Advice on starting

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**Martel732**

I didn't suggest that.

**Jidmah**

Not by spelling it out, but the intent is clearly there.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that starting WH40k was a mistake for you - and there is nothing wrong with that. I have come to the same conclusion during 7th and dropped the game and never intended to return. Boy, was I wrong

The thing is, your suggestions are very much aimed at protecting others from making the same mistake, but starting 40k is not a mistake by itself.

There are a couple of things people starting out need to be made aware of - and I do whenever I bring people to the hobby I do, especially considering rules quality and support, expenses and time and work required to get new units ready for play.
But telling them that GW is a clusterfeth that will definitely feth up the game at every possible chance? Neither true nor helpful.

**Martel732**

GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

**Overread**

Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

So why are you still here?
Honest question, if you've not enjoyed the game for three whole editions and consider that GW overcharges (ergo that models are not worth the money you pay for them); why are you still here? Sure Dakka deals in loads of other games, but why are you here in a thread about introducing new people and welcoming them into the 40K hobby?

I'm not asking that to insult you, but perhaps to make you pause and question yourself.

I've seen plenty of cases (esp online where remaining part of a community is effortless and requires no energy to partake in - unlike going to the local club). Where people have moved on from a hobby or game or company or brand for a multitude of reasons. Yet they still remain in those social groups and they also tend to act more and more negative. Mostly its because there's a growing divide between them and the rest of the community they are interacting with. The community, by and large, recognises the negative, but is not wallowing in the negative and is enjoying the positive and is promoting and welcoming others. Meanwhile the person who has moved on (without perhaps realising it themselves) is pushing at the negative sides more and more - venting frustrations. In the worst cases the venting turns to anger and aggression against other members.

Sometimes you've got to stop and take stock in your direction and focus. Perhaps its time to put aside threads on getting started in 40K and threads in 40K game in general and perhaps start your own or move onto other games that you are interested in. To put aside the venting and justification to leave and instead focus on the positives of other games. Got into Warmachine - or Dropfleet or whatever then go post about that. Welcome others into those games; encourage them; post photos of your models; battle reports; engage in the latest news and promotions etc...

IT might sound odd but sometimes that can really really help you mentally move on and also find the fun and joy in the hobby in general.

**Sentineil**

Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

Well thanks for hanging around the community spreading your positivity!

Such a pleasant ray of sunshine. If only every new player had someone like you to teach them the ropes!

**GangstaMuffin24**

Overread wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

So why are you still here?

I've been waiting for someone to ask that question for some time now...

**Martel732**

Sentineil wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

Well thanks for hanging around the community spreading your positivity!

Such a pleasant ray of sunshine. If only every new player had someone like you to teach them the ropes!

Nah, I left that to the IG player who conned everyone into playing fluffy lists against him then gunlined them off the table mercilessly. But he had a great and fluffy attitude about him!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Overread wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

So why are you still here?
Honest question, if you've not enjoyed the game for three whole editions and consider that GW overcharges (ergo that models are not worth the money you pay for them); why are you still here? Sure Dakka deals in loads of other games, but why are you here in a thread about introducing new people and welcoming them into the 40K hobby?

I'm not asking that to insult you, but perhaps to make you pause and question yourself.

I've seen plenty of cases (esp online where remaining part of a community is effortless and requires no energy to partake in - unlike going to the local club). Where people have moved on from a hobby or game or company or brand for a multitude of reasons. Yet they still remain in those social groups and they also tend to act more and more negative. Mostly its because there's a growing divide between them and the rest of the community they are interacting with. The community, by and large, recognises the negative, but is not wallowing in the negative and is enjoying the positive and is promoting and welcoming others. Meanwhile the person who has moved on (without perhaps realising it themselves) is pushing at the negative sides more and more - venting frustrations. In the worst cases the venting turns to anger and aggression against other members.

Sometimes you've got to stop and take stock in your direction and focus. Perhaps its time to put aside threads on getting started in 40K and threads in 40K game in general and perhaps start your own or move onto other games that you are interested in. To put aside the venting and justification to leave and instead focus on the positives of other games. Got into Warmachine - or Dropfleet or whatever then go post about that. Welcome others into those games; encourage them; post photos of your models; battle reports; engage in the latest news and promotions etc...

