similarly, give Tarasha Euten a larger role in the Unremembered Empire/Shadow Crusade portion, give Lotara Sarrin more influence (as in, perhaps even make her the overall commander of the World Eaters under Angron and Kharn's authority during the Shadow Crusade), and when talking about the first three books, make sure Oliton and Keeler are given some strong spotlights. Arguably, Oliton should be more of a "protagonist"/audience lens than any Space Marine, at least, during the start of the Heresy.

Doing a tv series on the horus heresy is a massive mistake.

The game is not set then, GW's mainstream products are mostly for the 41st millennium. As much as fans like the HH, it's not the focus of 40k, but its history. Might as well ask for a War in Heaven series.

As a prequel series to show how the 41st millennium got to be the way it is? Sure, but the worst thing you could do in introducing the mainstream to a product is take an historical event as your main thrust.

Which is why Eisenhorn makes so much sense. It's mostly about people, it tastes the xenos and chaos without going full blown armageddon or Tyran.

It is a perfect entry story into the universe as it currently is.


I think one of the biggest mistakes GW made was following the money down the HH rabbit hole, because they then had to continually invent stuff that was never there to keep padding it out. They had to to put personalities on mythic beings, they had to disappoint everyone that their fav primarch wasn't as cool as they believed.

In some ways they fleshed out the 31st millennium more than the current one, muddying the setting and splitting their direction.

You can really tell that the modern HH was built with novels because it is completely character-centric. Everything turns on their actions. Now obviously Horus himself had a hand to play and the emperor, that was never in doubt. But the books created new characters to follow and turn the narrative on around this.

40k and the HH before the novelisation was very much a setting where the universe happened and characters were swept along with it.

HH has a very different flavour of a galaxy turning on the actions of a few characters.

personally, I don't like that, because it shrinks everything to fit the actions of those characters. We see it now with the PA books and all the characters, like Gaz teleporting around the galaxy in order to be present for orks, rather than just letting them be a threat by themselves.


Basically, GW would be foolish to use the HH as its foray into tv as it is nothing like the current setting and would confuse or annoy the new fans it's trying to court.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: It would need to be on a channel with no censorship. I don't want to see pg13 40k.

I don't see why it wouldn't be PG13 actually. I mean like, what is there that's actually all that R-Rated to show? Just some Slaanesh stuff, really. At least in the USA, fantasy violence and war is pretty generally acceptable for teen viewing.

Underwear or horror violence are r-rated, but at this point in time, sequences like the opening of Dawn of War or things in Space Marine would definitely not be.

Weapons like bolters and chain weapons would definitely require an R rating to be represented.

And factions like Dark Eldar or the Night Lords (who are obviously who I'd want to see) definitely fall in the horror category.

Bothers and chainswords definitely wouldn't be R-Rated. Depictions of intense violence and fantasy violence are permissible under the PG13 rating [so basically 40k]. If it's not like intended to be traumatic or realistic, it'll fly, usually. That said, the standards aren't really consistent, but. I don't imagine 40k getting higher than a PG-13 unless you really go needlessly out of your way to fixate on blood and gore [which, I'm going to be honest, doesn't need to be done].

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: It would need to be on a channel with no censorship. I don't want to see pg13 40k.

I don't see why it wouldn't be PG13 actually. I mean like, what is there that's actually all that R-Rated to show? Just some Slaanesh stuff, really. At least in the USA, fantasy violence and war is pretty generally acceptable for teen viewing.

Underwear or horror violence are r-rated, but at this point in time, sequences like the opening of Dawn of War or things in Space Marine would definitely not be.

Weapons like bolters and chain weapons would definitely require an R rating to be represented.

And factions like Dark Eldar or the Night Lords (who are obviously who I'd want to see) definitely fall in the horror category.