IT might sound odd but sometimes that can really really help you mentally move on and also find the fun and joy in the hobby in general.

Yeah, I'm probably done playing live games of 8th. Even when its permitted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Overread wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

So why are you still here?

I've been waiting for someone to ask that question for some time now...

It's been asked before.

**ccs**

Martel732 wrote:
Sentineil wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

Well thanks for hanging around the community spreading your positivity!

Such a pleasant ray of sunshine. If only every new player had someone like you to teach them the ropes!

Nah, I left that to the IG player who conned everyone into playing fluffy lists against him then gunlined them off the table mercilessly. But he had a great and fluffy attitude about him!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Overread wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

So why are you still here?
Honest question, if you've not enjoyed the game for three whole editions and consider that GW overcharges (ergo that models are not worth the money you pay for them); why are you still here? Sure Dakka deals in loads of other games, but why are you here in a thread about introducing new people and welcoming them into the 40K hobby?

I'm not asking that to insult you, but perhaps to make you pause and question yourself.

I've seen plenty of cases (esp online where remaining part of a community is effortless and requires no energy to partake in - unlike going to the local club). Where people have moved on from a hobby or game or company or brand for a multitude of reasons. Yet they still remain in those social groups and they also tend to act more and more negative. Mostly its because there's a growing divide between them and the rest of the community they are interacting with. The community, by and large, recognises the negative, but is not wallowing in the negative and is enjoying the positive and is promoting and welcoming others. Meanwhile the person who has moved on (without perhaps realising it themselves) is pushing at the negative sides more and more - venting frustrations. In the worst cases the venting turns to anger and aggression against other members.

Sometimes you've got to stop and take stock in your direction and focus. Perhaps its time to put aside threads on getting started in 40K and threads in 40K game in general and perhaps start your own or move onto other games that you are interested in. To put aside the venting and justification to leave and instead focus on the positives of other games. Got into Warmachine - or Dropfleet or whatever then go post about that. Welcome others into those games; encourage them; post photos of your models; battle reports; engage in the latest news and promotions etc...

IT might sound odd but sometimes that can really really help you mentally move on and also find the fun and joy in the hobby in general.

Yeah, I'm probably done playing live games of 8th. Even when its permitted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Overread wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
GW is a gak company run by fools. They love to randomly shelve models intentionally AND unintentionally.

As for mistake? I liked two editions, but not the last three. So I don't know. I think GW overcharges badly for almost everything, as well.

So why are you still here?

I've been waiting for someone to ask that question for some time now...

It's been asked before.

But not answered....

**Martel732**

I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.

**Overread**

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.

Perhaps think of things the other way around - what game are you/hoping/wanting to play?

Another wargame - an RPG with models - or perhaps you don't even want models and want something else?

Think not about what you don't like and where you are not going, but instead what you want and where you are heading for.

**TangoTwoBravo**

I would think that we would want our local player base to grow, and that we would encourage new players rather than discourage them. This doesn't mean trying to sell them the hobby, but providing a positive experience. I've seen a few scenarios, and you should usually take a handicap without making it obvious. Take an underpowered list but play smart to set an example of game play:

Tutorial Game for a Friend. You select the forces from your collection and come up with a scenario that highlights the features of the game in a fun way. Your friend should win. The forces/mission should be tilted in your friend's favour so that he prevails even though you play your troops intelligently. There should be moving, shooting and melee. Alternatively, you "GM" two friends through the game where the forces are equal and you are happy as long as they learn the rules.

First Game for a Stranger. Lets say your group has a message board and a new player comes on asking for a game. He says its his first game of 40K and that he has 1000 points of Space Marines from the starter set. You agree and come up with an underpowered list where you play intelligently but he has an advantage. Avoid wombo-combos and alpha-strikes. He probably wins, has a positive experience and learns the rules. You can then start to ratchet it up - like a training montage from a movie.

Open Game Night. This time the new player shows up to Open Gaming night with a 2000 point list drawn from the starter set and says he is looking for his first real game before the tournament next week that he's already signed up for. This is tough. Be honest up front and play as you would but take the time to explain the finer points of the game/rules.