Bothers and chainswords definitely wouldn't be R-Rated. Depictions of intense violence and fantasy violence are permissible under the PG13 rating [so basically 40k]. If it's not like intended to be traumatic or realistic, it'll fly, usually. That said, the standards aren't really consistent, but. I don't imagine 40k getting higher than a PG-13 unless you really go needlessly out of your way to fixate on blood and gore [which, I'm going to be honest, doesn't need to be done].

No, I don't think blood and gore should be fixated on either. I just don't see how chainsaw derived weapons and bolters could be depicted in pg13. The closest thing to bolters in a movie I can think of is Terry Crews' shotguns in the Expendables, and when I think chainsaws I think of Evil Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Don't know how you make stuff like that pg13.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Astartes does well with it's bolter depictions. R+ rating, sure, but it doesn't need to be hyper-graphic.

That's what I said, R rating, not hyper-graphic.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I don't think blood and gore should be fixated on either. I just don't see how chainsaw derived weapons and bolters could be depicted in pg13.

If they're attacking things without obvious blood and gore, it works. Think Necrons?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Astartes does well with it's bolter depictions. R+ rating, sure, but it doesn't need to be hyper-graphic.

That's what I said, R rating, not hyper-graphic.

I'm not sure Astartes is R+ rated? I think it has a few moments of guts and gore in one of the first scenes, but a lot of the damage seems implied, not exactly focused on. It's not advertiser friendly on YT, but then, what is these days?

Bothers and chainswords definitely wouldn't be R-Rated. Depictions of intense violence and fantasy violence are permissible under the PG13 rating [so basically 40k]. If it's not like intended to be traumatic or realistic, it'll fly, usually. That said, the standards aren't really consistent, but. I don't imagine 40k getting higher than a PG-13 unless you really go needlessly out of your way to fixate on blood and gore [which, I'm going to be honest, doesn't need to be done].

I think for 40k combat to be good it needs to be at least on the level of a Spielberg war movie.

No, I don't think blood and gore should be fixated on either. I just don't see how chainsaw derived weapons and bolters could be depicted in pg13. The closest thing to bolters in a movie I can think of is Terry Crews' shotguns in the Expendables, and when I think chainsaws I think of Evil Dead and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Don't know how you make stuff like that pg13.

This. Admittedly, I wasn't around during what was apparently the grimdark old days, but in my opinion loads of violence is fine, or even good, as long as it's not gratuitous. Yes, they should definitely make chainswords, bolters, and so forth just as nasty as they really are, but no nastier (killing someone with a chainsword is bloody, but pretty quick). IMO Astartes is a little too clean, Death of Hope has a good level of violence, I just take issue with the use of it, but then I'm not one of the old guard.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
No, I don't think blood and gore should be fixated on either. I just don't see how chainsaw derived weapons and bolters could be depicted in pg13.

If they're attacking things without obvious blood and gore, it works. Think Necrons?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Astartes does well with it's bolter depictions. R+ rating, sure, but it doesn't need to be hyper-graphic.

That's what I said, R rating, not hyper-graphic.

I'm not sure Astartes is R+ rated? I think it has a few moments of guts and gore in one of the first scenes, but a lot of the damage seems implied, not exactly focused on. It's not advertiser friendly on YT, but then, what is these days?

Ok, I "forced" myself to watch Astartes again (ok, I'll take any excuse to watch it) and you may be right if you ignore the exploding head and arm being blown off in the boarding scene and the human torso falling to the decking complete with entrails during the running battle in the corridors. But yeah, cut that out and maybe you could pull off a pg13 rating.

And yeah, if the only thing the protagonists need to kill is Necrons it would help. Tyranids would probably be ok, as bug blood usually doesn't bother censors. But is that all fans would want? Surely people would want to see other factions. I'm not saying a 40k show should be a Saw movie, but I would at least expect it to be as gritty as say, Ash vs Evil Dead or Preacher. If it's animated I'd say Hellsing Ultimate or Akira would be good examples.

I'd love to see a warhammer TV show...just not anything I know GW will actually make.

What I'd love to see is a Black Mirror/Outer Limits/LoveDeath&Robots style cerebral adventure, episodic, often with sad or disturbing or just unexplained endings, exploring what it means to be a truly self-fulfilled Ork and at home among a galaxy at war, the plight of a Hab worker caught in an uprising who can neither seek safety with the Imperial authorities (who see nobody as innocent) yet rightfully terrified and on the run from cultists and just at the last moment accepts the gifts of chaos and a brief glimpse of immense power is witnessed, the last hour of life of an Aspect Warrior in the face of the Great Enemy, the tortured yet wholly willing existence of a Traitor Legionnaire who has known nothing but hatred and vengeance for literal millennia and gladly sacrificed their sanity in barter with the powers of Chaos to empower their pursuit of revenge against the Corpse Emperor, the crushing weight of the reality of endless war on a Guard trooper who has just come through a grueling years long campaign with billions dead only to be immediately shipped out to another war just as terrible and knowing it will never end, or following a slice of the Doom Rider's existence as he bikes through the varied realms of reality and unreality doing as he pleases and the weirdness that entails.

What we'll actually get is a lot of screaming "for the emperor!" with hammers being tossed about and gobs of automatic bolter fire, pulp gunfire porn at its finest.

SirGunslinger 787642 10779696 wrote:
This. Admittedly, I wasn't around during what was apparently the grimdark old days, but in my opinion loads of violence is fine, or even good, as long as it's not gratuitous. Yes, they should definitely make chainswords, bolters, and so forth just as nasty as they really are, but no nastier (killing someone with a chainsword is bloody, but pretty quick). IMO Astartes is a little too clean, Death of Hope has a good level of violence, I just take issue with the use of it, but then I'm not one of the old guard.

If chainswords are anything like modern day butchering implements, then the term quick is going to be very relative. My granddad could fix a cow or a pig in under a few minutes, but those were dead things hanging off a hook. Going through a living thing could take a minute or so, assuming no armour, and I doubt any TV should would want to show one minute of someone chainsawing in to stuff.

A lot of people are saying they are ok with violence so long as it’s not gratuitous... isn’t that the point. 40k started off as a satire and grim dark was very grim and very dark. The chain swords and bolters were the signature weapons precisely because they are gratuitously violent and to emphasise the overkill.

That being said, I don’t see why a less graphic and less violent tv show based on 40k wouldn’t work. The universe is large enough and the setting has changed enough over the years to make room for all sorts of things. An awful lot of the early stuff ( loads in 2nd ed) was done purely for comedic effect. A show, especially could totally go down this route whether live action or animated. A 40k version of Red Dwarf if you will.

Equally an out an out horror could work a la Event Horizon. A political sci-fi thriller- GoT meets Dune. Rogue trader adventure alone against the universe - Firefly. Kids friendly sci-fi cartoon adventure- 90s x-men. Animated dark and violent adult comedy - Metalocalypse. Live action adult drama along the lines of The Witcher seems a decent fit for the upcoming Eisenhorn adaptation. Live action sci-fi war movie- Starship Troopers. The list is endless.

As I mentioned previously there will probably be a few misfires in the initial attempts but I think that’s ok, and should be expected. Also as with any adaptation there are going to be changes from the source material, some things work better in certain media, and advertising revenue has to be considered. On top of that, the source material has been changing ever since 1987.

Personally I welcome the upcoming adaptations and although don’t expect a whole lot I am hopeful! Maybe not with these adaptations but perhaps further down the road.

As for the fan projects that have been made and people keep comparing against. They simply aren’t very good imho. Oh I appreciate the effort that’s gone into them and all, but they really aren’t fully developed tv shows. They are sizzle reels and mood pieces and nothing more. At most a proof of concept. If something like that was to be realised and endorsed as an official product it would be no more successful and make no more impact than the very poor Ultramarines movie from a few years ago.

I think it would be cool if they had a miniseries set in a space hulk.