Tournament. Your opponent announces that its his first game of 40K. Its a tournament, so I guess you have to go ahead and do your thing but do your best to be a good sport and provide mentorship without condescension. I've been the guy playing his first game of an edition in a tournament setting, my first Flames of War game was in a tournament and my first AOS game was in a tournament. I knew what i was getting into and did my best not to hamper my opponent with dumb questions while getting smoked.

As for an interested onlooker asking about how to get started in the hobby, its fine to point out the costs but they are interested and its not like you are pushing some illicit substance. If you wouldn't recommend the game why would you play it in the first place? I've also seen one of our few AOS regulars utterly crush a kid in a pickup game. The kid had two 1st Edition starter sets put together of Stormcasts while the experienced player had tooled up Flesh Eater Courts. Kid barely got to do anything, looked utterly downcast and I've never seen him since. Not how we grow our gaming group.

**Slipspace**

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.

So why the feth are you posting in a thread specifically about starting 40k and being about as negative as it's possible to be? I'm not the greatest fan of 8th and think it's a particularly bad game to try to play competitively but I still play it for other reasons, including social and the background for the game and the fact that two players who are on the same wavelength can actually have quite an enjoyable experience. I also see possibilities for the game to vastly improve from the too-simplistic framework it currently uses into something a lot more interesting (though think it's unlikely GW will take it in that direction).

So when a new player shows up I'm not going to discuss the cut-throat world of top-level competitive 40k unless they specifically bring that up. The vast, vast majority of players have no interest in playing in tournaments and even if they do it's usually not something a brand new player is interested in for a good while anyway. If a player expresses and interest in an army I'll encourage that interest but temper their expectation accordingly. Someone who really wants an all-Terminator SM army, for example, will probably need to be made aware that they'll struggle to win with that force but there are ways to do that without just telling them 40k's terrible and they shouldn't bother playing.

**aphyon**

Advice on starting

Don't,

That's my gut reaction when it comes to GW prices...but i learned that after building 7 different armies, then switching to other systems for variety so........

That being said
>step 1
pick a faction
>step 2
buy/read the codex and core rules
>step 3
make an army list, get imput from veteran players if you can about unit types and the kind of army/player you want to be
>step 4
buy only the units you need for your specific army list..a little at a time. building up to a full 40K army goes alot smoother if you take it in small doses.
>step 5
assemble and paint what you have before you buy additional units.(you always get better with practice so don't kill yourself if you are not a pro painter from the start there are tons of videos online on techniques you can learn over time.)

As for paints and brushes

I use krylon for plastics paints for base colors/primers-found at most stores like walmart or target (and comparatively cheap compared to GW sprays), walmart has a fine selection of very nice brush packs that are far cheaper than any GW or game store charges, as for detail paints i am a huge fan of vallejo model color paints. the eye dropper style tops allow you to put a little bit of paint on your paint pallete and not dry out the open flip tops like GW paints.

**Ginjitzu**

My only advice for starting, is to start small, and thankfully, you've already done just that by buying what you've bought.

I'm sure someone else has explained the whole Primaris thing to you better than I could already. I just want to ask, where on Craggy Island are you? If you're anywhere near Galway, I'd love to give you a game sometime in the Autumn.

Oh! One more thing: if you're inventing your own chapter, don't invent your own colour scheme! Find one that you like online and copy it. Learning to paint is hard enough when you're following a scheme someone has already tested; it's damn near impossible if you're making it up yourself.

**Martel732**

Slipspace wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.

So why the feth are you posting in a thread specifically about starting 40k and being about as negative as it's possible to be? I'm not the greatest fan of 8th and think it's a particularly bad game to try to play competitively but I still play it for other reasons, including social and the background for the game and the fact that two players who are on the same wavelength can actually have quite an enjoyable experience. I also see possibilities for the game to vastly improve from the too-simplistic framework it currently uses into something a lot more interesting (though think it's unlikely GW will take it in that direction).

So when a new player shows up I'm not going to discuss the cut-throat world of top-level competitive 40k unless they specifically bring that up. The vast, vast majority of players have no interest in playing in tournaments and even if they do it's usually not something a brand new player is interested in for a good while anyway. If a player expresses and interest in an army I'll encourage that interest but temper their expectation accordingly. Someone who really wants an all-Terminator SM army, for example, will probably need to be made aware that they'll struggle to win with that force but there are ways to do that without just telling them 40k's terrible and they shouldn't bother playing.

I could be way MORE negative, trust me. Let me clarify. I don't think its fair at all to only discuss the positives like a salesman.

**aphyon**

Martel732 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.

So why the feth are you posting in a thread specifically about starting 40k and being about as negative as it's possible to be? I'm not the greatest fan of 8th and think it's a particularly bad game to try to play competitively but I still play it for other reasons, including social and the background for the game and the fact that two players who are on the same wavelength can actually have quite an enjoyable experience. I also see possibilities for the game to vastly improve from the too-simplistic framework it currently uses into something a lot more interesting (though think it's unlikely GW will take it in that direction).

So when a new player shows up I'm not going to discuss the cut-throat world of top-level competitive 40k unless they specifically bring that up. The vast, vast majority of players have no interest in playing in tournaments and even if they do it's usually not something a brand new player is interested in for a good while anyway. If a player expresses and interest in an army I'll encourage that interest but temper their expectation accordingly. Someone who really wants an all-Terminator SM army, for example, will probably need to be made aware that they'll struggle to win with that force but there are ways to do that without just telling them 40k's terrible and they shouldn't bother playing.

I could be way MORE negative, trust me. Let me clarify. I don't think its fair at all to only discuss the positives like a salesman.

I am sure many of us could be way more negative GW invokes that in gamers because of their past behavior with rules writing and prices. we love the 40K universe, and GW makes fine miniatures but taking this topic with a bit of humor is the way i approach it since i play something like 10 different systems that are all pretty much better written and have better rules mechanics than 8th ed 40K.

**Togusa**

Karol wrote:
Togusa wrote:

No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.

Aha, so it is a few tutorial games, they spend 300-400$. Play and then they get the teeth kicking, which by the way seems an odd thing to do post game.
I would rather see the game how it is day one in my first game, rather then find it out later one and be told by someone like Ishagu, that I picked a wrong army or wrong units to play when I was buying them.

Alpha male toxicity is one of the underlying causes of school violence. In a sports school, I would imagine that its omnipresent, and it's difficult to step back and see it for what it is, because within the microcosm, everyone is a part of the culture.

If you act violent at a sports school, you get a warrning maybe twice. And if you keep it up or endanger someone durning training, specialy a ranker you just get kicked out school. this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard about sports schools being said. I did got to normal schools before for 6 years. In sports schools you don't get older kids beating or stealing from younger kids, because everyone is too busy with their training, and if someone was stupid enough to try it , they get kicked out. And no one wants to lose the chance to be on a district or national team. Plus unlike normal schools in sports schools you have enough training, even if you do track, to use up all the steam. non of the 2 hours of PE per week and you can run in the corridors, meaning magic happens, when supervisors aren't around.

I went to a sports school precisly because I had problems with normal schools. saying that the schools and people in them are toxic males is stupid. What about the all the girls from girl classes, they are toxic men too?

Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.

So another words you are teaching someone that they don't have to try, that nothing bad happens, and that nice people will always let you win. This more or less means you would have to do it all their life, and never play real games, because the moment they play a real one, all the feel good stuff is gone, unless they picked a power faction. also false confidance and spending money is a very bad idea.

No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.

what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.

And all of this time, you're what? Staying silent? Waiting to make an easy kill, and take their scalp? If you're teaching someone and they like the space clowns, you can actually engage with them as their peer, maybe even accomodate. I'd point out the harlies probsbly won't do on their own in the hyper competitive scene, and that he would probsbly have to game-build around that fact. Not everyone wants to play cut throats top tier tournament lists. And that's ok. And I say this as someone who is quite happy to accommodate. We, as players have as much of an ability to deal with these things too, and if you ask me, we also have the incentive to do this.

why would someone who is selling models or who has a harly army to sell tell anyone to a new player that the army is bad? it would be going against his own interests to sell a bad army or models that are clogging his store.
It has nothing to do with going to tournaments, or at least I don't see what it has suppose to have to do with them.

You know Karol, crushing kids like that on their first day, or exposure to the sport isn't how most folks approach life. It's not healthy. Crushing people. Knocking them out etc - It doesn't necessarily make people humble or learn better. Hell, depending on the person there's every chance they just won't learn, they'll just break. Its just institutional bullying and reinforces a power dynamic where you are helpless.

how else do you teach respect? People thing they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff. Or that they were part of a team as younglings, wrestling in full protection gear. Having your first real fight and someone else overpowering you like a rag doll, is not a good thing, it feels horrible. But it is a great base for never wanting for it to happen to you ever again. If someone cuddles you with feel good stuff and lies about how stuff really looks, then you are in for a rough ride. heck you could have 4 weeks of cuddled training, then have your first fight, bust a joint or muscle, and your dreams of ever becoming a sports man just went down the drain. heck you can't even stay in school if you can't fully recover. w40k is the same. 1 month of honey moon period of people letting you win in tutorial games, making you feel good, you buy in to you think is good based on the tutorial games you just played. And suddenly GW decides to errata or faq stuff, and not only is the stuff you just paid hard cash for bad, but also you suddenly find out that the tutorial games weren't very indicative of how real games look like.

For this way of playing, people would have to tutorial game each other all the time, never stop. And on top of it only play with and against more or less equal in power armies.

My first game was atrocious, I lost 67 of 68 models on the first turn to shooting, His Ad Mech vs My Marines, 7th Edition. It felt awful and I wanted to quit. Fortunately I met a group who didn't care about Min/Maxing and pushing teeth in. Those are the people I play the game with and it's a much, much better experience.

**ccs**

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't have one. As I said, I've probably played my last live game of 8th.

Well then, seeing as 8th edition is no longer your concern, if you're going to stick around just have mercy on the rest of us & just stop complaining about it.

**Martel732**

I said live game. And mercy is for the weak.

**Overread**

Martel732 wrote:
I said live game. And mercy is for the weak.

I'm not sure its healthy for your mental state to be both playing a game you hate AND playing with the undead - especially considering that thus far necromancy has a very poor track record of actually working so chances are you're just going to be playing yourself. ;P

**BrookM**

Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.

Thanks!

**BrianDavion**

BrookM wrote:
Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.

Thanks!

It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community

**harlokin**

BrianDavion wrote:
BrookM wrote:
Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.

Thanks!

It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community

Agree 100%, can't exalt enough.

**shortymcnostrill**

harlokin wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
BrookM wrote:
Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.

Thanks!

It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community

Agree 100%, can't exalt enough.

Yeah, join our "Everything is awesome" club or get out! On a serious note: while I don't necessarily agree with every criticism (or praise) of 40k/gw I read, I do appreciate that people are free to voice these opinions here.

On-topic: I'd definitely orchestrate a tutorial-like game for a starting player, where winning or losing aren't the focus of the game. I still remember my first whfantasy game in my local gw way back when, where my fluffy character-heavy tzeentch beastmen army was completely obliterated by an optimized dwarf castle list in a very onesided battle. It was no fun, I didn't learn much about the core game mechanics and I never bothered to play there again.

**JNAProductions**

My first game was an Apoc game, back in late 6th/early 7th.

I sorta knew what was going on (though made some mistakes because I didn't fully know) but had a blast. The guy who organized it was the best!

**Martel732**

BrianDavion wrote:
BrookM wrote:
Hey guys, kindly stay on topic, remain polite and if you got nothing of note that actively contributes to the topic at hand, then please don't drag things off topic.

Thanks!

It's literally impossiable for a new comer to the game to come to DakkaDakka and ask how to start without the thread basicly being hijacked by the "40k sux" troll brigade. Seems to be a problem if we value a growing community

People are free to listen to whom they chose to believe. Sounds like you are afraid of even tangentially contrary opinions.

**Vaktathi**

This thread appears to unfortunately have reached the end of its productive life.